Quoted:
After introducing the 271-horsepower Lancer Evolution at the L.A. auto show, Mitsubishi spent little time on the power pedestal. Three days later in Detroit, rally rival Subaru trumped Mitsu when it unveiled the 300-horsepower Impreza WRX STi. Rocketed by a 2.5-liter turbocharged and intercooled DOHC boxer engine that churns out 300 pound-feet of torque at 4000 rpm, the STi features a close-ratio six-speed manual transmission and a full-time all-wheel-drive system with a driver-controlled center differential to transfer all that twist to the tarmac. A sport-tuned four-wheel independent suspension with inverted struts and aluminum front control arms, a Brembo brake system with four-piston front and twin-piston rear calipers, a fast 15.0:1 steering ratio, and gold-painted 17-inch forged-aluminum BBS shod with P225/45R17 Bridgestone Potenza RE070 tires allow the STi to tackle everything from the interstate highway to the dirt track. Unique STi elements include an enlarged hood scoop, HID headlamps, ground effects, and a huge rear wing. Inside, suedelike seat upholstery, blue carpeting, a Momo three-spoke steering wheel, and an instrument gauge panel with red LED indicators accentuate the cockpit. The STi will go on sale early this summer, with prices starting somewhere in the low $30s. At those prices, the limited number (likely around 5000 units) will go quickly.

Quoted:
Still with the fugly rear wings, though.  And the gold wheels look pimpish.

Quoted:
Yawn...Its a fast car, no doubt but its a boy's car.  A powerful one at that.

I have driven the WRX and previous models with the 2.5 (normally aspirated).  The NVH coupled with the spartan damping/cheap interior and lightweight chassis made for a go-cart like feel.  Make that a shifter cart but either way, it was not a car I would buy.

Compare & contrast with the Audi A4.  Sure, a lot more $$$ but the comfort is worth every penny.  My old 1998 A4 2.8 5-speed with Quattro was a sure-footed beast that was also a breeze for 600 mile days.[red]As is my WRX, you've never driven one 600 miles have you?  If not all your prejudices would be aswaged.  Guaranteed.  Further, please don't tell me you are trying to compare any A4 to any WRX?  You are sadly going to lose in every performance category.[/red]  I never grew tired of its comfort, ergonomics or performance and we parted ways only because of a red-light runner and the subsequent damage.

My next Audi?  The 2004 S4.  4.2 liters of 40-valve V-8 driven through a 6-speed transmission to the legendary Quattro drivetrain.  340 estimated Hp... FYI, Quattro utilizes a Torsen center differential and there is no need for any manual controls.  This cent4er differential coupled with the lateral electronic differential locks assure no wheel will ever spin faster than the other 3.

Quoted:
My next Audi?  The 2004 S4.  4.2 liters of 40-valve V-8 driven through a 6-speed transmission to the legendary Quattro drivetrain.  340 estimated Hp... FYI, Quattro utilizes a Torsen center differential and there is no need for any manual controls.  This cent4er differential coupled with the lateral electronic differential locks assure no wheel will ever spin faster than the other 3.

Quoted:


How many blown turbos made them switch to an NA V8?  I like the current setup better than this new one

Quoted:

Ever wonder why there are so many S4's available 3 years after selling new?  The leases/loans expired and the owner's realized that the initial quality they experienced was a flash in the pan.  If the S4 is a possible solution to this equation, then you have entirely missed the point of the STi.

Further, if Subaru would bring the un-neutered STi over we would get an adjustable electronic center diff in the STi too.  This feature was available as early as the first 22B.  Albeit as a manually adjustable piece.

If leather and a sunroof is important then by all means stick with those overpriced overweight 330xis or A4s or Volvos.  The STi will whip their ass all week long and twice on race day.  Oh, that's right they don't run in the same types of races.  One is a rally car the other runs in a touring car series.  Hmmm.......

 

Quoted:
You can keep your little cars. I'll take a 740i any day of the week. You can drive it all day without major back and leg fatigue.

Quoted:
You can keep your little cars. I'll take a 740i any day of the week. You can drive it all day without major back and leg fatigue.

Quoted:
Yes, I race....NOT!  What good is having power if it means you will get wheel slip?  Sure, 340 Hp is still managable in a RWD on DRY pavement but in the rain? With leaves on the road? Snow?  

Since losing my A4, I have been driving a modified 2000 Jetta TDi...only 150 Hp (Upsolute chip with .205mm injectors, boost management etc...) but 250 ft*lbs of torque.  Its a bear on wet roads...and I really miss Quattro and its intelligent design.  All other systems will initiate some wheel spin, something really bad when exiting a curve under power.

And on the leases/used market.  The S4 was a favorite for the dot com guys and we all know what happened to them.  Many were chipped/modified and are dubious quality now.  I know I will never get full value out of my Jetta due to the chip but at 45 MPG, I will keep it for daily, dry driving.  Oh yes, it leaves 3 skidmarks on burnouts...the third is from the exhaust!

Oh yes, no turbo lag from that V-8 either.  

Quoted:
Oh yes, no turbo lag from that V-8 either.  

Quoted:


How many miles have you had in the seat of a WRX?  Or are you just generalizing like my friend C_Brooks?

Further, when you can find a NEW 740i for less than $40K you let me know and I'll buy 3 of them.[rolleyes]  Yey another "didn't get it" response. [lol]

Quoted:


You're damn right I'm generalizing. That's after 25 years of riding in and driving everything from a VW bug to an M3. Those small cars are uncomfortable, cause increased driver fatigue, and after 8 house of driving are downright painful. I've owned economy cars all my life and still do. I know from experience it sucks to make long trips in small cars. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Or perhaps you never driven the distance equal to San Francisco to San Diego in one day? It sucks in any car. We were hating it in the M3 and I have to assume it's even worse in cars like the WRX.

As far as the 740, with the used car market today, I see 3 year-old 740s going for around $30k, and sometimes less. With the market the way it is today, it would be stupid to buy a new one (unless money is no matter).

Quoted:
I think the comfort of any trip would be the ergonomics of the seat you are sitting in.  Agreed?

I have driven from 15 minutes south of DC to NYC(about 5.25 hours one way) in a Chevy Suburban, Chevy Tahoe, Ford Contour, WRX, Jetta GLX, M3, M5, S500, E320, E430, Acura Integra, 318is, Crown Vic, Impala, Ford Econoline van, and a 23 T-bucket.  I rountinely drive 250 miles, one way, during the hunting season in the WRX.  No sweat.  We drive that down because it is far more comfortable than the Ford Windstar we used to take.  Yes you read that right, it is MORE comfortable for two 6'+ guys and their gear in the WRX than it is in the fullsize minivan.

Also the seats in the current WRX and the newer STi will likely outpace seats even in the mid luxury segment.  They remind me of the old BMW 3 series Recaros only a little softer and with no adjustable leg support.

So if you are speaking of a used 740i then you have an invalid comparison on several levels then don't you?

However, I will still submit to you that even some of those "fullsizes" cars have what equates to a park bench for a front seat.

The WRX suffers from no such ill design flaw.

Sorry to burst your bubble but your 25 years of experience in OTHER cars does not always equate to every car.

Quoted:


you take the 740i and the electrical problems that go with it.  Ill take an A6 instead

Quoted:
Screw you all! I'll take a Jeep Wrangler with an LS-1 stuffed in it!

Quoted:
Mustang Cobra like lack of HP

Quoted:

not to get too far off topic...
Everything I've read has said that the new Cobra was actually underrated in terms of HP.
Where are you hearing that its dissapointing?

Quoted:
Impressions of the current WRX:
My coworker has the wagon.  He seems pretty dissapointed overall, and has complained more than once that once you put 4 people in it the performance goes to shit.[red]Really? What car that you add 600lbs to doesn't suffer a performance dip?  This is physics.[/red]
Also, the magazines and ads really should be forced to be more accurate in their 0-60 times.  If you don't understand the concept of a hard launch, or don't know how to do it, or don't want to burn up your clutch, you'll get your ass handed to you by a big slow Acura 3.2CL TypeS.[red]If you don't know how to drive whose fault is that?  Does the TypeS come with a stick?  If so, (pretty sure it does now) the same lack of driving skills will get you beat by a Tahoe.  I have stoplight raced one TypeS, with a 3500rpm clutch slip launch it was close to about 30mph.  3500 is NOT an ideal launch.[/red]

I really wanted a WRX when/before they first came out.  Even went and test-drove it with the full intention of buying it.  The test drive was dissapointing at best in my opinion, so I didn't buy.[red]This is likely due to lack of seat time, in all honesty my first test drive was also disappointing.  I drove it like I would an M3.  My friend then took me out in his 3000GT VR-4 and told me how to drive it.  I then went back and re-tested the WRX.  Oh what a world of difference.[/red]  I also did not find the cabin to be comfortable, maybe that comes from years of driving trucks and feeling claustrophobic in a tiny jap-car[red]Here is where you argument loses it's steam, any time you want to classify things "jap", you relay your motive.[lol][/red].  Might also have to do with surviving getting run over by a semi while driving a Civic.  Small cars like that scare me.[red]Maybe it's your driving, not the cars/[/red]

With that said, it certainly does depend on what you want the car for.  It does seem to handle well, and is certainly fun in the twisties.  And if you just HAVE to have a new car, then its probably one of the best bangs for the buck out there.  And if you're legitimately going to rally the car then there's not much else out there.  But of all the people that talk about the rally history of the wrx, I don't know a single one that's been off pavement with the thing.[red]I have mentioned it twice I think in this post alone.  I often go out drifting with it on dirt and gravel roads.  The road to my hunting farm is about 1.5 miles twisty dirt road with a couple humps thrown in for good measure.  Been there done that......[/red]

Overall though, I still think $15k spent on a '94 Stealth Turbo would eat the WRX's lunch in everytyhing other than a rally race.[red]How about repair costs?  I know I have a warranty 7yrs/100K miles -- only thing not covered is the turbo internals.  IF the turbo goes, that is a sign it is time for an upgrade [:D]

Quoted:
But at this point I'm getting tired of econoboxes, powerful or not. I want room for myself, at least two passangers, baggage, etc.

Quoted:
Shivan - we all know that Subaru has domintaed the North American Rally scene for the past couple of seasons.  No question.

However, the current WRX and the now-available-in-North-America STI compared to the S4 is apples and oranges.  Two different markets and uses.[red]What I have been saying since almost the inception of this argument.  C&D went there and said the same thing about the old versions of the two.[/red]

IME - Subaru (in street trim) has a lot to do to catch up to Audi build quality and ergonomics.[red]Build quality?  Their JD Power ratings for inital quality are way up there, but have you seen what they say about 3 year old cars?  5?  It's not pretty.  It's not the old Jaguar-type problems, but they are pretty crappy from all accounts I read.[/red]  Not that they should, again, two different markets.[red]Agreed.  As I have said, if I want a luxo sedan/racer I will not be knocking on Audi's door, trust me.  I am going right to BMW and plopping down in an M5.[/red]  Comparing them equally because they are turbo and AWD is doing both a disservice.[red]C&D broke that path, not I.  I am relating the passages therein.[/red]

Also, do me a favor - if you are going to post photos of WRX rally cars, try some from the US. [:D]  No offense to Misters Tom McGeer and Possum Bourne.[red]I will do my best in the future, but honestly the races I watch are usually from Aussie or Kiwiland. [:D][/red]

[url]http://www.rallysport.com/news/us/newsgfx/000001.jpg[/url]
Higgins/Holter

[url]http://www.edmunds.com/media/ownership/driving/subaru.rally/subarurally.mud2.500.jpg[/url]
Scheible/Maxwell

-934

Quoted:
Every one of my friends that I told I wanted a WRX was shocked.  "[b]You[/b], want a Jap car?"
However, my calling it a jap car doesn't really say one thing or another.  You act like I have a hidden aggenda regarding these cars.[red]Not sure but you came across that way....sorry if you don't[/red]  You want to spend $30k on a $15k car with a peppy engine and better brakes, have at it, I couldn't possibly care less what you drive.[red]A $650,000 C5-R starts out as a $50K car, but I sure as hell would pay the $650,000 if I had it handy.  Further, an SVT Cobra starts life as a $19K dollar Mustang it gets a peppy engine and some nice wheels.  A 96 Impala SS starts life as a Caprice Classic with a peepy engine and some nice wheels.  So what was your point again?  IIRC the WRX originally started the line of Imprezas and they detuned it to sell it in a broader market.  I think it was kind of like what BMW had to do in 1990 in order to get the M3 Evo to meet the homologation spec for the class racing they were in.  Anyway, I digress....[/red]

I was simply stating my opinion, you don't have to get all defensive.[red]In light of your opinion you left some glaring holes in your argument against, I was clarifying them for you.[/red]

As far as physics and loads slowing down cars, you're right to an extent.  But a friend in college had an Impala SS, and that thing hauled ass whether it was just the driver or 4 of us with a trunkload of guns.  Its not about adding 600 lbs, its about the % of the total vehicle weight.  adding 1000lbs to the WRX is adding about 1/3 of the vehicle weight.  Adding 1000lbs to a Grand National is adding about 1/4 of the vehicle weight.  In other words, the WRX is going to "feel" the added weight more than the Grand National.  Its more complicated than this obviously, as most things are, but this is the basic idea.[red]Here's my favorite story about my loaded WRX in a "race".  I have my best friend 200lbs me 215lbs and all our hunting gear for the weekend in the car.  Pontiac Grand Am or Grand Prix(7 second 0-60 and 15 sec 1/4, not fast but then again I am loaded under by about 400-500lbs.) keeps riding along in my blind spot so I speed up and get away from him.  He keeps pulling up on my bumper then passing me in what I thought was a reckless manner.  So finally I run up to him in 5th gear in the left lane of two lanes and let him know that I am now leaving.  I go down in to 4th and leave.  He tries desperately to keep up with me -- I cut it off at 110mph from 70mph.   He finally stays back off my ass and doesn't try to pass me for the next 3 hours of the trip.[/red]

I realize we were talking about the STi, but I haven't driven one, have you? [red]Nope, but I have driven an '02 WRX with as much (more actually) HP.  I have also driven an RS with a turbo installed and as much HP.[/red]

In terms of warranty, you're right, if you just want a fresh out of the box car that has a warranty and you don't want to mod it until 7 years from now, then the WRX is for you.  I think I even qualified that if you just had to have a new car the WRX was hard to beat.
Personally, if I was going to spend $25k on a performance vehicle, the WRX is the last thing I'd buy.  I'd much rather tear into it and modify things.[red]So will I.  However, that will be after it has all the factory bugs worked out and covered under warranty.  When I am ready to mod it, it will not be a "street" car anymore.  First thing to go will be the stereo system.  Then the back seats, spare tire and trunk trim.  My plan is to have it as a track car eventually.[/red]

Take the Grand National I mentioned above.  You can get a used one for $10k or less, spend $2k on mods, and for practical everyday street racing, you can eat most things that come across your path for lunch, all with an automatic.[red]Got an e-ticket ride through the 1/4 in an 11 second GN.....yoweee....head pinned to headrest for the first 400ft.[/red]  Again, it depends on your motivation for having a fast car.  I've conceded that for having fun in the twisties and offroad (which you say you actually do, so fine), the WRX is hard to beat, let alone the STi.  There are lots of applications though where the WRX is probably the worst go-faster to have.[red]Where? What venue?  Heads up against a Lightning at tuner night?  Yeah the base WRX is crappy for that.  The STi would hold it's own.  Bracketed drag.  The tree evens it out, huh?  Road courses.  I think Audi Quattro's were banned for showing the AWD advantages on dry and wet road courses 20 years ago.  They also have classes so I wouldn't be racing against GT cars like the M3's, 996's, or Ferraris.  It really boils down to how much is too much to throw at the mod party.[/red]

I'm also not sure that your warranty is going to cover all[red]Assumption.  I have actually raced about 5 people off the line.  I have run with some people off the line, but I've done normal takeoffs.....about 1800 rpm and slipped the clutch a tad.[/red] these "hard launches" that are required to make the WRX jump off the line.  Does anyone know if Subaru has made a ruling ont this, or is it up to the individual dealers to decide?[red]Clutch wear is uncoverable anyway.  They have to prove modification to disallow me coverage.  Hence the stock package I run.[/red]

Quoted:
My friend then took me out in his 3000GT VR-4 and told me how to drive it.  I then went back and re-tested the WRX.  Oh what a world of difference.[/red]  

Quoted:
Impressions of the current WRX:
My coworker has the wagon.  He seems pretty dissapointed overall, and has complained more than once that once you put 4 people in it the performance goes to shit.

Quoted:
Interesting thread.  Thought I'd chime in since the S4 appears to be getting some bad press. [;)]  

'01 S4 Avant is driven daily.  Prior to that daily driver was an E30 M3 (original M3) which was also raced at BMW club events.  Apples and oranges.

Build quality and reliability of the Audi have been superb thus far - best I've experienced as compared to a few other brands of German and Japanese autos.  Excellent ergonomics and comfort.  Intelligent engineering.  S4 is stock.

S4 Avant is a street car.  Silky smooth with good power.  It is heavy, it has body roll, it sticks like glue.  Nice ride quality even w/ low profile Michelins and 17" wheels.  The balance is quite good, as are the brakes.  I am not inclined to race it - at least not without major (see: Jenny Craig) modifications.  Not your daddy's station wagon, however.

I'm a big WRC and F1 fan.  The STi makes me drool.  Still hard to believe it actually made it Stateside.  Thank you Subaru!  However, my current plan is to split the difference and get a VW Golf R32 when/if it comes out.  Of course, I will test drive both first.  If the STi meets my standards of comfort, safety and real-world drivability at a lower price, I will buy it.

Voorsprung durch Technik! [:)]

btw, great pics Shivan - thanks!  

Quoted:

I'm a big WRC and F1 fan.  The STi makes me drool.[red]There is no way.  The S4 is far superior to the WRX.  There is NO WAY it could make you drool. [;D][/red]  Still hard to believe it actually made it Stateside.  Thank you Subaru!  However, my current plan is to split the difference and get a VW Golf R32 when/if it comes out.[red]I tried to get my fiance to see the R32 as a viable option.  She doesn't.  Oh well.[/red]  Of course, I will test drive both first.  If the STi meets my standards of comfort, safety and real-world drivability at a lower price, I will buy it.[red]I doubt it will be cheaper, it will however likely beat the snot out of the R32.  I think they had it pegged at 220-240hp on a 3000lb+ chassis weight.[/red]

Voorsprung durch Technik! [:)]

btw, great pics Shivan - thanks!  

Quoted:
Oh yeah, the '03 Cobra has been out awhile.  You didnt see that thread about the mechanic who ragged some lady's and posted about it on the internet?  Funny story.

I like that wagon too, I just wonder if we'll ever see it.  funny, it looks like an Audi to me, but I know its a Dodge concept.  Reminds me of the rednecks back home that used to take old wagons and stuff Caddy engines in them with nitrous and blowers and stuff, those things were awesome.

Quoted:
I like that wagon too, I just wonder if we'll ever see it.[red]The article in C&D quotes the dude in charge of the project as saying "you will se 89% of it in the production car".  I just hope the first 1% is the same motor at those specs 430hp and 490TQ.[/red]  funny, it looks like an Audi to me, but I know its a Dodge concept.  Reminds me of the rednecks back home that used to take old wagons and stuff Caddy engines in them with nitrous and blowers and stuff, those things were awesome.

Quoted:

that R32 isnt going to be cheap.  we are probably looking at close to 30k if not more for it.  Little pricey IMHO (and Im a huge VW fan).  Why dont they bring the S3 over here, i would drop some cash for that over these cars anyday

Quoted:


Hmm...  Any idea if the R32 will make it over here at all?  I would guess Audi's thinking on the A3/S3 is that it would cut into TT sales.  Unfortunate as hatches don't get much hotter than that.  TT/S anyone? [:D]

Quoted:
[red]What I have been saying since almost the inception of this argument.  C&D went there and said the same thing about the old versions of the two.[/red]

[red]Build quality?  Their JD Power ratings for inital quality are way up there, but have you seen what they say about 3 year old cars?  5?  It's not pretty.  It's not the old Jaguar-type problems, but they are pretty crappy from all accounts I read.[/red]

[red]Agreed.  As I have said, if I want a luxo sedan/racer I will not be knocking on Audi's door, trust me.  I am going right to BMW and plopping down in an M5.[/red]

[red]I will do my best in the future, but honestly the races I watch are usually from Aussie or Kiwiland. [:D][/red]

Quoted:
Audi.  I am sure you will be interested to see the JD Powers reports when the current WRX gets long in the tooth.  Gearboxes eating themselves, trim falling apart, etc.