Posted: 7/22/2012 5:42:55 PM EDT
I have a three way switch in my house controlling an outside light. One switch is in the master bedroom, the other is in the basement next to the patio door. When the switch in the master bedroom is on you can turn the light on and off from the patio, however if the switch is off in the master bedroom you can't turn it on and off at the patio. How do I fix it so I can control it from both places at the same time? I pulled the switches out and upstairs I have three sets of wires that run into the box. One is the three wire that runs downstairs, one must be power, and the other must be to the light. Here is the upstairs box: It doesn't help any that they sprayed all the boxes and wires when they painted. But as far as I can tell I have the (red) jumper wire that runs downstairs. I have the black from that same set of wires to the common, and the white from that set of wires hooked too a black wire from another cable. The white from that cable is wire nutted to the white from the third cable. The black from that is connected to the hot of on the switch. |
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Quoted: That just means that either you have a bum switch (more unlikely, but not impossible), or two of the three wires on one of the switches is reversed.I have a three way switch in my house controlling an outside light. One switch is in the master bedroom, the other is in the basement next to the patio door. When the switch in the master bedroom is on you can turn the light on and off from the patio, however if the switch is off in the master bedroom you can't turn it on and off at the patio. How do I fix it so I can control it from both places at the same time? I pulled the switches out and upstairs I have three sets of wires that run into the box. One is the three wire that runs downstairs, one must be power, and the other must be to the light. Here is the upstairs box: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Pita_146/2012-07-22_20-28-14_97.jpg It doesn't help any that they sprayed all the boxes and wires when they painted. But as far as I can tell I have the (red) jumper wire that runs downstairs. I have the black from that same set of wires to the common, and the white from that set of wires hooked too a black wire from another cable. The white from that cable is wire nutted to the white from the third cable. The black from that is connected to the hot of on the switch. Without being too technical - it's a trial/error mix-n-match method for a nonprofessional, while an electrician can use experience and deductive methods to figure out which wire is which more expeditiously. |
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OK. 1st ... Do you have a voltage tester?
2nd ... in case you do NOT understand (and maybe you do) ... You should have a voltage "source" (120v "hot" wire, all the time) TO the single screw on the 1st 3-way, and 2 wires that go between the first 3-way, (these are called travellers), to the 2nd 3-way, and a feed wire from the 2nd 3-way continuing on TO the light. For now, forget the white/neutral/grounded conductor. Voltage goes from the hot-wired screw, thru the 1st switch, to ONE of the travellers, (depending on the position of that switch), and then ... through that traveller to the 2nd switch. IF that 2nd switch is positioned to allow voltage to pass from that particular hot traveller to the third screw on the 2nd switch ... voltage continues on to the light. OTOH ... if that hot traveller "dead-ends" to the switch terminal that doesn't (electrically) feed through to the last screw, the light won't light. But,flipping the position of either switch is supposed to allow (or interrupt) voltage to pass through one or the other traveller. If you have voltage at the 1st switch, see if you are feeding voltage to one traveller and then the other. If so,check whether the 2nd switch is allowing either traveller (one at a time) to feed thru to it's third screw terminal. Hopefully you're not too confused now. I'm going to bed. If you're tired/frustrated you should too. Hope the explanation helped. Stay safe |
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Quoted: OK. 1st ... Do you have a voltage tester? 2nd ... in case you do NOT understand (and maybe you do) ... You should have a voltage "source" (120v "hot" wire, all the time) TO the single screw on the 1st 3-way, and 2 wires that go between the first 3-way, (these are called travellers), to the 2nd 3-way, and a feed wire from the 2nd 3-way continuing on TO the light. For now, forget the white/neutral/grounded conductor. Voltage goes from the hot-wired screw, thru the 1st switch, to ONE of the travellers, (depending on the position of that switch), and then ... through that traveller to the 2nd switch. IF that 2nd switch is positioned to allow voltage to pass from that particular hot traveller to the third screw on the 2nd switch ... voltage continues on to the light. OTOH ... if that hot traveller "dead-ends" to the switch terminal that doesn't (electrically) feed through to the last screw, the light won't light. But,flipping the position of either switch is supposed to allow (or interrupt) voltage to pass through one or the other traveller. If you have voltage at the 1st switch, see if you are feeding voltage to one traveller and then the other. If so,check whether the 2nd switch is allowing either traveller (one at a time) to feed thru to it's third screw terminal. Hopefully you're not too confused now. I'm going to bed. If you're tired/frustrated you should too. Hope the explanation helped. Stay safe I do have a multimeter. With both switches in the "on" position and the light illuminated I have 120v on all three wires at the first switch. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (light off) I have 120v to the common, and to the red jumper but not to the other black on the switch. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (No light) I have 120 to all three terminals with both switches off ( no light) I have 120v to the white wire downstairs and nothing on the other two. With both switches on (light on) I have 120v on all three terminals at the downstairs switch with upstairs on, and downstairs off ( light off ) I have 120v at the white downstairs and nothing at the other two. With downstairs off and upstairs in either position (light off) the upstairs switch is dead, no power to any terminal. |
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I have a three way switch in my house controlling an outside light. One switch is in the master bedroom, (UPSTAIRS) the other is in the basement next to the patio door. (DOWNSTAIRS) When the switch in the master bedroom is on you can turn the light on and off from the patio, however if the switch is off in the master bedroom you can't turn it on and off at the patio. How do I fix it so I can control it from both places at the same time? I pulled the switches out and upstairs I have three sets of wires that run into the box. One is the three wire that runs downstairs, one must be power, and the other must be to the light.Before we go any further ...
Do BOTH switches have (other than a hex-shaped grounding screw) ONLY 3 screw terminals on them? Do BOTH switches have ONLY 3 wires (other than any grounding wire) connected to each switch ... ... one wire per each screw terminal ? Does EITHER switch say “on” or “off” on the handle ? If you answer YES, YES, and NO then you do actually (seem to) have two 3-way switches in this circuit. If not, we have other issues. Assuming you DO have two 3-ways ... If I were you, I would turn the power off, take good pictures and/or mark which wire goes where ... ...then disconnect BOTH switches completely, set your meter on continuity, and see if the “common” screw terminal feeds through to one (and only one) of the other two screws when that switch is in one position. The OTHER screw (and only the other screw) should have continuity with the common when that switch is in the OTHER position. If BOTH switches (disconnected) have this correct operation ... the switches are OK. For now, we’ll “assume” that one conductor in the downstairs box “feeds” the light. CAREFUL NOW ... you can test this by turning the light “on”, and removing what you think is the feed wire that goes directly to the light. IF the light goes off, but any of the other wires (on THAT switch) are still hot ... you have found your direct light feeder conductor. If you disconnect all 6 wires from both switches, and one of them is still “hot” ... THAT is the circuit feeder conductor. Now, you only need to determine if you have 2 good travellers between both switches. If the wires are ALL separated, turn power off, connect ONE traveller to the “hot” (but, now off) circuit feeder with a wirenut. Turn the power back on. Go to the other switch location and test for voltage on ONE or the other traveller. ONE of them should have power. If so, turn power off, disconnect that traveller and re-connect the other one. Turn on power and test downstairs for voltage on the other traveller . You should only have power on one OR the other traveller at a time . Not both. With both switches in the "on" position and the light illuminated I have 120v on all three wires at the first switch. 120volts SHOULD NOT BE ON ALL 3. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (light off) I have 120v to the common, and to the red jumper but not to the other black on the switch. THAT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE. STARTING NOW, WE’LL CALL THE “COMMON” ... COMMON, and THE OTHER TWO SCREWS ; TRAVELLER ONE AND TRAVELLER TWO. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (No light) I have 120 to all three terminals with both switches off ( no light) I have 120v to the white wire downstairs and nothing on the other two. With both switches on (light on) I have 120v on all three terminals at the downstairs switch with upstairs on, and downstairs off ( light off ) I have 120v at the white downstairs and nothing at the other two. With downstairs off and upstairs in either position (light off) the upstairs switch is dead, no power to any terminal. MY HEAD HURTS. I WOULD RECOMMEND THE PROCEDURE I’VE OUTLINED ABOVE. Also, FWIW... you may have "white-colored" wires but, if they are connected to a switch terminal, they are NOT being utilized traditionally as the neutral (white) wire. Stay safe PS ... If I write all this crap out and then you tell me it was a loose wirenut ... you're gonna owe me a case of good Wisconsin microbrew. Believe that. 
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Quoted: Before we go any further ... Do BOTH switches have (other than a hex-shaped grounding screw) ONLY 3 screw terminals on them? Do BOTH switches have ONLY 3 wires (other than any grounding wire) connected to each switch ... ... one wire per each screw terminal ? Does EITHER switch say "on” or "off” on the handle ? If you answer YES, YES, and NO then you do actually (seem to) have two 3-way switches in this circuit. If not, we have other issues. That is correct. Assuming you DO have two 3-ways ... If I were you, I would turn the power off, take good pictures and/or mark which wire goes where ... ...then disconnect BOTH switches completely, set your meter on continuity, and see if the "common” screw terminal feeds through to one (and only one) of the other two screws when that switch is in one position. The OTHER screw (and only the other screw) should have continuity with the common when that switch is in the OTHER position. If BOTH switches (disconnected) have this correct operation ... the switches are OK. Well, the upstairs switch is good to go, the downstairs switch has continuity to both terminals when it is flipped a certain direction. I imagine that is a problem. Have the wife picking up a new switch since she was going to wally world anyhow.For now, we’ll "assume” that one conductor in the downstairs box "feeds” the light. CAREFUL NOW ... you can test this by turning the light "on”, and removing what you think is the feed wire that goes directly to the light. IF the light goes off, but any of the other wires (on THAT switch) are still hot ... you have found your direct light feeder conductor. If you disconnect all 6 wires from both switches, and one of them is still "hot” ... THAT is the circuit feeder conductor. Now, you only need to determine if you have 2 good travellers between both switches. If the wires are ALL separated, turn power off, connect ONE traveller to the "hot” (but, now off) circuit feeder with a wirenut. Turn the power back on. Go to the other switch location and test for voltage on ONE or the other traveller. ONE of them should have power. If so, turn power off, disconnect that traveller and re-connect the other one. Turn on power and test downstairs for voltage on the other traveller . You should only have power on one OR the other traveller at a time . Not both. With both switches in the "on" position and the light illuminated I have 120v on all three wires at the first switch. 120volts SHOULD NOT BE ON ALL 3. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (light off) I have 120v to the common, and to the red jumper but not to the other black on the switch. THAT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE. STARTING NOW, WE’LL CALL THE "COMMON” ... COMMON, and THE OTHER TWO SCREWS ; TRAVELLER ONE AND TRAVELLER TWO. Stay safe PS ... If I write all this crap out and then you tell me it was a loose wirenut ... you're gonna owe me a case of good Wisconsin microbrew. Believe that. I stopped at the testing for continuity because the switch appears bad. Will update when switch is replaced. |
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Quoted: If the wires are ALL separated, turn power off, connect ONE traveller to the "hot” (but, now off) circuit feeder with a wirenut. Turn the power back on. Go to the other switch location and test for voltage on ONE or the other traveller. ONE of them should have power. If so, turn power off, disconnect that traveller and re-connect the other one. Turn on power and test downstairs for voltage on the other traveller . You should only have power on one OR the other traveller at a time . Not both. With both switches in the "on" position and the light illuminated I have 120v on all three wires at the first switch. 120volts SHOULD NOT BE ON ALL 3. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (light off) I have 120v to the common, and to the red jumper but not to the other black on the switch. THAT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE. STARTING NOW, WE’LL CALL THE "COMMON” ... COMMON, and THE OTHER TWO SCREWS ; TRAVELLER ONE AND TRAVELLER TWO. With upstairs switch off and downstairs switch on (No light) I have 120 to all three terminals with both switches off ( no light) I have 120v to the white wire downstairs and nothing on the other two. With both switches on (light on) I have 120v on all three terminals at the downstairs switch with upstairs on, and downstairs off ( light off ) I have 120v at the white downstairs and nothing at the other two. With downstairs off and upstairs in either position (light off) the upstairs switch is dead, no power to any terminal. MY HEAD HURTS. I WOULD RECOMMEND THE PROCEDURE I’VE OUTLINED ABOVE. Also, FWIW... you may have "white-colored" wires but, if they are connected to a switch terminal, they are NOT being utilized traditionally as the neutral (white) wire. Stay safe PS ... If I write all this crap out and then you tell me it was a loose wirenut ... you're gonna owe me a case of good Wisconsin microbrew. Believe that. OK, switch is replaced that didn't solve the problem. Did the above. Found the wire feeding the light, and the constant hot. Both travellers are good. Wire feeding the light is upstairs, the constant hot is downstairs. On a semi related note: I'm kind of confused why I have three pieces of romex running into this upstairs box. One is the set that comes in from downstairs, and one goes out to the light...not really sure what the other one is for though. ETA: After looking at this a little closer I figured out what my three pieces of romex are. One is power one is the light and the other goes to the other switch. (derp) The black wire from the power is wired to the white wire that goes downstairs. That is the wire I found hot and used to test the travellers (white wire downstairs) the white wire from the "power" cable is connected to the white wire on the "light" cable and all three grounds are connected. |
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Sorry. Really long/busy day.
When you say Romex...we're talking about multi-conductor cable with a common plastic sheath...Right? So you know what the circuit "feed" wire is. You know which wire sends the final power directly out to the light. And you say you have two good travelers (2 single and separate conductors to carry power between the two good 3-way switches) If that won't control the light, it simply isn't connected correctly. I apologize, but I think I'll post a photo diagram as soon as I can. Stay safe |
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Quoted: Sorry. Really long/busy day. When you say Romex...we're talking about multi-conductor cable with a common plastic sheath...Right? So you know what the circuit "feed" wire is. You know which wire sends the final power directly out to the light. And you say you have two good travelers (2 single and separate conductors to carry power between the two good 3-way switches) If that won't control the light, it simply isn't connected correctly. I apologize, but I think I'll post a photo diagram as soon as I can. Stay safe Hey, I understand. I appreciate all the help.  Correct. I have a two sets of two wire with a ground and a third set of three wires with a ground. Sorry, I thought that's what everyone called it. |
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Most everyone does. Your photo convinces me we both are.
OK ... The colors I'll mention are for clarity and best practice but, electrically ... it doesn't really matter. We'll assume the ground (bare) is connected correctly and hasn't been used as a neutral, hot, or switch leg. You should have a 2-wire from the power source. The black "hot" wire connects to the common screw on 3-way #1. The white conductor of the 2-wire connects to the white conductor in the 3-wire romex. This 3-wire romex makes up the 2 travellers between 3-way#1 and 3-way#2, AND the neutral that continues on to the light fixture. (so ... white of the first 2-wire romex connects with white of the 3-wire romex.) The black conductor of the 3-wire romex will connect to one switched screw on 3-way#1 and the other end (in the other box) ... will connect to one switched screw on 3-way#2. That black wire becomes one "traveller". The same thing for the red conductor of the 3-wire. It goes from the other switched screw on 3-way#1 to the other switched screw on 3-way#2. The red becomes the other "traveller". The other end of the white wire within the 3-wire connects to the white conductor of the 2-wire. This is the 2-wire that goes from 3-way#2 to the light fixture. The black conductor of that last 2-wire continues on from the common screw of 3-way#2 to the light fixture. I'll post a pic ... 
Hope this clears it up. Stay safe |
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Quoted: OK, I'll give this a shot. Probably won't be until tomorrow though. Does it make a difference that the two wire from the breaker panel comes into the same box that the 2 wire leaves to go to the light?Most everyone does. Your photo convinces me we both are. OK ... The colors I'll mention are for clarity and best practice but, electrically ... it doesn't really matter. We'll assume the ground (bare) is connected correctly and hasn't been used as a neutral, hot, or switch leg. You should have a 2-wire from the power source. The black "hot" wire connects to the common screw on 3-way #1. The white conductor of the 2-wire connects to the white conductor in the 3-wire romex. This 3-wire romex makes up the 2 travellers between 3-way#1 and 3-way#2, AND the neutral that continues on to the light fixture. (so ... white of the first 2-wire romex connects with white of the 3-wire romex.) The black conductor of the 3-wire romex will connect to one switched screw on 3-way#1 and the other end (in the other box) ... will connect to one switched screw on 3-way#2. That black wire becomes one "traveller". The same thing for the red conductor of the 3-wire. It goes from the other switched screw on 3-way#1 to the other switched screw on 3-way#2. The red becomes the other "traveller". The other end of the white wire within the 3-wire connects to the white conductor of the 2-wire. This is the 2-wire that goes from 3-way#2 to the light fixture. The black conductor of that last 2-wire continues on from the common screw of 3-way#2 to the light fixture. I'll post a pic ...http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/sparkycg/3wayPhoto.jpg Hope this clears it up. Stay safe |
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Does it make a difference that the two wire from the breaker panel comes into the same box that the 2 wire leaves to go to the light?
That raises a few red flags. Obviously,  the reason for having 3-way switches in a lighting circuit is to be able to control a light from 2 seperate locations.
Go back to the drawings we provided. "Pretend" that (construction-wise) the easiest final wiring route directly out to your light fixture ...WAS ACTUALLY ...from switchbox #1. Now, look at the 2nd 2-wire in the drawing (that feeds the light) and picture that 2-wire ... make it longer and extend it ... back through the walls of your house ... BACK to switchbox #1. From there, run it "directly" out to the light. If you had X-ray vision, you might see the 3-wire connecting box#1 to box#2 AND the final 2-wire (switched wire & neutral) coming back to box#1 ...on, more or less, the same route. So, to answer ... No, it doesn't make a difference. PLEASE READ ... Remember I "assumed" that the bare ground conductors (and white neutrals) were hooked up correctly ? Anyone who's spent any time in the trade has seen amazing creativity when fugglies use Romex incorrectly. I am not one to discourage doing your own repairs. I admire it. There's a lot of trades I know very little about. But, if you suspect grounds and neutrals were used incorrectly, and/or you start to have other lighting or power circuits affected by your "troubleshooting", I urge you to get a professional to set it right. Changing one or two wires in a correctly wired house is usually an inconvenient learning experience. If idiots did your place originally, you could aggravate a bad situation that was already waiting to happen.
Stay safe |