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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:24:14 PM EDT
[#1]
image from scene.
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:26:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd say that it demonstrates why they shouldn't escalate to that point in the first place. Had the homeowner been a better shot and taken out a few of the yard crew and the police officer attempting to serve the warrant, would you still say that it was a good idea to bring it to that point? Dude, you said they should have fined him... they did... they set a court date, he no showed, at that point they finally got a warrant and sent in the lawn crew to clean up his yard. Do you think they should have just left the yard like that, and just kept sending fines and having him no show for court? The people of Austin seem to think it's better to have the city clean up his yard, or they'd be calling for that law to be removed. What does his accuracy have to do with this? Thats about the dumbest thing you've typed in this thread and it has no bearing on my opinion of the incident. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:27:39 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:27:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, you just can't reason like I do. I am right in my view of the situation. Stop blaming anyone other than the homeowner. As I said earlier, I blame the homeowner for what happened from the point that he started trying to shoot people. I'll blame him for not mowing his lawn, too, since people who let their lawns go to shit annoy me. But I blame the city and the judge (and by extension the code enforcement officer and the police) for escalating it to a situation that involved the introduction of a man with a badge and gun to someone's door over high grass. It shouldn't have involved police. If you think that a situation involving high grass should involve police - and by their very nature and presence, the potential use fo force and the threat of incarceration - then you belong in 1930s Germany, not Texas. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:30:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, you said they should have fined him... they did... they set a court date, he no showed, at that point they finally got a warrant and sent in the lawn crew to clean up his yard. Do you think they should have just left the yard like that, and just kept sending fines and having him no show for court? The people of Austin seem to think it's better to have the city clean up his yard, or they'd be calling for that law to be removed. What does his accuracy have to do with this? Thats about the dumbest thing you've typed in this thread and it has no bearing on my opinion of the incident. I already said - twice - that when he ignores the fine, you assess the penalty on his taxes. It's not a situation that should involve the use of force. I don't think that high grass is a situation that should involve the police. You do. That's a gap that we're not gonna bridge. The people of Austin are collectively a bunch of fucking retards BTW. I used to work there and can personally attest to that fact. Accuracy isn't the point. My point there was that you think that this was a good outcome and that the policy of sending cops for this shit is good policy. What I asked was whether you'd still think it was good policy had there been a higher body count, because next time there might be. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:37:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I already said - twice - that when he ignores the fine, you assess the penalty on his taxes. It's not a situation that should involve the use of force. I don't think that high grass is a situation that should involve the police. You do. That's a gap that we're not gonna bridge. The people of Austin are collectively a bunch of fucking retards BTW. I used to work there and can personally attest to that fact. Accuracy isn't the point. My point there was that you think that this was a good outcome and that the policy of sending cops for this shit is good policy. What I asked was whether you'd still think it was good policy had there been a higher body count, because next time there might be. And what happens when the guy doesn't pay his higher property taxes? They take his house, and send in the cops when he refuses to leave. Until that point, his yard is still a mess that his neighbors get to deal with. Seems like they just skipped a step with how they currently do it. Everything in this country is enforced under the threat of violence from the state. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:39:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...Everything in this country is enforced under the threat of violence from the state. Including not mowing your lawn when told to by the government. Right? Do you see the problem yet? If you'd told me 10 years ago that we'd now be living in a country where men with guns would show up to your house and make you mow your lawn or else you'll go to jail (or worse), I wouldn't have believed you. But here we are. And most of you guys have no problem with it. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:41:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Including not mowing your lawn when told to by the government. Right? Do you see the problem yet? It only escalates to violence when you refuse to comply. Typically that violence comes in the form of being restrained/arrested. This moron escalated to lethal violence and was met with a lethal response. There is no other way to enforce rules than with violence being at the bottom line. If it's not there, then it's not enforceable. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:43:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Including not mowing your lawn when told to by the government. Right? Do you see the problem yet? If you'd told me 10 years ago that we'd now be living in a country where men with guns would show up to your house and make you mow your lawn or else you'll go to jail (or worse), I wouldn't have believed you. But here we are. And most of you guys have no problem with it. They weren't there to make him mow his lawn. They were there to try and make sure he didnt get violent with the people being brought in to mow his lawn. He did, so they did their job. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:43:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It only escalates to violence when you refuse to comply. Typically that violence comes in the form of being restrained/arrested. This moron escalated to lethal violence and was met with a lethal response. There is no other way to enforce rules than with violence being at the bottom line. If it's not there, then it's not enforceable. Mow your lawn, citizen, or we'll fuck you up. Right? So you're telling me you'd arrest someone for not mowing their lawn? |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:44:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They weren't there to make him mow his lawn. They were there to try and make sure he didnt get violent with the people being brought in to mow his lawn. He did, so they did their job. Stop playing with words to hide meaning. They were there to ensure that his lawn got mowed, and they were ready to use force against him if necessary. And take away his freedom. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:46:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stop playing with words to hide meaning. They were there to ensure that his lawn got mowed, and they were ready to use force against him if necessary. And take away his freedom. Ok, you've officially hit the bottom, have fun pounding your head against the wall of the hole you've dug yourself into. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:46:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, you've officially hit the bottom, have fun pounding your head against the wall of the hole you've dug yourself into. Dodge. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:49:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dodge. Nah man, not taking taking the time to argue with someone who can't tell the difference between being forced to do something, and being forced to not do something. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:51:12 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nah man, not taking taking the time to argue with someone who can't tell the difference between being forced to do something, and being forced to not do something. That's cool, it's almost certainly a waste of both of our time. I just wanted to get one of you guys to admit that you'd use force against someone over a lawn. Or deprive them of their freedom. Over high grass. America in 2021 is so great. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:55:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, I see. So if he ignores the letters, THEN it's OK to kill him. Got it. There is no situation where escalating to lethal violence over a lawn dispute is appropriate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They did, he probably got letters before they sent a guy to mow the lawn Ah, I see. So if he ignores the letters, THEN it's OK to kill him. Got it. There is no situation where escalating to lethal violence over a lawn dispute is appropriate. You probably should have told him that before he shot at people. I forgot, you hate cops, so it's always the cops' fault |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:55:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryGuys sure like their multicam and suiting up just like the troops. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 3:57:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You probably should have told him that before he shot at people. I forgot, you hate cops, so it's always the cops' fault I don't hate cops. I just don't trust them anymore. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:01:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's cool, it's almost certainly a waste of both of our time. I just wanted to get one of you guys to admit that you'd use force against someone over a lawn. Or deprive them of their freedom. Over high grass. America in 2021 is so great. Anyone curious, this is a great example of a strawman |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:01:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand that. They sent SWAT because the guy went kinetic. But it never should have escalated to that point in the first place. You can't convince me that the code compliance and city guys don't bear some responsibility for escalating it. Ultimately, this guy is dead because he didn't comply. That's what it really boils down to. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:05:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It only escalates to violence when you refuse to comply. Typically that violence comes in the form of being restrained/arrested. This moron escalated to lethal violence and was met with a lethal response. There is no other way to enforce rules than with violence being at the bottom line. If it's not there, then it's not enforceable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Including not mowing your lawn when told to by the government. Right? Do you see the problem yet? It only escalates to violence when you refuse to comply. Typically that violence comes in the form of being restrained/arrested. This moron escalated to lethal violence and was met with a lethal response. There is no other way to enforce rules than with violence being at the bottom line. If it's not there, then it's not enforceable. StarShip Troopers. Government is Force. A force for good. A force for bad. But force, or the threat of it makes society work. It has the right & obligation to make citizens or subjects obey the laws (rules like no stealing, no killing & if you agreed to live in a fancy neighborhood like Circle C with clear restrictive covenants to cut your fucking grass - or at least don't shoot at those doing it).  Guy was a crazy & stupid paranoid retard, but likely died a "Hero" to a few people in this thread & G.D.  Bigger_Hammer 
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:07:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryHow so? I stated in that post that ultimately, the guy is dead because he didn't comply. Well a nice policeman just a few posts up essentially confirmed that. The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. I asked another cop a few posts up a different scenario. You're the officer, knock on his door. He answers, doesn't start shooting, but he says to fuck off, you can't mow his lawn. He won't comply. Are you gonna try and restrain him? Are you gonna arrest him for not complying? If the answer to those questions is "Yes", then you're willing to use force and deprive a person of his freedom over a lawn dispute. And that's really, really messed up. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:12:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How so? I stated in that post that ultimately, the guy is dead because he didn't comply. Well a nice policeman just a few posts up essentially confirmed that. The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. I asked another cop a few posts up a different scenario. You're the officer, knock on his door. He answers, doesn't start shooting, but he says to fuck off, you can't mow his lawn. He won't comply. Are you gonna try and restrain him? Are you gonna arrest him for not complying? If the answer to those questions is "Yes", then you're willing to use force and deprive a person of his freedom over a lawn dispute. And that's really, really messed up.  Attached File... im not a cop |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:16:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOK, got it. You sound like one. I'd like some cops to answer the questions directed at cops. Could be more meaningful. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:17:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It only escalates to violence when you refuse to comply. Typically that violence comes in the form of being restrained/arrested. This moron escalated to lethal violence and was met with a lethal response. There is no other way to enforce rules than with violence being at the bottom line. If it's not there, then it's not enforceable.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:17:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why are police forcing people to mow their lawns? The city I work for has a lawn ordnance. They’ll just send public works out and mow your lawn, and then send you the bill, and then place a lien on your property if you refuse to pay. We also have a trash can ordnance. If you leave your can on the curb for more than 24 hours, you can be fined up to $1000. Karens (in the case of the trash can thing, a city council member that had a dispute with his neighbor in their gated community) love to control. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:18:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. Correct. Incorrect. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:19:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. Incorrect. Why was the cop there? If he wasn't there to imply the threat of force/incarceration, then what was he there for? And if that's what he was there for (it was), is that something that should be in play over high grass? Look, if you believe that someone should be arrested over their failure to cut their grass, then we're just not gonna agree on that. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:20:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why was the cop there? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct. Incorrect. Why was the cop there? Read the article. Doesn't matter. You're going to believe what you want, regardless of facts. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:22:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read the article. Doesn't matter. You're going to believe what you want, regardless of facts. I have read it. And the other one. I don't expect you to actually answer the question. There's not a good answer there. That's my point. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:25:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The city I work for has a lawn ordnance. They’ll just send public works out and mow your lawn, and then send you the bill, and then place a lien on your property if you refuse to pay. We also have a trash can ordnance. If you leave your can on the curb for more than 24 hours, you can be fined up to $1000. Karens (in the case of the trash can thing, a city council member that had a dispute with his neighbor in their gated community) love to control. I'm really thankful I don't live in a place like that. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:27:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. Incorrect. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. Correct. Incorrect. Well he stated his refusal to comply by opening fire so he's kind of correct. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:30:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm really thankful I don't live in a place like that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The city I work for has a lawn ordnance. They’ll just send public works out and mow your lawn, and then send you the bill, and then place a lien on your property if you refuse to pay. We also have a trash can ordnance. If you leave your can on the curb for more than 24 hours, you can be fined up to $1000. Karens (in the case of the trash can thing, a city council member that had a dispute with his neighbor in their gated community) love to control. I'm really thankful I don't live in a place like that. When people are packed in tight in cities you tend to get ordinances to avoid having a nice piece of property you maintain but have someone with 3 foot high grass and 6 junk cars in the front yard right next door. It sucks to live next to someone who wants to live in squalor. Personally I'm just trying to get to somewhere I can't see my neighbors unless I drive a half mile down the road to avoid all this and live in the squalor I want to. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:32:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm really thankful I don't live in a place like that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The city I work for has a lawn ordnance. They’ll just send public works out and mow your lawn, and then send you the bill, and then place a lien on your property if you refuse to pay. We also have a trash can ordnance. If you leave your can on the curb for more than 24 hours, you can be fined up to $1000. Karens (in the case of the trash can thing, a city council member that had a dispute with his neighbor in their gated community) love to control. I'm really thankful I don't live in a place like that. Me too. When the trash can ordnance passed, it was in the middle of last summer. I’m paraphrasing here, but another councilman was asked if that was an important priority during a pandemic. Homeboy said something to the effect of “well, everyone else on the council was voting for it, so it must be.” |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:34:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well he stated his refusal to comply by opening fire so he's kind of correct. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. Correct. Incorrect. Well he stated his refusal to comply by opening fire so he's kind of correct.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:38:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to defer to law enforcement reflexively, always gave them the benefit of the doubt. I even used to have a thin blue line sticker on my car. But given how they've behaved over the past year and a half, they don't get that from me anymore. Let me ask you this, super-cop: Say you're that officer, and the dude answers the door. He doesn't shoot at you, but he tells you all to fuck off, and won't allow your crew to mow his lawn. Are you gonna arrest him? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lol man your dug in so hard even when shown to be wrong. It's amazing how critical folks are of LE who have zero knowledge of what we do or how we do it I used to defer to law enforcement reflexively, always gave them the benefit of the doubt. I even used to have a thin blue line sticker on my car. But given how they've behaved over the past year and a half, they don't get that from me anymore. Let me ask you this, super-cop: Say you're that officer, and the dude answers the door. He doesn't shoot at you, but he tells you all to fuck off, and won't allow your crew to mow his lawn. Are you gonna arrest him? No. But I'd also never be in that position because we don't have those protocols |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:39:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Good shoot.
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:42:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read this story yesterday. You Texas guys take your yards seriously. They sent code enforcement officers and sheriffs dept to serve a search warrant to mow his yard? No, Austin did. You know land of liberals that will use the police to deal with a lawn issue, but won't arrest or prosecute people for shoplifting and stealing. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:43:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. But I'd also never be in that position because we don't have those protocols Well, it looks like APD does. And it seems that most LEOs wouldn't have much of a problem with it. My only real beef here is that this isn't a situation that should involve the police or the use of force (or incarceration) - or the threat of it. At no point have I said that the homeowner was correct or that what he did was justified. I've just said that this shouldn't have involved the police, and it shouldn't have escalated to this point. If police in this country are willing to arrest people for failure to bend the knee in lawn disputes, then we have a serious problem. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:43:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems to me he wasn't shot because his grass was too tall. I'm guessing he'd have survived that just fine if he hadn't set his own house on fire and shot at the cops. Oh well. Conform to city code. Also wear your mask!! |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:44:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It shouldn't have involved police. If you think that a situation involving high grass should involve police - and by their very nature and presence, the potential use fo force and the threat of incarceration - then you belong in 1930s Germany, not Texas. They send in a police dude because idiot people can become violent in what should be a simple matter. Would you rather that several foo foo conflict resolution people go instead of police? |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:45:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In cities (including small cities/towns etc) there are often city ordinances requiring people to mow their lawn. If they don't they get a letter or notice, eventually the city send a guy they hire to mow the lawn and bill the owner, usually it's pretty expensive, otherwise everyone would let the city mow their lawn Overgrown lawns in cities attract vermin like deer, foxes, skunks, rats etc that you don't really want in a urban or suburban setting Ever wonder why it costs so much when the city sends their "contractor"? Because the contractor is a buddy of someone in city hall. All the cities around here have lawn crews that mow city parks and medians. Why aren't these guys sent in to mow a non compliant yard for actual city cost? |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:47:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryThat can’t be the lawn in question, can it? |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:48:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever wonder why it costs so much when the city sends their "contractor"? Because the contractor is a buddy of someone in city hall. All the cities around here have lawn crews that mow city parks and medians. Why aren't these guys sent in to mow a non compliant yard for actual city cost? Those public works guys are probably making $20/hr from the time they pull in the parking lot to the time they leave. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:51:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. Incorrect. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The guy is dead because he was a dumbass and went kinetic over a lawn dispute. But he's also dead because he refused to comply. Correct. Incorrect. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:51:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, it looks like APD does. And it seems that most LEOs wouldn't have much of a problem with it. My only real beef here is that this isn't a situation that should involve the police or the use of force (or incarceration) - or the threat of it. At no point have I said that the homeowner was correct or that what he did was justified. I've just said that this shouldn't have involved the police, and it shouldn't have escalated to this point. If police in this country are willing to arrest people for failure to bend the knee in lawn disputes, then we have a serious problem. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No. But I'd also never be in that position because we don't have those protocols Well, it looks like APD does. And it seems that most LEOs wouldn't have much of a problem with it. My only real beef here is that this isn't a situation that should involve the police or the use of force (or incarceration) - or the threat of it. At no point have I said that the homeowner was correct or that what he did was justified. I've just said that this shouldn't have involved the police, and it shouldn't have escalated to this point. If police in this country are willing to arrest people for failure to bend the knee in lawn disputes, then we have a serious problem. Having been doing this a decent amount of time, I firmly believe we are involved in tons of crap we shouldn't be. That said, I do believe civil stand bys are appropriate for these type matters. Dude had his chance to say his piece and fight in court. He ignored it, and then fired upon people when those consequences came knocking |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 4:58:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But he's also dead because he refused to comply. He is dead because he shot at people. How do you come up with these unsupportable assertions? |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 5:11:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When people are packed in tight in cities you tend to get ordinances to avoid having a nice piece of property you maintain but have someone with 3 foot high grass and 6 junk cars in the front yard right next door. It sucks to live next to someone who wants to live in squalor. This has nothing to do with squalor or public health. It's because boomers treat housing as investment vehicles and are psychotic about preserving their investment. To them someone not cutting their grass and thus affecting property values is literally taking money out of their banking account. |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 5:13:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about you send him a fucking fine or summons instead of assaulting his home with SWAT? Seems the situation could have been addressed in a way that didn't involve trespassing or the use of force. Because where you grew up, the correct response to someone shooting at police was to send a summons? The police didn't assault his home until he fired on them. They were there to serve a warrant that essentially ordered the lawn cut by a contractor. He didn't answer the door, so the contractor started cutting the lawn, and the guy decided to start shooting. Mike |
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Posted: 10/29/2021 5:15:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He snapped. Getting swatted over grass probably did it, but go ahead and pretend misuse of SWAT had nothing to do it. Misuse of SWAT had nothing to do it. |
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