Posted: 2/6/2005 9:30:09 AM EDT
|
Well if you ask most so called "educated people" Hitler invented anti semetism and the notion of Aryan supermen. The real truth is Hitler barely had an original thought in his head and was hard pressed to remember the jumble of ideas he knew in any organized coherent fashion. Anti Semetism existed in Europe long before Hitler and probably came to a zenith with the publication of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" which first surfaced in Russia around 1903. The book represents the minutes of a meeting that suppossedly took place where members of a World Jewish Congress discussed geo/political domination of the world. This publication led crdedence to the idea that "World Jewry" posed a threat to all of Europe. The Protocols have largely been denounced as a hoax but they were certainly believed at the time. While Hitler certainly did not like the Jews his anti semetism was almost required for a future in politics as most of Europe and Russia were deeply anti Semetic. Given the fact that Jews were the main supporters of Communism there were seen as an even greater threat by all of Europe after the Russian revolution. Concepts of "racial purity" were not original to the Nazi's either. Eugenics is the psuedo science of purifying a race by selective breeding, first defined in 1883 by Francis Gaiton. The idea was actually pioneered by Amercian Eugenecists in the early 20th centrury and it was their work that was picked up on by later German Eugenecists. Among the prominent promoters of Eugenics in the US was Alexander Bell who invented the telephone. Today the only followers of Eugenics are dog breeders. And finally we come to the notion of Aryan supermen. These original Aryans were suppossedly the purest race who first created civilization long ago but lost their powers by breeding with lower races (the lowest of which was of course the Jews). The idea was that the Jews threatened the pure race simply by their very existence and that through selective breeding (Eugenics) Aryans could be re bred and the threat of World Jewry could be erradicated through programs of Anti Semetisms and Hygine Laws which prohibited the mixing of races. And where did ideas of Super Aryans come from? This woman right here...  Madam Blavatsky (1831-1891), a Russian, daughter of a German nobleman who claimed to have visited Tibet and India. She became interested in spiritualism and the occult; moved to the USA in 1873 and organised the Theosophical Society (1875), organised a branch in Bombay, Indian in 1879. Basically she read Atlantis: The Antediluvian World by Ignatius Donnelly (1882) which proposed the idea that Plato's Atlantis really did exist. It promoted the hjypothesis that Atlantis was the first civilization and when it was destroyed it's inhabitants populated the world (as evidenced by the pyramid makers of both Egypt and South America who he believed were cultures that began at similar times). He believed that the people of Atlantis were holders of vast lost knowledge and development. For only such people could construct monuments like the pyramids of Egypt and South America. Blavatsky siezed upon Donnellys' theory and added her own brand of religious kookiness and spirituality. She also rejected many of Donnelly's ideas that were in conflict with her own beliefs (Donnelly followed Darwinism for example). And it was Blavatsky who declared Aryans were the original inhabitants of Atlantis. And there weren't just advanced people, they were supermen who had magical powers including the ability to fly. When Atlantis was destroyed she claimed the Aryan masters went ot Tibet and founded Eastern mysticism. Blavatsky also injected her own anti semetism into the idea and made Jews the primary reason the Aryans lost their super powers through race mixing. Seizing upon the many ideas currently in vogue at the time (Atlantis, Anti Semetism, Eugenics, etc.) and giving it her own personal touch of lunacy she becames something of a celebrity and was respected for her personal enlightenment and spiritual development. She published several books and claims to have made pilgrimages to Tibet and India where she studied with the Aryan masters. Her ideas were of course widely popular in early 20th century Germany and were basically the source of the 'scholarly' works of Edmund Kiß who pulbished at least 3 books on the subject. These books created the idea of Germans are original Aryans and led to expiditions of Tibet by the SS looking for their Aryan superman decendents. So basically your first Nazi was a 19th century Russian religious nutjob named Madam Blavatsky. Quite the foundation for a 1,000 Reich of supermen. |
I have a problem with that. See it's my understanding that in a communist society there is no room for religion, only the state. So how could the Jews be the main supporters of a political/economic system that viewed religion as not nessesary. In Russia the commies closed all the churches and shit, and a christian in China will be killed on the spot, after all religion holds dear almost everything that communism vilifies. Just curious. |
True enough but the fact remains that Jews were the main supportes of communism in Russia and Europe. This is pretty well documented. |
Was this for economic gain, trade reasons or anything like that? Or was it seen as the lesser of two evils so to speak? |
I'd like to see that "documentation" but lets say that your correct. Why did the communists persecute Jews if they were its main block of supporters? *confused* Btw I can give you one source for "proving" the Jews supported communism.... Mein Kampf If you find any others that are more reputable, please enlighten us. eta: According to pundits on this board, the communists main supporters were atheists and agnostics. Surely you must be mistaken. |
Jews of the time were most likely suckered in by the same deceptions that attract all communists: a peaceful society where everyone is equal. Communism may have been easier for Jews to swallow because Jewish religous law holds a strong tradition in community maintenance of the poor, the elderly, etc. Under Mosiac law, Jews are required to give a minimum of 20% of their income to the poor, etc. There are also laws about farmers and landowners have to leave portions of their crops unharvested for the poor to take, or if something (like say and ear of corn) drops in the field or on the road, then they have to leave it for the poor. |
Try and remember that this was before it was known what Communism turned out to be. Jews already lived a more or less closed "community" existence and the ideas promoted in Communism were not that different. And no my source is not Mein Kampf, but you may wish to read William Shrier's "The Rise And Fall of the Third Reich." It is just one of the many comprehensive works that noted Jews were among the primary promoters of Communism in Europe (although usually referred to as Socialism which amounts to the same idea) before the war. And yes Hitler did make good use of this information as well. |
Someone got it. |
|
From Steyraug: Anti Semetism existed in Europe long before Hitler and probably came to a zenith with the publication of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" which first surfaced in Russia around 1903. The book represents the minutes of a meeting that suppossedly took place where members of a World Jewish Congress discussed geo/political domination of the world. This publication led crdedence to the idea that "World Jewry" posed a threat to all of Europe. The Protocols have largely been denounced as a hoax but they were certainly believed at the time. While Hitler certainly did not like the Jews his anti semetism was almost required for a future in politics as most of Europe and Russia were deeply anti Semetic. Given the fact that Jews were the main supporters of Communism there were seen as an even greater threat by all of Europe after the Russian revolution. ________________________________________________________________________________ Reply: In truth, anti-Semitism, or more specifically, Jew-hatred, had it's beginnings far earlier. Unfortunately, it's as old as Christianity. "Our earlist information abouth the attitude of the Church comes from the canons of the Council of Elvira in Spain, presided over by Ossius, the bishop of Cordova, who was Contantine's ecclesiastical adviser..." "...Canon L forbids Christian people to eat with Jews; the offender is to abstain from the communion of the Church, that he may learn to amend...." "...Christians seem at many periods to have held Jews in a kind of superstitious awe and to have attributed to them magical powers for good or ill. In the Middle Ages, Christian magic seems to have apropriated from the Jewish practical Kabbalah the use of permutated divine names for theurgic purposes. These beliefs died hard, and there are traces of their survival even amon the Nazis during the Holocaust." CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate. By William Nicholls; Aronson Press. Ed __________________________________________________________________________________ |
Not too big a shock. I wonder why an oppressed minority would embrace an ideology that discounted the reason they were being murdered and oppressed? Fucking jews. |
|
I have a problem with that. See it's my understanding that in a communist society there is no room for religion, only the state. So how could the Jews be the main supporters of a political/economic system that viewed religion as not nessesary. In Russia the commies closed all the churches and shit, and a christian in China will be killed on the spot, after all religion holds dear almost everything that communism vilifies. Just curious. ________________________________________________________________________________ Okay...easy answer. For having been persecuted even after the "Enlightenment" of the late 17th century, and even as Jews thought that the best way to a better life amongst their well-intentioned Christian neighbors, many beat a path to the baptismal font. You may have heard the expression of "...a Rose by any other name." Well, it wasn't attributed to this period, though the idea is the same. Jews had tried for almost a milennia in Europe simply to exist. In peace, with their...let's just say their "loving, and peace to you" Christian neighbors. Now, imagine a chance of an idea...an idea where religion (supposedly) is immaterial. That certainly seemed a panacea to many European Jews. Golly, to simply live in a society where, according to the Socialism/Communism idea, they might actually be accepted. Unfortunately, for these Jews (and also for Christians and Moslems, as it happened) that this simply wasn't good enough. All lost. Nobody gained. The irony may be lost upon Jew-haters is this: -- Jews have been villified for creating and capitalizing (pun intended!) for creating banking, nation-state economies, etc. -- Jews have been vilified for creating socialism/communism that would have also levelled the playing field. Question for you Jew-haters out there, when and if you become educated enough to understand history, and it's economic and socio-political aspects, will you realize your Jew-hatred is simply a deeply rooted self-doubt, or will you continue the cycle of ignorance? |
Yeah, what he said. A little more eloquent than my roughly sarcastic rant. |
|
Jews supported communism because it was a better alternative to the pogroms of the czars and the anti-semitism of the nobility and status quo. Anti-Semitism was popular throughout most of Europe in the 20's & 30's. Hitler didn't have to push too hard to convince many people to round up the Jews. Jews were one of the first supporters of Lenin, but ironically, one of the first groups rounded up by Stalin for the Gulags. It would be hard to decide who treated the Jews worse, the Tsar's or Stalin. |
Now that we have that taken care of, can we try and steer this one BACK on topic? I didn't write it to blame Jews for Communism. It ws simply background information. |
Sorry about getting this off tack. |
That's one of the funniest things I've seen you post. It's sad that the Left actually believes it.
|
What's sad is that I could easily whip up a cult following if I wanted to. After all, my heritage is German (aryan), Irish (druid ancestors!), and some Cherokee and Iriquois indian (and everyone knows the indians had mystic powers before the white man wiped them out!). Now add in that I can sell ice to eskimos and I can spin just about any story I like to get nut jobs from around the world to follow me. The question is, what would I do with a following of thousands of loonies and kooks? World conquest? Nah, not enough of a following for that, and who wants to rule a planet inhabited primarily by idiots and assholes, the ones following me? Ooh, I know! Get a large enough following, enact a pyramid scheme by which I become filthy stinking rich, then at the pinnacle of my power, declare that I have seen the light after receiving a message from God (along the lines of 'cut that out or else') and am dissolving the cult. Everyone goes home disappointed to find some other flawed philosophy or bullshit gibberish to believe in, and I find a nice Swiss bank account to dump all that cash into. So, who wants in on the ground floor as my high priests? 
|
Bull, and that's just more "blaming the victim" crap. Some Jews may have been supportive of communism, but that doesn't mean all Jews did anything. Most were pretty much just trying to get by day to day, too busy making a living and feeding their families to be concerned about politics. You've got it backwards. People like Blavatsky and Hitler scapegoated the Jews, and as pointed out earlier, they have been targets since *forever*. If it wasn't their perceived support of communism during the late 1800s/early 1900's, it would be any number of other "reasons" manufactured for the convenience of the haters. Is Full-auto.com down again? 
|
Thanks for once again hijacking this OFF TOPIC after we have already discovered it is in fact NOT "Bull." And for the record, nobody said ALL JEWS. I said "Jews were the main supporters" and to be absolutely factual it should have read "Jews were one of the main supporters" and that is my error of omission. Again, this is NOT a topic about how Communism is the fault of the Jews. Just once I'd like to post something on ar15.com that is actually read and understood. 
|
| Well, since Spiritualists are really talking to demons, it is clear that the theory of Aryan Supermen came straight from the pit of hell, so the entire Nazi philosophy originated originally from hell as well, the end result being the concentration camps. There is a reference to "doctrines of demons" being taught somewhere in the New Testament, IIRC. |
If you really think this wacky bitch was talking to ANYONE I've got some land in Atlantis for sale you might be interested in. 
|
Of course you could. L. Ron Hubbard was a Sci-Fi writer when he suggested that it would be easy to start his own religion, and the person he was talking to told him that he could not. Thus, Dianetics and the Church of Scientology was born. Hubbard died a very rich man... -Troy |
Wanna be my high priest? My cult will involve giving the higher-ups enough money to buy lots of nice guns, BOV's, and a decomissioned nuclear missile silo to live in in preparation for whatever calamatous event we want to make up. Then once we have all the cool stuff we want, like a bunker, armored cars, guns, ammo, body armor, NVG's, Class III shit, etc. and so on, we dissolve the cult and send them off to get fleeced by the next con artist who comes along. Then we'll be ready for SHTF and the sheeple will still remain generally clueless. |