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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:19:03 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Purportedly, the 120gr SST will upset at a minimum velocity of 1500 fps. If true Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:35:19 PM EST
[#2]
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458 SOCOM. 500 grains of hate is never wrong. And loaded to 1050fps through a can, it is quiet and has the muzzle energy of a 5.56 As I recall, about 1200 ft-lb. The 405 grainers on top of Traill Boss does not even get the can hot to the touch. Did I mention the size of a hole it makes? 
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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:46:55 PM EST
[#3]
For a 9" barrel I'd take 300BLK because it's actually purpose designed around that barrel length. Other rifle calibers you are just wasting all that extra gas. Because with 300BLK they use handgun powder which burns fast and will burn it all up in that short barrel. While other rifle rounds use rifle gun powder which burn slower and will still be burning after the round leaves the barrel, lots of wasted power. You really need longer barrels for standard calibers like 5.56mm and so forth. Of course not saying I don't have some super short 5.56mm weapons, but man are they loud!! And their effectiveness on targets are less than 300BLK. So if it has to be short, then it has to be a 300BLK. Now if you bump up to 11.5" barrel, then you start seeing 5.56mm really begin to preform a lot better if using heavy 75 or 77 grain loads.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:47:42 PM EST
[#4]
What barrel length are you looking at?
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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:48:21 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ideal barrel length is 12.5 inches from all my testing. A 12.5 inch Grendel will deliver 1,000 ft-lbs at 300 yards. It will slap steel at 500+ yards. That is the IDEAL length. But going shorter makes things handier if you live in a 100 or 200 meter world. I've done testing on a 10.5 inch Grendel and was surprised how well it shot at 500 yards |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 5:55:05 PM EST
[#6]
probably 300 BO
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:33:05 PM EST
[#7]
7.62x39
300 BLK I want a 9mm tho 
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:37:14 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does that mean? Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Purportedly, the 120gr SST will upset at a minimum velocity of 1500 fps. If true Thanks. But no one has actually done it so its just a guess. More than likely it is closer to 1,800 fps (see how that works?  )
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:40:25 PM EST
[#9]
9mm>45acp>300blk>458>6.5>6.8>5.56
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:42:52 PM EST
[#10]
458 SOCOM would be pretty awesome.
A thread the other day also made me want to SBR a 45-70 lever. I need a large caliber SBR in my life, I know that. Looks like I'm pushing the QDC back... again. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:44:03 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
7.62x54R |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:46:48 PM EST
[#12]
9mm AR
Suppressed of course. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 6:52:22 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have an AK-54R that Waffen Werks built years back. 7.62x54R out of a 16" barrel..... it makes beachball-size fireballs with every shot. Hilarious and popular with people who haven't shot it before but not something I'd clear rooms with. That being said, I have a 10.5" 458SOCOM upper. It's a ton of fun to shoot. Remember, if your velocity is capped (either to stay under the speed of sound, or by barrel length) the only way to add kinetic energy is bullet weight  Heed this man's advise. Most rifle rounds will not open at that low of a velocity. A 400-500gr bullet will go through just about everything at a .458" hole. Did I mention that flat nosed rounds crush tissue vs 5.56-8mm spritzer pointed rifle rounds? |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:11:42 PM EST
[#14]
.338 Federal
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:15:56 PM EST
[#15]
7.62x39. Cheap and efficient out of a short barrel.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:16:14 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What barrel length are you looking at? |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:18:22 PM EST
[#17]
Quote History I have a severe hankering for this exact same setup.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:32:43 PM EST
[#18]
If I absolutely had to have a 7.5" upper, I'd go with a 300BLK because I like subs. 2nd choice would be 6.5 Grendel.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 7:43:28 PM EST
[#19]
5.45x39 or 7.62x39
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:04:00 PM EST
[#20]
another vote for 9mm. there was a commentary that 8" barrel for 9mm is maximum velocity.
9mm is the most practical. practical here means the ammo and the weapon are the lightest weight. meaning you are more likely to carry it more of the time. another post here says 'always carry' for a confrontation averted. lowest volume. this is a weapon you'll want out of your way 99% of the time. 9mm is the cheapest. if you want to practice, it's much more economic than any of the rifle calibers. you're only as good as your training. it's available everywhere. if you're crossing states, countries, you can find this ammo almost everywhere in the world. for example as a competitor. ammo variance. many specialty ammo specific for HD or marksman or exploding are made for standard calibers. RIP rounds, for example, that are simultaneously barrier defeating and rapidly expanding are made in pistol only. you can tune the ammo in both a wide variety of grains and power to suit your shooting needs. 9mm is the quietest to suppress of the pistol rounds. also, suppressor research largely centers around nato rounds. 9mm capacity is superior to all other calibers and has statistically similar lethality to other pistol calibers. since 9mm is nato, it's the caliber most likely to see advancements around the world. if you want/need high capacity, the most prolific drum mags and parts are 9mm. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:05:34 PM EST
[#21]
My only current SBR
I am seriously considering a SBR of a Ruger 10/22 Takedown with a Charger Takedown as the host. I have shot enough M16s with the 10.5 inch barrel that I have decided I will live with my non-NFA length carbines. My dream gun would be a SBR MP5 |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:07:04 PM EST
[#22]
Anything straight wall, or as close to it as possible.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:08:39 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
458 socom Cause 'Merica  ETA - Took mine shooting yesterday (16" Tromix home-brew rifle) out to 300 yards. With the 325 FTX I was making good hits out at 300 yards. Scope only needed 60" of elevation input! 
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:11:18 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It means someone posted on the interweb that a 6.8mm 120 grain SST might expand at an impact velocity of 1,500 fps. But no one has actually done it so its just a guess. More than likely it is closer to 1,800 fps (see how that works? )Upset = expand I've learned something new today. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:13:41 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.338 Federal |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:15:30 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Truthfully...nothing, other than something that's fun to shoot. If I had to justify a purpose for it, I'd see it as a short range self defense tool. I'm wanting to build a 4.5" 22 upper right now. Taccom doesn't have the barrel in stock, and haven't replied to my email asking about them in a week 
I'd like a 9mms upper as well, but that'll have to wait. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:15:38 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. And loaded to 1050fps through a can, it is quiet and has the muzzle energy of a 5.56 As I recall, about 1200 ft-lb. The 405 grainers on top of Traill Boss does not even get the can hot to the touch. Did I mention the size of a hole it makes? |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:16:23 PM EST
[#28]
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Posted: 5/30/2017 8:17:29 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
458 socom Cause 'Merica |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 9:19:15 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9mm AR Suppressed of course. Quote HistoryQuoted:
9mm AR Suppressed of course. Quoted:
Quoted:
What barrel length are you looking at? |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 9:43:12 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I concur, haven't decided on a stripped lower yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
.338 Federal |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 10:04:44 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok. Upset = expand I've learned something new today. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It means someone posted on the interweb that a 6.8mm 120 grain SST might expand at an impact velocity of 1,500 fps. But no one has actually done it so its just a guess. More than likely it is closer to 1,800 fps (see how that works? )Upset = expand I've learned something new today. And yes, I did say purported down to 1500 fps, and yes, that was gleaned from another forum specific to the 68 caliber. Also purportedly came from a conversation(s) with someone(s) at Hornady, FWIW. Personally, I'm sticking with 1500 fps over "More than likely...1800", given multiple instances I've read from otherwise knowledgeable members from that other forum... 
ETA: For giggles, I will attempt to call Hornady myself tomorrow to verify the minimum upset velocity for the 120gr SST, and post back what I can find out. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 10:38:03 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.62x54R |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 10:51:36 PM EST
[#34]
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Posted: 5/30/2017 10:55:01 PM EST
[#35]
If it's just for fun go 22LR.
I've got a dedicated 22 upper that I plan to chop down to 10". Suppressed it's easily my favorite rifle inside 100 yards on steel. I can just dump mag after mag with no ear pro and not worrying how much $$ I am dropping after a long day playing around. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:02:47 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.5 inches. Maybe 9 if necessary but prefer 7.5. If I'm going to go through the crap for the sbr stamp I want a lot of "s" in it, so to speak. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What barrel length are you looking at? A 7.5 inch 7.62x39mm runs at right about 2,000 fps with standard 123 grain loads. Lots and lots of fire and blast though. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:03:41 PM EST
[#37]
4-7.5" - 9MM
7.5-9.5" - 300 BLK 9.5-12" - 6.8 SPCII 12"+ - 6.5G |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:14:52 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it's just for fun go 22LR. I've got a dedicated 22 upper that I plan to chop down to 10". Suppressed it's easily my favorite rifle inside 100 yards on steel. I can just dump mag after mag with no ear pro and not worrying how much $ I am dropping after a long day playing around. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:18:22 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a number of 7.5 inch guns and they are a lot of fun. A 7.5 inch 7.62x39mm runs at right about 2,000 fps with standard 123 grain loads. Lots and lots of fire and blast though.
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:22:15 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it's just for fun go 22LR. I've got a dedicated 22 upper that I plan to chop down to 10". Suppressed it's easily my favorite rifle inside 100 yards on steel. I can just dump mag after mag with no ear pro and not worrying how much $ I am dropping after a long day playing around. Just going to have to decide eventually. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:22:53 PM EST
[#41]
Sig makes the MPX in both a 4.5 and 8 inch barrel... So you can have a side folding or collapsing stock, SBR in short or REALLY Short, and you won't blow out your ear drums if you ever have to fire it
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:22:58 PM EST
[#42]
GD never fails to disappoint!
OP, entire volumes can be written about the ballistics that go into making a certain round "good" and another one not. If this is just a range blaster, pick a caliber and build it, considering ammo cost (least expensive) and "cool factor". If you ever envision yourself using it in a defensive role or for hunting, stay FAR away from a barrel that short in 5.56. 10.3/5 is widely considered the shortest effective barrel length in that caliber. As a matter of fact, I just completed testing of 41 factory 5.56 loads through a 10.5" Noveske barrel. Even at that length, NONE of the cheap blasting ammo would have done much other than drill a little .223 sized hole in the target. You can find the thread on it here if you're interested. My two picks would be either 9mm or .300 BLK for your stated purpose, with 9mm winning out in the ammo cost category. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:23:13 PM EST
[#43]
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:31:46 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.5 inches. Maybe 9 if necessary but prefer 7.5. If I'm going to go through the crap for the sbr stamp I want a lot of "s" in it, so to speak. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What barrel length are you looking at? If you are getting a can, I vote 9mm or 300 blk. My 300 is an 8.5", and it is also one of my favorite guns. |
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Posted: 5/30/2017 11:50:30 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering it for sure. Though it should be noted I can handload 9mm with cast bullets for the same cost as CCI SV. I guess the real question here is which I can wring the most accuracy out of in an AR platform. The CMMG 22lr barrel I looked at has a sporter chamber, which is on the loose side. The TROS 9mm barrel, however, has great promise considering how it's chamber is cut, at least according to their website. Just going to have to decide eventually. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If it's just for fun go 22LR. I've got a dedicated 22 upper that I plan to chop down to 10". Suppressed it's easily my favorite rifle inside 100 yards on steel. I can just dump mag after mag with no ear pro and not worrying how much $ I am dropping after a long day playing around. Just going to have to decide eventually. My little 22 upper won't make cloverleaf groups, but sometimes I like to put old shotgun shells on top of my steel swingers at 25 yards. I've never put magnified glass on it but if I miss the target I know it's on me. Added perk: No recoil + a short reset 3.5lb trigger = as close to accurate full auto fun as my wallet can tolerate |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 12:03:18 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a matter of fact, I just completed testing of 41 factory 5.56 loads through a 10.5" Noveske barrel. Even at that length, NONE of the cheap blasting ammo would have done much other than drill a little .223 sized hole in the target. While I agree ammunition selection is critical with barrels under 10.5 inches, there are 5.56x45mm loads which do perform well from shorter barrels. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 12:35:52 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You tested 41 factory loads for velocity. You did not test for terminal performance in properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin, did you? While I agree ammunition selection is critical with barrels under 10.5 inches, there are 5.56x45mm loads which do perform well from shorter barrels. While I only tested velocity with this test, I have "the googles" that can find me information on minimum expansion thresholds for quite a few rounds I tested. Take, for example, the Black Hills 77gr TMK round (one of my personal favorites). Black Hills tested this round and came up with 1900fps as a minimum for reliable expansion. Running the known values on this round through JBM gives me a ballistics chart that indicates the round is still going 1923fps @ 250yds. What do you think that would look like out of a 7" barreled 5.56? I don't know the answer to that because I don't own a barrel that short and can't chronograph it, but I'd make a wager that its less than 50yds (and that's one of the more expensive "Gucci" loads out there). Contrast that seemingly stellar performance with Federal M193 (or any of the M193 clones I tested) that requires 2700fps to fragment, look at the numbers, and tell me how much fragmentation you'd get at...any range. For a toy, OP can get whatever he wants. I would be VERY cautious going with anything under 10.5" in 5.56 though. My perspective may and probably is different than the OP's. I don't own toy guns because I want every gun in the safe to be able to be used defensively, not that they ever will be, but that they can be. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 12:48:07 AM EST
[#48]
6mm Dasher
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Posted: 5/31/2017 1:06:50 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No I did not. Why make it even harder on yourself to find proper SD ammo though? While I only tested velocity with this test, I have "the googles" that can find me information on minimum expansion thresholds for quite a few rounds I tested. Take, for example, the Black Hills 77gr TMK round (one of my personal favorites). Black Hills tested this round and came up with 1900fps as a minimum for reliable expansion. Running the known values on this round through JBM gives me a ballistics chart that indicates the round is still going 1923fps @ 250yds. What do you think that would look like out of a 7" barreled 5.56? I don't know the answer to that because I don't own a barrel that short and can't chronograph it, but I'd make a wager that its less than 50yds (and that's one of the more expensive "Gucci" loads out there). Contrast that seemingly stellar performance with Federal M193 (or any of the M193 clones I tested) that requires 2700fps to fragment, look at the numbers, and tell me how much fragmentation you'd get at...any range. For a toy, OP can get whatever he wants. I would be VERY cautious going with anything under 10.5" in 5.56 though. My perspective may and probably is different than the OP's. I don't own toy guns because I want every gun in the safe to be able to be used defensively, not that they ever will be, but that they can be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You tested 41 factory loads for velocity. You did not test for terminal performance in properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin, did you? While I agree ammunition selection is critical with barrels under 10.5 inches, there are 5.56x45mm loads which do perform well from shorter barrels. While I only tested velocity with this test, I have "the googles" that can find me information on minimum expansion thresholds for quite a few rounds I tested. Take, for example, the Black Hills 77gr TMK round (one of my personal favorites). Black Hills tested this round and came up with 1900fps as a minimum for reliable expansion. Running the known values on this round through JBM gives me a ballistics chart that indicates the round is still going 1923fps @ 250yds. What do you think that would look like out of a 7" barreled 5.56? I don't know the answer to that because I don't own a barrel that short and can't chronograph it, but I'd make a wager that its less than 50yds (and that's one of the more expensive "Gucci" loads out there). Contrast that seemingly stellar performance with Federal M193 (or any of the M193 clones I tested) that requires 2700fps to fragment, look at the numbers, and tell me how much fragmentation you'd get at...any range. For a toy, OP can get whatever he wants. I would be VERY cautious going with anything under 10.5" in 5.56 though. My perspective may and probably is different than the OP's. I don't own toy guns because I want every gun in the safe to be able to be used defensively, not that they ever will be, but that they can be. one that does. reposted from earlier in this thread Black Hills 50 grain TSX load had a muzzle velocity of 2,634 fps when fired from a LWRCI 8 inch M6A2 PDW. It penetrated 16.75 inches in properly calibrated 10% Ordnance Gel and expanded to .441 inch. Expansion started immediately and results were very impressive. Retained weight was 49.6 grains. Temporary Cavity Length was 10.75 inches and it was 4.5 inches deep. Black Hills 55 grain TTSX expanded all the way out to 350 yards when fired from this 8 inch barrel length. It expanded to .46 inch and penetrated to 12.75 inches You have to get very fussy over loads for barrels below 10.5 inches, but there are good factory loads readily available. You can plink and shoot your cheap XM193 all you want, just use carefully selected loads for personal protection. Plus a 7.5 inch gun fills a very small PDW type niche. Its intended for very specific applications typically at handgun distances. It is made for situations where the 10.5 inch gun is simply too big. Is a 5.56 the best choice for a barrel this short? Probably not but if you carefully choose your ammunition it will provide acceptable performance. I like the thread you started and the amount of info you are sharing for members who do not have access to a chronograph. Thanks |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 1:59:54 AM EST
[#50]
If you already have a Glock 17 or 19, then you could share magazines with a glock mag lower. Then go 9mm.
If you already have the lower, then(as previously pointed out) the .300 BLK was purpose built for this barrel length config for the AR. |
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