[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Draft (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/16/2002 5:44:57 PM EDT
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MSNBC Hardball...Should the Draft Return...You have to watch this. Edit Never mind it's over thought it was going to be longer. But I'm sure views will be stated here. |
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If done right, the draft is a beautiful thing. I think now would definitely be the time to reinstitute it. The benefits include giving some basic military training to all young adults (men AND WOMEN!) so that they can step up to the plate if needed, even years after they've been discharged. I think it's also important to teach people that you have to give back to your country, and it doesn't hurt to spend a year serving your country. ... Unless you get shot, I guess that would hurt [:D] |
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i'm not sure about the draft. its a good and a bad thing. personally, i think we should have a mandatory service obligation, though. here's my thoughts: before your 21st birthday (male [b]and[/b] female), you have to be on-record as having done one of the following: attempted enlistment into the branch of service of your choice, for a period of not less than one-year active duty, or contracted into a comissioning program for the branch of service of your choice, also for not less than one-year of active duty. in my opinion, this is better than the draft because: 1) EVERYBODY has to do it, not just people whose number is picked 2) its not as forceful as the draft. more satisfaction. you get more say in your MOS/career path. 3) people who don't do service have a legitimate reason to complain ("i didn't serve because {this/that/the other thing} disqualified me") 4) it gives you a little room to decide *when* you're going to do it well, i hope that made some sense out |
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Geez you freakin fascists. What about letting people decide how they want to live their lives? We should make people have to do things ordered by corrupt govt. officials? Force people to go fight on the wrong side in Bosnia cause the President gets a boner? What about freedom? I can't believe you assholes. Oh wait, I'm 35. Draft away. [:D] |
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Quoted: i'm not sure about the draft. its a good and a bad thing. personally, i think we should have a mandatory service obligation, though. here's my thoughts: before your 21st birthday (male [b]and[/b] female), you have to be on-record as having done one of the following: attempted enlistment into the branch of service of your choice, for a period of not less than one-year active duty, or contracted into a comissioning program for the branch of service of your choice, also for not less than one-year of active duty. in my opinion, this is better than the draft because: 1) EVERYBODY has to do it, not just people whose number is picked 2) its not as forceful as the draft. more satisfaction. you get more say in your MOS/career path. 3) people who don't do service have a legitimate reason to complain ("i didn't serve because {this/that/the other thing} disqualified me") 4) it gives you a little room to decide *when* you're going to do it well, i hope that made some sense out How about everyone before 21 get to work in a mandatory peoples factory for one year to serve this country. Sorry, but we here live in the USA not USSR. |
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Sorry, but the draft is not Constitutional. For starters: Amendment. XIII. [Proposed 1865; Ratified 1865] Section. 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Section. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. --- Then there is the fact that the Founders always intended the Military to be voluntary. See [url=http://www.libertystory.net/LSDOCWEBSTERCONSCRIPTION.htm]Daniel Webster's speech[/url], [url=file:///Volumes/Documents/Political%20Stuff/Constitution%20Info/Draft/conscri1.html#intro]CONSCRIPTION AND THE CONSTITUTION: THE ORIGINAL UNDERSTANDING[/url](which is a 1969 Law Article, which hosted on an anti-gun site, but it actually serves to bolster gun rights-go figure), and [url=http://www.guncite.com/journals/amar.html]The Bill of Rights as a Constitution[/url]. |
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Sorry, don't care much for endentured servitude. Just replace military service with 'cultural awareness and sensitivity training' and see how many draft supports object to that kind of draft. Come on, they can be both be declared good for the country, depending on who is in power at the time. Plus, having freedom contingent on years of involuntary service is completely contradictory. |
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[b]7 wrote: How about everyone before 21 get to work in a mandatory peoples factory for one year to serve this country. Sorry, but we here live in the USA not USSR.[/b] So is Israel concidered the USSR? Just wondering. Israel has a mandatory service for all that are over 18 if I remember right, then they have a mandatory reservist time also. I think that the draft should be reinstated, I noticed someone said that the draft was unconstitutional, then if this is so, then how did the United States do it in previous years. Know my history is a little fuzzy so I could be wrong but was there not a draft for World War I, World War II, and Veitnam? Or was there just a draft for Veitnam? Anway, I know for sure that there was a draft for Veitnam, how did the United States government do this without breaking the laws. Because if the draft was illegal, you would figure that with all the liberals out there back then and know, someone would have tried to take there case to the Supreme Court for a constitutional violation? I think that if the draft was reinstated it would be a good thing, although I can see all the anti draft, anti war crapp that went on in the 60's and early 70's rise up again though! If this were to happen again, then it would take a very well crafted counter attack towards groups to defeat it. |
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I don't mean to offend anyone in particular, but part of the resistance to the draft expressed in this thread illustrates exactly what's wrong with the country today. Everyone is too busy pointing to their RIGHTS and insisting that nobody can make them do anything. Suddenly serving your country is "indentured servitude" and likend to "slavery". The only reason you have all of these cool rights is that someone FOUGHT and DIED so that you could have them. Why should you be the spoiled child who gets something for nothing? Isn't it fair that you also should have to risk fighting and dying, so that future generations are guaranteed the same rights that you feel so entitled to? That kind of attitude sickens me. [:(] |
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Quoted: I don't mean to offend anyone in particular, but part of the resistance to the draft expressed in this thread illustrates exactly what's wrong with the country today. Everyone is too busy pointing to their RIGHTS and insisting that nobody can make them do anything. Suddenly serving your country is "indentured servitude" and likend to "slavery". The only reason you have all of these cool rights is that someone FOUGHT and DIED so that you could have them. Why should you be the spoiled child who gets something for nothing? Isn't it fair that you also should have to risk fighting and dying, so that future generations are guaranteed the same rights that you feel so entitled to? That kind of attitude sickens me. [:(] I am opposed to the draft, just as I am opposed to any form of involuntary servitude. But don't call me a spoiled child, my 10 years service as of this December, and the next 10-20 I plan on staying in, say more than your opinion. I serve, but I serve of my own free will. Do you? |
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Two things shoudl be implemented, firstly, to be able to vote, you need to have served, doesn't matter if you served by pushing crates around a stateside warehouse or on the front lines, killing people with your teeth and bare hands. Service is mandatory for the vote. If you are not willing to put yourself on the line for this country, why should you have a say in how it is run? Secondly, veterans of any sort should be given a 50% tax break on all taxes. (of course, once only veterans can vote, I think this would be a shoe in.) |
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Quoted: Oh wait, I'm 35. Draft away. [:D] I hear ya! I'm 43, and blind as a bat. Tried to enlist in 1979 and they wouldn't even talk to me. [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lol.gif[/img] Draft is excellent idea! For both men and women! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img] |
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Quoted: I don't mean to offend anyone in particular, but part of the resistance to the draft expressed in this thread illustrates exactly what's wrong with the country today. Everyone is too busy pointing to their RIGHTS and insisting that nobody can make them do anything. Suddenly serving your country is "indentured servitude" and likend to "slavery". The only reason you have all of these cool rights is that someone FOUGHT and DIED so that you could have them. Why should you be the spoiled child who gets something for nothing? Isn't it fair that you also should have to risk fighting and dying, so that future generations are guaranteed the same rights that you feel so entitled to? That kind of attitude sickens me. [:(] I disagree. Military conscription should only be activated when the situation calls for it. In any other situation it is, in effect, an acknowledgement of internal military failures. Comparing us to Israel in this case is an invalid comparison, as their situation definately calls for it. As an alternative, the government should look into properly funding the military, which would in turn promote longer tenure, and more successful recruiting efforts (also get higher quality recruits). This would more than likely be far cheaper for the taxpayer than the logistics, legalities, and motivation problems conscription would cause. Conscription should be the LAST option to military planners, as it is indeed a desparate measure. If you are for it only becase you think it would be good for the youth, you are effectivly supporting one form of social engineering. You should love this country for reasons beyond the fact that if you don't a drill sargent will stomp you. |
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Quoted: Two things shoudl be implemented, firstly, to be able to vote, you need to have served, doesn't matter if you served by pushing crates around a stateside warehouse or on the front lines, killing people with your teeth and bare hands. Service is mandatory for the vote. If you are not willing to put yourself on the line for this country, why should you have a say in how it is run? Secondly, veterans of any sort should be given a 50% tax break on all taxes. (of course, once only veterans can vote, I think this would be a shoe in.) What you are desiring is a caste society. Very, very unAmerican. Opinions like this are EXACTLY why it's good that civilians control the armed forces in this country. Your solution would be to rig that.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Two things shoudl be implemented, firstly, to be able to vote, you need to have served, doesn't matter if you served by pushing crates around a stateside warehouse or on the front lines, killing people with your teeth and bare hands. Service is mandatory for the vote. If you are not willing to put yourself on the line for this country, why should you have a say in how it is run? Secondly, veterans of any sort should be given a 50% tax break on all taxes. (of course, once only veterans can vote, I think this would be a shoe in.) What you are desiring is a caste society. Very, very unAmerican. Opinions like this are EXACTLY why it's good that civilians control the armed forces in this country. Your solution would be to rig that.... No, no caste here, there are those people who value the vote and will do what is neccesary to earn it, and there are those who do not value it and do not want to earn it, who would you prefer pulling the lever in the voting booth? Holy God, we might even have *gasp* an informed electorate... No one would be turned away from serving, not even if you were a 90 year old deaf mute blind homosexual, everyone could do their part. Anyone who realized that the vote was important could go ahead and serve. No caste there, just motivated people. |
| just wondering what kind of morale there would be from people who dont want to be there. In Israel there is no population base so the Govt & people believe its necessary to serve as a matter of survival. Americans just dont think that way. I know just as many people forced to join the military as an alternative to jail then ones who go in voluntarily. Americans dont want to do their part. I helped at ground zero for 2 weeks. I had no useful skills that would benefit the recovery , so i served food and gave out masks and water, and washed a lot of eyes. Everybody can do something. |
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Quoted: i am torn on that issue. I feel everyone living here has a DUTY to serve at least some time. Whether they should be forced to is something i don't know about. I have NO DOUBT it would be a good thing for society and the country as a whole. I feel the same way... I think the current system is fairly good- you don't have to serve, but you SHOULD serve. And, I feel that there's more honor in serving by choice rather than being forced to by law or economic circumstance. QS |
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I for one do think that the Draft is unconstitutional. I did promtly sign up with Selective Service when I hit 18. Having said that, I think every American student should serve at least one year if not two following High School, in a military/ROTC type training program. This program would cover aspects of military service, how the military operates, basic military skills like firearm training & marksmanship, survival skills, emergency field medicine, understanding and recognising military rank, military history and service to veterans. In the event of a major event, there would be a trained pool of people ready, it would be easier to establish a chain of command in a disaster, civilians would recognise the ranks of military & ex military in uniform and give them the respect that they deserve. All in all, there would be alot less Liberal Pussy Zombies running around during a disaster with that "Deer in the Headlights" look, lost, trying to find their ass with both hands. |
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The Marines don't want a draft. (most of you civilians are too NASTY) Why dilute an effective fighting force with a mob of whining, disgruntled weaklings? [:)] If we need more troops, and the need is dire, all the president needs to do is ask. I'm sure many of you finer citizens will hear the call. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I think the real question is, should teams draft for need or just take the best player available in that round? [:D] Personally, I am a "best player available" proponent. I agree. When you start drafting for need, you run into situations like the Jets taking Kyle Brady in the first round instead of Warren Sapp. |
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I don't think a draft is necessary for two reasons. First, we don't need one and I don't think we are likely to run across another war in which we need massive numbers of soldiers. While technology can never replace ground pounders, it certainly can lessen the need for them. Second, we did pretty well with volunteers in the Gulf War, and currently in Afganistan. As long as we continue to give our soldiers the best equipment and training, then young people, and reserves and national guard, will continue to enlist and serve. BTW, my draft lottery number was 116 in 1971, I am still waiting to be called. |
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Quoted: Quoted: i'm not sure about the draft. its a good and a bad thing. personally, i think we should have a mandatory service obligation, though. here's my thoughts: before your 21st birthday (male [b]and[/b] female), you have to be on-record as having done one of the following: attempted enlistment into the branch of service of your choice, for a period of not less than one-year active duty, or contracted into a comissioning program for the branch of service of your choice, also for not less than one-year of active duty. in my opinion, this is better than the draft because: 1) EVERYBODY has to do it, not just people whose number is picked 2) its not as forceful as the draft. more satisfaction. you get more say in your MOS/career path. 3) people who don't do service have a legitimate reason to complain ("i didn't serve because {this/that/the other thing} disqualified me") 4) it gives you a little room to decide *when* you're going to do it well, i hope that made some sense out How about everyone before 21 get to work in a mandatory peoples factory for one year to serve this country. Sorry, but we here live in the USA not USSR. I actually came close to putting another "or" option in with enlisting or joining a commissioning program. the reason i didn't, is because military service is valuble, even if you joined to serve hamburgers on a ship, or to fill out paperwork at an AG station, or to sit in an air conditioned office in southern california watching radar screens. that third choice, however, would have been to volunteer for an alternative public service government organization (FD, PD, etc) |
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Quoted: But don't call me a spoiled child, my 10 years service as of this December, and the next 10-20 I plan on staying in, say more than your opinion. I serve, but I serve of my own free will. Do you? My apologies G_S - it came out wrong. What I was trying to say was that people who are constantly yelling about their "rights" and their entitlement, but who are not interested in their responsibilities or obligations rub me the wrong way - and sometimes the "gimme, gimme, gimme" attitude seems like that of spoiled children. You certainly fall into the category of someone who understands service and responsbility, and I'm sorry if I accidentally offended you. I've served myself, three years active and several more national guard/reserve. Even though my country has a draft, I served in an all-volunteer regiment. When I moved to the U.S. and became a permanent resident, I immediately registered for Selective Service. |
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Quoted: The Marines don't want a draft. (most of you civilians are too NASTY) Why dilute an effective fighting force with a mob of whining, disgruntled weaklings? [:)] If we need more troops, and the need is dire, all the president needs to do is ask. I'm sure many of you finer citizens will here the call. I have to agree there killer, but I also think anyone with good character would be proud and find it his friggin job, his MORAL DUTY to serve somehow, even if its the air farce. On the other hand, do you want some poor weak minded bastard there in th fghting positoin with you??? FUCK that. You're 100% right devil dawg. |
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The draft is not technically constitutional since it involves involuntary servitude. Requiring military service to achieve citizenship is also unconstitutional. Such a measure clearly puts the federal government in a state of sovereignty over the populace, which is not what the Founders ever had in mind. The people impose their will on government through the Constitution. That's how it is written and that is how our government is intended. Government By the People, Of the People and For the People. It is a necessary evil to be restricted as much as possible. By requiring that all persons wishing full citizenship to become employees of the government for a period of time, you turn that concept of sovereignty on it's head. Heinlein had an excellent grasp on the concept of duty and honor, but the governmental principles laid down in Starship Troopers were broken. |
| The Marines don't want a draft.....? When I enlisted in the Navy in 1968 instead of being drafted I saw the following. I was in a room in the MEPPs station, they put enlistees (me) on one side of the room and draftees on the other. After listening to a Army clerk tell us enlistees how dumb we were for enlisting I observed a Marine officer come into the room followed by an NCO with a clip board. They lined the draftees up and the Marine went down the line: him, this one, this one etc. The rest were told to return to the seats. The new "Marines" were taken out of the room. |
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The draft (AKA Selective Service) is not unConstitutional involuntary servitude. Section Ten of the United States Code defines all male citizens and resident aliens between the ages of 17 and 45 as being members of the unorganized militia, and as such are liable to call up for Federal service. The men who wrote the Constitution were quite familiar with this concept. People who are drafted are technically militiamen called to active duty. |
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Quoted: i'm not sure about the draft. its a good and a bad thing. personally, i think we should have a mandatory service obligation, though. here's my thoughts: before your 21st birthday (male [b]and[/b] female), you have to be on-record as having done one of the following: attempted enlistment into the branch of service of your choice, for a period of not less than one-year active duty, or contracted into a comissioning program for the branch of service of your choice, also for not less than one-year of active duty. in my opinion, this is better than the draft because: 1) EVERYBODY has to do it, not just people whose number is picked 2) its not as forceful as the draft. more satisfaction. you get more say in your MOS/career path. 3) people who don't do service have a legitimate reason to complain ("i didn't serve because {this/that/the other thing} disqualified me") 4) it gives you a little room to decide *when* you're going to do it well, i hope that made some sense out How about this: Go to college for a "reasonable" degree or go to the military. I always thought that would be better then what we have now anyways |
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Quoted: Geez you freakin fascists. What about letting people decide how they want to live their lives? We should make people have to do things ordered by corrupt govt. officials? Force people to go fight on the wrong side in Bosnia cause the President gets a boner? What about freedom? I can't believe you assholes. Oh wait, I'm 35. Draft away. [:D] Oh, they just raised the draft age to 37. |
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Quoted: The draft (AKA Selective Service) is not unConstitutional involuntary servitude. Section Ten of the United States Code defines all male citizens and resident aliens between the ages of 17 and 45 as being members of the unorganized militia, and as such are liable to call up for Federal service. The men who wrote the Constitution were quite familiar with this concept. People who are drafted are technically militiamen called to active duty. Great call. Many here are always talking about all of us being the militia and this pretty much sums it up. I personally have mixed feelings about the draft, but I did serve from 1969-1973, without being drafted. It might do a lot of these punk ass kids some good. |
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NO draft. Our military improved significantly after conscription was abolished. Yes, we'll have less anti-gun liberals in society but our military will take a hit in quality of manpower. Somebody who is forced to fight somebody else's war will not perform nearly as well as somebody who joins the military voluntarily (see Korean and Vietnam wars). Why do we need a draft? Unless the US itself is threatened as in the case of World War II there is no justification for drafting people. And if that happens you won't have a shortage of manpower - can you say a 20 million man army and a 80 million reserve militia? |
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Quoted: Somebody who is forced to fight somebody else's war will not perform nearly as well as somebody who joins the military voluntarily (see Korean and Vietnam wars). First, don't tell this to the DRAFTEES who fought in WWII. Second, the guys in Korea and Vietnam performed just as well as anyone ever has. There was never a battle lost. Both those conflicts were doomed by politicians trying to run each one from Washington. Before you go insulting several generations of veterans, how about having a clue. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure many of you finer citizens will hear the call. Looks like I won't be able to [i]hear[/i] the call. [:O] That's unfortunate, that if your country truly needed you, that you would not be there for her. Oh well, you got it right: "finer citizens will hear the call..." We don't need the likes of you. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I don't mean to offend anyone in particular, but part of the resistance to the draft expressed in this thread illustrates exactly what's wrong with the country today. Everyone is too busy pointing to their RIGHTS and insisting that nobody can make them do anything. Suddenly serving your country is "indentured servitude" and likend to "slavery". The only reason you have all of these cool rights is that someone FOUGHT and DIED so that you could have them. Why should you be the spoiled child who gets something for nothing? Isn't it fair that you also should have to risk fighting and dying, so that future generations are guaranteed the same rights that you feel so entitled to? That kind of attitude sickens me. [:(] I am opposed to the draft, just as I am opposed to any form of involuntary servitude. But don't call me a spoiled child, my 10 years service as of this December, and the next 10-20 I plan on staying in, say more than your opinion. I serve, but I serve of my own free will. Do you? I will [:)] |
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Quoted: Quoted: Somebody who is forced to fight somebody else's war will not perform nearly as well as somebody who joins the military voluntarily (see Korean and Vietnam wars). First, don't tell this to the DRAFTEES who fought in WWII. Second, the guys in Korea and Vietnam performed just as well as anyone ever has. There was never a battle lost. Both those conflicts were doomed by politicians trying to run each one from Washington. Before you go insulting several generations of veterans, how about having a clue. There was never a battle lost????? Try learning some history before you speak of it. |
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Quoted: That's unfortunate, that if your country truly needed you, that you would not be there for her. Oh well, you got it right: "finer citizens will hear the call..." We don't need the likes of you. I don't think Uncle Sam is gonna let me in since I nead a hearing aid to hear and the fact that a helmet is gonna obstruct it. |
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Actually, there is no Constitutional proscription against the draft - "Involuntary Servitude" clause in Amendment 14 notwithstanding. The proscription against "involuntary servitude" merely prohibits forced labour absent from pay - not forced labour WITH pay. That is also why "prison industry" carries a small but useful wage - useful in the milieu of prison (as well as the fact that a felon does not need to be paid a "living wage," as their room and board is provided.) I still stand by Heinlein's idea - while residents have MOST of the rights and privileges of belonging, you do not become a CITIZEN, nor can you VOTE or RUN FOR OFFICE unless you serve first. You may enroll any time past age 18. If you desert AT ANY TIME, you NEVER get a second chance. Moreover, you do not enjoy the rights and privileges of citizenship until you compleat a TERM or a CAREER. Not before. Comments? Questions? FFZ |
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Quoted: Quoted: That's unfortunate, that if your country truly needed you, that you would not be there for her. Oh well, you got it right: "finer citizens will hear the call..." We don't need the likes of you. I don't think Uncle Sam is gonna let me in since I nead a hearing aid to hear and the fact that a helmet is gonna obstruct it. That [i]sounds[/i] like quite a hearing aid. |
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Quoted: You want to draft me, eh? Well hello General Discharge! Maybe I'll just happen to get really stupid right before my number is called... Or shriek at odd intervals. Weep inconsolably at inopportune times. My brother pulled that kind of bullshit when he should have been drafted. Got a hippie doctor to sign a note that he was susceptible to "chronic bronchitis" and pretended to be all sickly and weak. What a pussy. What makes people like him (and possibly you, based on your thread) so special that you don't have to step up to the plate if your country needs you? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Somebody who is forced to fight somebody else's war will not perform nearly as well as somebody who joins the military voluntarily (see Korean and Vietnam wars). First, don't tell this to the DRAFTEES who fought in WWII. Second, the guys in Korea and Vietnam performed just as well as anyone ever has. There was never a battle lost. Both those conflicts were doomed by politicians trying to run each one from Washington. Before you go insulting several generations of veterans, how about having a clue. There was never a battle lost????? Try learning some history before you speak of it. Let's not argue, but please tell of a battle that was lost in Vietnam. Maybe you are referring to Korea. I should have been more specific, but, to my knowledge, we never lost an actual battle in 'Nam. |