Posted: 8/28/2007 5:24:35 AM EDT
| I had my kitchen redone about 3 months ago and the grout on my floor keeps chiping/flaking out. Ive had the guy come over 3 times to look at it and all he does is chisel it out and fill it back in. It lasts maybe a week before it starts to crack again. He laid cement backing board before laying the tile and then sprayed it all down with a sealer afterwards. I'm not sure whats causing it. Its not the whole kitchen floor mostly just spots. There is only one section that is actually chipping out but a lot of areas where the grout is pulling away from the edge of the tile. This isn't really to noticeable mostly hairline cracks if even that. The original working surface was hardwood floors before he laid the cement backing board. Im not sure what to do here. I don't have the $ to retile the floor but I dont want to just leave it either. I'm afraid if I call the contractor again he will just regrout it and it will chip out again. The contractor I used is a legit business man and was recommended to me by Home Depot which uses him for their installs. He seems to put a effort into fixing it but it always turns out the same. Is there a simple solution such as sanded caulk that may be a better solution. Could the problem be with my original floor and not his tile job. Any advice that can fix my floor without costing me a bundle of $ would be greatly appreciated. |
| I am guessing that the tiled area is not very large. He probably used some "leftover" grout that had some moisture in it from being exposed to the air. This is a common charcteristice of "bad" grout. An easy fix really, you just need to remove the currrent grout and regrout with some "fresh" stuff. Sorry! |
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The simple answer may be He mistakenly used wall grout on the floor, Make sure he is using Sanded Floor Grout. The not so simple answer may be that there is too much bounce in the floor & the tiles are moving causing the grout to pop out. If this is the case you have to rip everything up & start over. Is the sub floor 3/4" thick & Did he use 1/2" wonder board over the sub floor? Did he stagger the joints on the wonder board? 1-1/4" is the minimum thickness floor tile should be layed over, I prefer to go thicker. I always lay an extra layer of 3/4" plywood over the existing sub floor then lay 1/2" wonder board before tiling. The extra layer of plywood ensures a solid no bounce floor. Or I set the tiles in an 1-1/4" mud bed, Fast and easy if you know how to do it. Hope This helps. |
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I purchased the grout the same time I purchased the tiles and everything else. The grout was originally fresh when he laid the floor. I used sanded for the floor and unsanded for the back splash. The floor was laid using the sanded grout and looked great for the first week or so. I then started to notice small hair line cracks along the edges of the tiles. Nothing real noticable so I left it alone. It wasnt untill it started chipping up in a small area that I called him. When he came back in to regrout it he used the non sanded grout. Im assuming he did this on accident but maybe not. It started chipping up as well and had a different texture than the sanded grout so I called him again. The second time he came over and removed most of the non sanded grout and filled it in with sanded. This lasted about a week and again started chipping. Its not as bad now as originally but is still pretty obvious. I guess he has only been over twice to fix it. Im guessing here but from where the kitchen floor steps up it appears that he used 1/2" subfloor. Not sure if this helps but the house was built in the 1920's and had original hardwood floors before he laid tile. Is there any way around tearing it all out? Would a sanded caulk be usable in the areas that are chipping? Im on a tight budget and am not sure how far he will be willing to go to correct this. The contractor is also someone I see on a somewhat regular basis so I need to be careful on how I go about confronting him and his work. ETA He laid the concrete board on top of the original oak hardwoods. I'm not sure if he did anything to prep them or not. I left to go to work the day he did it and when I came back the sub floor was laid so I cant really give any details as to what he did and exactly what type he used. From the dining room hardwoods to the kitchen it doesn't step up much which is why I'm guessing he used 1/2". |
he probably put 1/4" backerboard over the hardwoods. Sorry to say the only option for a premanent fix is to remove the tile, backerboard, and hardwood. Install extra sub-floor to make it a minimum thickness of 3/4" (7/8") would be better if needed, install new cement board using modified thinset and nails or screws then install tile with same thinset. Other option is to remove down to hardwood, thinset ditra mat down then install tile. chances are that where is is cracking is along a seam which is moving with the floor undedrneath. Unfortunately the guy doesn't know what he is doing. Ditra is an uncoupling membrane which allows the subfloor to move somewhat independently of the tile. 
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F-that. lean on the contractor...oh and by the way if he is working for home depot its because he is the cheapest in the area. Its the contractors resposablity to figure out what the problem is and fix it. I agree with Dave, its probably has to do with the backerboard or the flooring is flexing too much for the tile. sanded and non sanded grout as to do with the size of the grout line, doesnt matter if its on the floor, wall or celing. If the contractor doesnt figure it out find another local contractor that will figure out the problems and sue the orginal one in small claims...sorry but that will get the first ones attention alot faster....you also have the BBB and maybe Angies list in your area. |
Unfortunately he is right. 
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We never install tile over backer board of any type. We float a minimum 3/4" mortar bed float (more often 1") with embedded wire/lath. Then the tile is set with quality thin-set and grouted. The poster before me is correct: sanded vs non-sanded has nothing to do with floor vs wall. Its merely a function of the width of the grout joint. Typically 1/8" or less you go unsanded...anything else is sanded. Typically floors have sanded grouts because the joints are bigger; the joints are bigger because they aid in traction for user. Tight jointed shiny smooth tile is major slip hazard. I have one question: Is the depth of the grout joint shallower or deeper than the join is wide? If the width is greater than the depth, AND your floor deflects (double bummer)...you may try this: Modified Epoxy Sanded Grout. 100% EPOXY RESIN GROUT One more thing....can you access the crawlspace under the floor and put in a strong back or purlin under the existing joist system to effectivly halve the span? If you can do that prior to re-grouting with an Epoxy or Epoxy/Portland grout you might just get by with permanent fix. Short of that working, you need to tear up the job, fix the floor, put down a bomber substrate and reset the tile. Good Luck 30+ years in the trade... |
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Quoted: We never install tile over backer board of any type. We float a minimum 3/4" mortar bed float (more often 1") with embedded wire/lath. Then the tile is set with quality thin-set and grouted. Source That is one very strong floor. I doen't mean to hijack this thread but how is the mortor base with lath installed? Is a base of motor screated and then lath installed. Or, os the lath attached to the floor and the mortor applied? Thanks for your time. |
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Ok I need to ask this. What would be wrong with filling the areas in with sanded caulk? Do they make a sanded caulk that is flexible enough to fill in the areas and hold even with a little flex in the floor? If so is it going to look/wear like crap? Also the thought just came to me that I have tile floors in my bathroom that where obviously installed by a amateur. From the looks of it there doesn't seem to be any sort of backing board at all. If there is any it must be very thin because I know the hardwoods are still intact underneath. There are a few cracked tiles but the grout seems to be holding together. I wouldnt say that it looks great but it is staying in tact. Another observation that I noticed in the kitchen. It seems like the only grout chipping up is the fresh layer that was used to fill in. Its a small section that only runs 8"-10" It flakes off in small little V shapped chunks leaving the original grout underneath. Is it possibe that the floor is ok but he just sucks at fixing it? Sorry for all the questions and THANKS for the advice. Im not trying to prove anyone wrong I just want to look at all possible options. Im afraid that the contractor is not going to be willing to do any extensive repairs and even if he is he may end up doing more harm than good. I also know that it will not be worth it to me to take him to small claims court and that reporting it the the BBB probably wont do much good either. Any way to salvage what I have? ETA The kitchen is above my unfinished laundry room so I can gain access to the original floors underneath. |
Did not know you could get away with a 3/4" thick mud bed, All the old time time guys around here insist on 1-1/4" thick min.. I'll give it a try someday. |
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Sanded grout is no more flexible that non-sanded The sand just acts as a binder to allow it to fill larger cracks much like gravel in concrete The tile guy cheaped out on the repair (he should have scraped out the grout from the joint and a little under the tile) The grout should key into the joints ie larger piece under the tile than grout joint is wide Matching sanded grout caulk(which is flexible) might be a good last resort if it is isolated As a professional I personally don't think you should accept a band-aid approach though. |
Typically the lath is applied first to the floor and then pulled up into the mortar bed Most old school guys do the tooling free hand with no screed or use roofing nails sticking out of the floor every foot or so that are at the desired height and level to each other and then screed to them |
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The guy that tiled my bathroom used poured bags of self leveling concrete with mesh on the subfloor.. its been about 2 1/2 years without any grout cracking. Its kinda neat it see how that was done, I don't know what the differences between poured concrete Vs. Durock but it looks and feels solid. Bri |