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Posted: 9/23/2024 6:00:40 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NY12ga: I know this is me playing catch-up, but that last part practically defines the US currently as well, in a HUGE way, and it has been the case for over a century I'll disagree on that a little bit: While there have been no wars fought in/near the US, our military has been strongly involved since WW2 and our population knows about military sacrifice. The Europeans don't have ANY of that - with the slight exception of the British. Even when some countries in western Europe send peacekeeping troops, they never let them get involved in the actual dirty work. |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 6:11:24 PM EST
[#2]
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Posted: 9/23/2024 8:01:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: NY12ga]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I'll disagree on that a little bit: While there have been no wars fought in/near the US, our military has been strongly involved since WW2 and our population knows about military sacrifice. The Europeans don't have ANY of that - with the slight exception of the British. Even when some countries in western Europe send peacekeeping troops, they never let them get involved in the actual dirty work. I’ll give you that. That being said if we’d had any combat on US soil in the past 30 let alone 150 years the percentages of our population who’d be staunch conservatives who understand the mortal threat we welcome through our borders and how utterly feckless or downright subversive our dear leaders have been for much of the past two decades~ and they very likely wouldn’t tolerate it any more than we do Thoughts? |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 8:07:52 PM EST
[#4]
Haven't read thread since the first few days. Skipped some pages.
Ukrainians still in russia? |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 8:14:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By josepha1: Haven't read thread since the first few days. Skipped some pages. Ukrainians still in russia? Yeah, got rolled in one area, today claimed new success but I always wait several days or a week to get confirmation on Russia or Ukraine claims. But Torestks might be in trouble now. There’s possibly 5 weeks of fight season left before fighting gets more muddy. https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/09/24/isw-ukraine-advances-in-russias-kursk-oblast-russians-gain-ground-near-kupiansk-and-pokrovsk/  https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-23-2024     https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/russia-storms-ukrainian-stronghold-in-fastest-push/  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-forces-storming-ukrainian-town-vuhledar-bloggers-media-say-2024-09-24/ 
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Posted: 9/23/2024 10:42:17 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XJ: Other than Poland, the EU is 87% pussified cucktards who cheer while their women are being raped. Prove me wrong  In that case why are we on the hook to defend them if they are unwiliing to defend themselves? |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 10:48:30 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: In that case why are we on the hook to defend them if they are unwiliing to defend themselves? The eu=\= nato. |
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Posted: 9/23/2024 10:59:20 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: The eu=\= nato. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By juan223: In that case why are we on the hook to defend them if they are unwiliing to defend themselves? The eu=\= nato. Doesn't change my point, the EUROPEAN contingent of NATO and the EU in general has time to get their shit together militarily if they truly want to fend of any future rooshin advances. They can start by stopping their use of rooshin energy products. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 2:22:55 AM EST
[#9]
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:21:19 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryYeah, the war would definitely be over a lot faster if Ukraine was a member of NATO and they had mountains of cruise missiles. Too bad that isn't going to be the case anytime soon. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 8:00:21 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NY12ga: I'll give you that. That being said if we'd had any combat on US soil in the past 30 let alone 150 years the percentages of our population who'd be staunch conservatives who understand the mortal threat we welcome through our borders and how utterly feckless or downright subversive our dear leaders have been for much of the past two decades~ and they very likely wouldn't tolerate it any more than we do Thoughts? Agreed. Facing the threat of invasion and actual combat around your home has a way of snapping your attention on the things that really matter - and things that matter don't include a bunch of idiotic liberal crap. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:26:54 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Yeah, the war would definitely be over a lot faster if Ukraine was a member of NATO and they had mountains of cruise missiles. Too bad that isn't going to be the case anytime soon. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Yeah, the war would definitely be over a lot faster if Ukraine was a member of NATO and they had mountains of cruise missiles. Too bad that isn't going to be the case anytime soon. I have to wonder that given our cupboard isn't particularly full at the moment, what could we (or we plus our allies) do to help Ukraine "win" (however you want to define that) reasonably "quickly"? Certainly this (mal)administration doesn't have either a strategy or a clue in that regard. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:38:27 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Yeah, the war would definitely be over a lot faster if Ukraine was a member of NATO and they had mountains of cruise missiles. Too bad that isn't going to be the case anytime soon. I don’t see that happening either https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/24/volodymyr-zelenskyy-russia-ukraine-war-live-latest-news-updates 
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Posted: 9/24/2024 10:58:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: Ryan_Scott]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: I have to wonder that given our cupboard isn't particularly full at the moment, what could we (or we plus our allies) do to help Ukraine "win" (however you want to define that) reasonably "quickly"? Certainly this (mal)administration doesn't have either a strategy or a clue in that regard. The key was being willing to boil the frog a lot faster. Now the answers are a lot harder. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:19:44 PM EST
[#15]
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:40:05 PM EST
[#16]
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:56:39 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NY12ga: I’ll give you that. That being said if we’d had any combat on US soil in the past 30 let alone 150 years the percentages of our population who’d be staunch conservatives who understand the mortal threat we welcome through our borders and how utterly feckless or downright subversive our dear leaders have been for much of the past two decades~ and they very likely wouldn’t tolerate it any more than we do Thoughts? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NY12ga: Originally Posted By Zhukov: I'll disagree on that a little bit: While there have been no wars fought in/near the US, our military has been strongly involved since WW2 and our population knows about military sacrifice. The Europeans don't have ANY of that - with the slight exception of the British. Even when some countries in western Europe send peacekeeping troops, they never let them get involved in the actual dirty work. I’ll give you that. That being said if we’d had any combat on US soil in the past 30 let alone 150 years the percentages of our population who’d be staunch conservatives who understand the mortal threat we welcome through our borders and how utterly feckless or downright subversive our dear leaders have been for much of the past two decades~ and they very likely wouldn’t tolerate it any more than we do Thoughts? Last combat on U.S. soil was certainly more than 30 years ago, but much less than 150 years ago. 1945 was the last time such combat occurred on U.S. soil, I believe (I don't think the holdouts on Guam did any kind of fighting or banditry after the war ended), even if we only include CONUS, although I suppose if you count the Battle of Athens and do not just limit it to actions against foreign forces, there is that. Combat actions took place in Oregon, California, Alaska, Hawaii (which at the time included Midway), Guam, Wake, and the Philippines (still U.S. territory during that time) during WWII, and you also have the Jap balloons, submarine attacks off of the coast against shipping, etc. In that timeframe (past 150 years) you also had incursions by revolutionaries during the Mexican Revolution (Battle of Nogales and Pancho Villa's raid, the latter leading to the punitive expedition into Mexico), some of the Indian Wars of the 19th century, and the last action against a band of Indians that took place around the same time as WWI. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:58:33 PM EST
[#18]
If Harris wins, this war will continue.
Russia is not going to be satified unless it holds all of the Donbas, and I don't see that happening within the weeks of good weather they have left to them. October rains are going to kick off the muddy season there and then everything is going to be back down to surface roads, which are difficult for Russia to navigate. They will not be able to push armor through those fields for much longer. So, the Russians aren't going to be satisfied with their strategic position at the end of 2024 and will want to push into 2025. If Trump gets elected maybe a deal can be reached while Ukraine still holds some Russian territory so that some horse trading can be done. If this conflict goes into another year, I don't see Ukraine being able to hold their territory in Russia. This might be the sweet spot for negotiations this fall/winter for Ukraine. Could be awhile before they get back to such a position if they go into 2025 without a deal. |
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BC, CAN
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Posted: 9/24/2024 1:59:19 PM EST
[#19]
The Maidan Junta's Kursk incursion in a nutshell:
 A Bronx Tale - Bikers Scene “Now Youse Can’t Leave” Movie Scene Clip High Quality 4K |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 4:12:03 PM EST
[#20]
@NY12er, @daemon734
I frequently read the German news magazine Cicero and found an interesting article that talks about how the German SPD is undermining all efforts to improve the German Army. I found some very interesting quotes and shoved them through Google Translate: It could take decades for the German armed forces to become more becoming a war, the Conclusion of the If If experts: "In order to achieve the military population of 20 years ago, Germany would need 100 years at the current procurement rate." The stocks of the time could only be achieved in fighter-feather aircraft in around 15 years, in the fighting tanks in 40 years, and in artillery systems. In view of its war economy, Moscow would only need half a year to produce the overall holdings of the Bundeswehr. Contrary to all announcements, Germany effectively increased its military spending only one year after the start of the Russian war of aggression. Work and social affairs alone will be spent more than three times as much money next year as on the defence budget. Olaf Scholz's phrase "Without security is nothing" by Olaf Scholz at the Munich Security Conference in February of this year, neither he nor his coalition seem to be taken seriously. The state does not fulfill the constitutional mandate to enable armed forces to defend them and cannot fulfil it even for the foreseeable future, quotes the security expert Christian M lling. And the SPD-affiliated think tank department for the future now speaks in a study even about state failure, because by 2030, more than 100 billion euros would be missing. Pathetic. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 5:12:26 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: https://www.rt.com/russia/604582-peskov-ukraine-zelensky-plan/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_3988-3331399.jpg Russia is farther from its goals now than when the conflict started. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 5:22:32 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: @NY12er, @daemon734 I frequently read the German news magazine Cicero and found an interesting article that talks about how the German SPD is undermining all efforts to improve the German Army. I found some very interesting quotes and shoved them through Google Translate: Pathetic. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: @NY12er, @daemon734 I frequently read the German news magazine Cicero and found an interesting article that talks about how the German SPD is undermining all efforts to improve the German Army. I found some very interesting quotes and shoved them through Google Translate: It could take decades for the German armed forces to become more becoming a war, the Conclusion of the If If experts: "In order to achieve the military population of 20 years ago, Germany would need 100 years at the current procurement rate." The stocks of the time could only be achieved in fighter-feather aircraft in around 15 years, in the fighting tanks in 40 years, and in artillery systems. In view of its war economy, Moscow would only need half a year to produce the overall holdings of the Bundeswehr. Contrary to all announcements, Germany effectively increased its military spending only one year after the start of the Russian war of aggression. Work and social affairs alone will be spent more than three times as much money next year as on the defence budget. Olaf Scholz's phrase "Without security is nothing" by Olaf Scholz at the Munich Security Conference in February of this year, neither he nor his coalition seem to be taken seriously. The state does not fulfill the constitutional mandate to enable armed forces to defend them and cannot fulfil it even for the foreseeable future, quotes the security expert Christian M lling. And the SPD-affiliated think tank department for the future now speaks in a study even about state failure, because by 2030, more than 100 billion euros would be missing. Pathetic. The genius of the Kremlin's measures have been in how they've maintained their influence networks they built up on the Left during the Cold War while simultaneously building up parallel networks in the Right, each side containing those either oblivious to the manipulation or proud participants in a broader effort to "bring it all down." |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:01:38 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Russia is farther from its goals now than when the conflict started. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: https://www.rt.com/russia/604582-peskov-ukraine-zelensky-plan/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_3988-3331399.jpg Russia is farther from its goals now than when the conflict started. How so? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:03:43 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? They lost half the territory they initially took, 30% of the black seat fleet, 2-300 aircraft and most of their munitions. So…they may win but they are substantially degraded. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:04:32 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: They lost half the territory they initially took, 30% of the black seat fleet, 2-300 aircraft and most of their munitions. So…they may win but they are substantially degraded. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? They lost half the territory they initially took, 30% of the black seat fleet, 2-300 aircraft and most of their munitions. So…they may win but they are substantially degraded. Are they the only ones? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:10:44 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? In 2022 Russia was on the outskirts of Kyiv and trying to capture the city. Doing so would have collapsed the government and caused the Ukrainian army to more or less collapse also. The goal for Russia was not the Donbas or any other specific region. It’s the entire country. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:18:13 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: In 2022 Russia was on the outskirts of Kyiv and trying to capture the city. Doing so would have collapsed the government and caused the Ukrainian army to more or less collapse also. The goal for Russia was not the Donbas or any other specific region. It’s the entire country. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? In 2022 Russia was on the outskirts of Kyiv and trying to capture the city. Doing so would have collapsed the government and caused the Ukrainian army to more or less collapse also. The goal for Russia was not the Donbas or any other specific region. It’s the entire country. They failed their initial strategic goals i don't think there is anyone that can deny that. However given tactical realities on the ground strategic goals tend to change. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:18:25 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Are they the only ones? The US Army is slightly degraded, but with one exception (Patriot) it matters less than most think. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:22:44 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The US Army is slightly degraded, but with one exception (Patriot) it matters less than most think. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Are they the only ones? The US Army is slightly degraded, but with one exception (Patriot) it matters less than most think. You guys are the experts, I'll take your word for it. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:31:34 PM EST
[#30]
The Navy retiring Ticonderogas has more negative effect on combat power in the pacific than the entire Ukraine war.
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:35:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Navy retiring Ticonderogas has more negative effect on combat power in the pacific than the entire Ukraine war. Air Force Pacific island 🏝️ plans might disagree with you about that |
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BC, CAN
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:36:30 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: In 2022 Russia was on the outskirts of Kyiv and trying to capture the city. Doing so would have collapsed the government and caused the Ukrainian army to more or less collapse also. The goal for Russia was not the Donbas or any other specific region. It’s the entire country. I believe they mainly want the Donbass plus the Zaporizhia, Mykolaviv and Odessa Oblasts so they can cut off the remainder of Ukraine from seaborne trade and link up with Transnistria. Taking the remainder of Ukraine would just be a burden because of the hostile populace and decrepit economy and infrastructure which would have to be rebuilt at great cost. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:38:02 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: Doesn't change my point, the EUROPEAN contingent of NATO and the EU in general has time to get their shit together militarily if they truly want to fend of any future rooshin advances. They can start by stopping their use of rooshin energy products. They're spending $300bn doing just that. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:39:56 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: If Harris wins, this war will continue. Russia is not going to be satified unless it holds all of the Donbas, and I don't see that happening within the weeks of good weather they have left to them. October rains are going to kick off the muddy season there and then everything is going to be back down to surface roads, which are difficult for Russia to navigate. They will not be able to push armor through those fields for much longer. So, the Russians aren't going to be satisfied with their strategic position at the end of 2024 and will want to push into 2025. If Trump gets elected maybe a deal can be reached while Ukraine still holds some Russian territory so that some horse trading can be done. If this conflict goes into another year, I don't see Ukraine being able to hold their territory in Russia. This might be the sweet spot for negotiations this fall/winter for Ukraine. Could be awhile before they get back to such a position if they go into 2025 without a deal. Again and again and again. Why should Putin negotiate? Why stop fighting, when war will accomplish everything they want? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:42:08 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: The genius of the Kremlin's measures have been in how they've maintained their influence networks they built up on the Left during the Cold War while simultaneously building up parallel networks in the Right, each side containing those either oblivious to the manipulation or proud participants in a broader effort to "bring it all down." ...all while convincing the right that said propaganda is the TruthTM. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:43:57 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Air Force Pacific island 🏝️ plans might dusagree with that The Army will have plenty of engineers to support them. What Army anything were they counting on that’s more important than, what, 5 Aegis cruisers? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:46:18 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Army will have plenty of engineers to support them. What Army anything were they counting on that’s more important than, what, 5 Aegis cruisers? The navy has a lack of ships and is counting on the army to fill gaps. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:47:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Originally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: https://www.rt.com/russia/604582-peskov-ukraine-zelensky-plan/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_3988-3331399.jpg Russia is farther from its goals now than when the conflict started. How so? That comment is disingenuous, because it compares a snapshot of March 2022 with Sept 2024, and overlooks all of the combat operations of the last 12 months. The last 12 months have seen Russia making gains everywhere they push, and Ukraine losing ground everywhere except for the hail Mary charge into Kursk. Yes, Russia was losing hard in summer-fall 2022. Then they brought a half-million more men online, established the Surovikin line, and have gone on a classic Russian offensive - grind everything to powder with artillery, rockets, and bombs, and occupy the rubble. * Yes, they've had to add yet another half-million men due to the half million in killed & wounded, yes the Black Sea Fleet is a shadow of its former self and cannot even reside in its home port. These things don't matter in Russian thinking. And truth be told, Russia's navy doesn't really contribute much to their strategic capability outside the (shaky) sub fleet. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:48:25 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GoldenMead: The navy has a lack of ships and is counting on the army to fill gaps. The Army will be the backbone of the pacific war for so many reasons, none of which involve artillery and armored vehicles. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:52:10 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: How so? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:52:26 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Army will have plenty of engineers to support them. What Army anything were they counting on that’s more important than, what, 5 Aegis cruisers? https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-army-air-defense-distributed-operations/    
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:54:46 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-army-air-defense-distributed-operations/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_4034-3331671.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_4035-3331673.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_4036-3331674.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/IMG_4037-3331675.jpg Yes, and if you look at what went to Ukraine it’s nothing like 5 Aegis Cruisers capability. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 6:57:33 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Army will have plenty of engineers to support them. What Army anything were they counting on that’s more important than, what, 5 Aegis cruisers? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Air Force Pacific island 🏝️ plans might dusagree with that The Army will have plenty of engineers to support them. What Army anything were they counting on that’s more important than, what, 5 Aegis cruisers? Like army engineers? What do they do? |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:03:14 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The Army will be the backbone of the pacific war for so many reasons, none of which involve artillery and armored vehicles. https://www.army.mil/article-amp/271880/3rd_multi_domain_task_force_delivers_fires_and_effects_during_jpmrc_24_01  
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:04:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: CarmelBytheSea]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Yes, and if you look at what went to Ukraine it’s nothing like 5 Aegis Cruisers capability. How many Pacific islands are there?https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/12/29/the-air-force-looks-to-old-wwii-bases-to-survive-in-the-pacific/   
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:07:54 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Like army engineers? What do they do? What would army engineers have to do with airfields on islands? I fucking wonder. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:08:22 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: How many Pacific islands are there? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CarmelBytheSea: Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Yes, and if you look at what went to Ukraine it’s nothing like 5 Aegis Cruisers capability. How many Pacific islands are there? That’s the wrong question. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:09:12 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: What would army engineers have to do with airfields on islands? I fucking wonder. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Like army engineers? What do they do? What would army engineers have to do with airfields on islands? I fucking wonder. Me too. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:10:45 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: That’s the wrong question. Educate us |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 7:12:01 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryHow many MFOM munitions presently fielded can hit a moving target? How many in inventory in 2030? How many can range static targets from locations in the first or second island chain where presently the U.S. has authorization to operate or expects to have permission during wartime? |
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