Why did fire shelters not protect the Granite Mountain Hotshots at Yarnell Hill? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why did fire shelters not protect the Granite Mountain Hotshots at Yarnell Hill? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 5/7/2023 10:34:39 PM EST

[#1]

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The whole thing was a soup sandwich. Enough said.

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Lug, you're a firefighter.

Splain to us like we are all 6 years old and retarded what went wrong

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:03:00 PM EST

[#2]

After a career in the military and multiple deployments...

The biggest displays of mass confusion, and clusterfuckery I've ever seen are on big fires. The USFS seemed completely incompetent at the most basic coordination and communication. The leaders were clowns. No one had any idea what they were doing or why. One entire crew was completely lost and turned around 180, and thought the fire was coming from the opposite direction.

I'm surprised that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:12:12 PM EST

[#3]

I took wildland 1 and we were trained to find a clearing and burn it if we had time so there wouldn't be any fuel when the fire caught up. It's been several years and I have forgotten more than I learned. I remember there were things you were not supposed to bring in the shelter with you, and things you were. I think you were supposed to bring a canteen and toss your pack away from you.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:16:55 PM EST

[#4]

Inside The Fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvPa_yEEd4E

Notice the temps are in C. 875 C, roughly the max temp, is 1600 F.

Aluminum melts at just over 1200 F. That's about 650 C. Look how long that fire is above 650 C.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:22:21 PM EST

[#5]

I have a homesite in Ruger Ranch (Bill Ruger's former ranch subdivided unto 40 acre lots--each lot came with a Mk II with the lot number. I dont one have because I bought from the developer as a forclosure resale). Most folks dine and shop in Yarnell. Residents had donated quite a bit for fire relief and a representitive from Yarnell came to our POA/RMA meeting and invited us to drive around town after the meeting to see the rebuilding progress. Aparently the town did not tell the residents they invited us. I rember it being very ackward, hostile, and uncomfortable.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:36:30 PM EST

[#6]

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I'm just a few miles from where the Crooks fire burned last year.

Funny thing about those extreme winds is that the USFS seems to find an awful lot of abandoned campfires
on the mornings of forecast extreme winds days -- even during the week when the amount of campers is low --
and strangely enough they're usually directly upwind of either developed areas or heavy forest.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

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I'm in N.AZ, in fact today we cleared dead ponderosa from our property. We have had extreme winds and things are getting pretty dry even though we (Flagstaff) had an extreme wet winter.

I'm just a few miles from where the Crooks fire burned last year.

Funny thing about those extreme winds is that the USFS seems to find an awful lot of abandoned campfires
on the mornings of forecast extreme winds days -- even during the week when the amount of campers is low --
and strangely enough they're usually directly upwind of either developed areas or heavy forest.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

Man, there's so many fuckin idiots that live in the valley and go glamp up north that I am positive it is a coincidence

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:38:02 PM EST

[#7]

Most of the folks I have read about that died due to fire were in aviation and it wasn't really the skin burns that got em, it was inhaling the super heating air, I am sure they hospital could have put them on ECMO until a lung transplant was available but ain't no body got time for that.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:45:41 PM EST

[#8]

Shelters are a last ditch effort and wont protect your lungs from super heated gases cooking your respiratory tract. The best situation is not putting yourself in a position to have to deploy. Follow the 10 and 18s, their leadership broke at least a dozen.

Posted: 5/7/2023 11:48:26 PM EST

[#9]

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What the movie doesn’t talk about is the death benefits in the aftermath. Apparently there weren’t very good benefits as part of their contracts. The lawsuits against the city from the families got really ugly.

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Yeah not suprised - I’ve got 10+ years in now with the forest service doing it and I honestly cannot recommend it as a full career, great stepping stone to a real firefighter job or some professional experience for something better.

But my level of responsibility as a Captain (Still techincally just a forestry techincian on paper to the retards in DC) and amount of pay/benefits arent worth it. Shit I’d be stoked to just get something similar to a private in the army when it comes to tricare and disability if they are injured - We dont have shit other than Oh cannot pass the phyiscal test to do your job anymore, well goodbye.

Feels shitty knowing your one Unwaiverable medical condition away from being disposable

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:16:07 AM EST

[#10]

Shelters are pretty much a death trap

Those dudes were well out in an unburned area ahead of the fire and tried to race the fire, which was driven by collapsing thunder cells, to a ranch area down in the valley. Whether they were tying to get to the ranch to protect it, or shelter from the fire is unclear

The brush they were in was way over head height and very thick. It was a very untenable place to be caught

They spent the last few minutes of their lives trying to cut a better deployment zone

There were a lot of things that happened well before those last few minutes that "lead" to what happened

But I think the best takeaway is in a situation like that - never stop running. It might not work but shelters don't seem to work in those situations either

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:24:51 AM EST

[#11]

A friend I went to Iraq with is a wildland firefighter. He loves it and worked that fire. Says it was his worst day ever.

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:40:11 AM EST

[#12]

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Man, there's so many fuckin idiots that live in the valley and go glamp up north that I am positive it is a coincidence

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On weekends I get that. Weekdays when it coincides with crazy high wind forecasts, I'm a little skeptical but I could see
the USFS checking campgrounds a lot more on those bad days.

Here's the dispatch log for the Prescott dispatch center. Five abandoned campfires in
Prescott National Forest alone -- with three all within a few hundred feet of each other near Horsethief basin.
Looks like the idiot glampers brought friends.

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:41:31 AM EST

[#13]

^ The ring in those pictures is the actual memorial and site. With crosses at the location for each fighter. Benches around the memorial. Tokens, gifts, and tributes left from all around the world from people paying their respects are on the boundary of the site.

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:43:04 AM EST

[#14]

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Wss the official cause of death burns or asphyxiation?

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I honestly don't want to know
I'm sure it was horrible.

Posted: 5/8/2023 12:49:55 AM EST

[#15]

I read the book and there was a lot of mistakes made.

Posted: 5/8/2023 1:00:59 AM EST

[#16]

Quoted:
How exactly did the fire shelters fall short when the 19 Hotshots lost their lives in the Yarnell Hill fire?

I believe they are rated for 2,000 degrees F.

I realize that particular fire was incredibly intense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cre1DOpQFx8

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“Feet toward the fire” told me all I need to know about the effectiveness of those shelters.

Posted: 5/8/2023 2:07:00 AM EST

[#17]

I remember watching Red Skies Over Montana in a drive-in theater back in the mid50s. Terribly outdated and typical Hollywood but it does have some real firefighting footage. It was about a smoke jumper who was the lone survivor (Richard Widmark) being haunted and facing the families of those who didn't make it. My son was a firefighter in college. We lived in WA and saw some huge fires so it always stuck with me. I have huge respect for the people who fight those fires. Everything can go upside down in a moment.

Posted: 5/8/2023 2:11:36 AM EST

[#18]

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Why didn't they have a water bomber nearby to douse them?

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They did. comms were trash.

Posted: 5/8/2023 2:20:55 AM EST

[#19]

If you have the time, here's a good video breakdown by one of the guys that did a report.

Yarnell Hill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4

Fire shelters can't withstand direct flame contact.

Posted: 5/8/2023 3:19:55 AM EST

[#20]

No one would be surviving that in a fire shelter.

Posted: 5/8/2023 3:39:34 AM EST

[#21]

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You're nothing more than a baked potato at that point. Try breathing super heated air.

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Posted: 5/8/2023 3:51:51 AM EST

[#22]

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The brush they were in was way over head height and very thick. It was a very untenable place to be caught

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That's a critical detail. The shelters protect fairly well against nearby flames, much less well against flames in context with them.

Posted: 5/8/2023 3:53:58 AM EST

[#23]

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I remember watching that movie for the first time. I hadn't heard of the Yarnell Hill incident before. I had heard of the foil blankets. I thought they were going to be fine once I saw the shields coming out. When I realized they were dead, it hit me like a cinderblock to the face.

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Yep

That ending F’d me up good.

Posted: 5/8/2023 11:12:08 AM EST

[#24]

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Quoted:

On weekends I get that. Weekdays when it coincides with crazy high wind forecasts, I'm a little skeptical but I could see
the USFS checking campgrounds a lot more on those bad days.

Here's the dispatch log for the Prescott dispatch center. Five abandoned campfires in
Prescott National Forest alone -- with three all within a few hundred feet of each other near Horsethief basin.
Looks like the idiot glampers brought friends.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Man, there's so many fuckin idiots that live in the valley and go glamp up north that I am positive it is a coincidence

On weekends I get that. Weekdays when it coincides with crazy high wind forecasts, I'm a little skeptical but I could see
the USFS checking campgrounds a lot more on those bad days.

Here's the dispatch log for the Prescott dispatch center. Five abandoned campfires in
Prescott National Forest alone -- with three all within a few hundred feet of each other near Horsethief basin.
Looks like the idiot glampers brought friends.

Dont forget the idiots dragging chains, tossing lit cigs out the window, and parking their overheated car on dead grass

Posted: 5/8/2023 11:21:19 AM EST

[#25]

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Quoted:
Move to where the fire has already burned. Those little blankets won’t do shit is sustained heat and won’t keep your lungs from getting fried.

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Problem is, you really only have 2 ways to do that: deploy the shelters and let the front pass over you, or actually move through it. That front is a raging inferno, several hundred yards wide. You're not going to be able to simply hold your breath and close your eyes and sprint for 15 seconds.

(If it's not a raging inferno, then it's a lower intensity fire and you would have more options).

Posted: 5/8/2023 11:21:54 AM EST

[#26]

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Quoted:
Dont forget the idiots dragging chains, tossing lit cigs out the window, and parking their overheated car on dead grass

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Those are all easy to spot as the fires are right on the roads/trails. And yes, there's no shortage of those, right now probably
3-4 per day. Not everything makes it into the dispatch logs either. I hate when they have to shut the forest down during
extreme fire danger but there doesn't seem to be an alternative unless they require IQ tests for entry.

Then there's the extra special ones that bring fireworks when campfires are banned.

Posted: 5/8/2023 11:25:35 AM EST

[#27]

Hot fire fanned by wind in a tight canyon, and you wonder how their shelters failed? You do understand man has for centuries got the fire hotter using air right? you know, so they could turn iron ore, or any of the other varieties of metal into high quality steel/brass/what ever..

Posted: 5/8/2023 11:29:08 AM EST

[#28]

Lack of oxygen would be my immediate guess.

Posted: 5/8/2023 1:11:17 PM EST

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you have the time, here's a good video breakdown by one of the guys that did a report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4

Fire shelters can't withstand direct flame contact.

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Best video I have seen on this. Thanks for the share.

Posted: 5/8/2023 2:41:30 PM EST

[#30]

Took me a minute to find
Yarnell Hill Serious Accident Investigation Report

Posted: 5/8/2023 2:50:51 PM EST

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm just a few miles from where the Crooks fire burned last year.

Funny thing about those extreme winds is that the USFS seems to find an awful lot of abandoned campfires
on the mornings of forecast extreme winds days -- even during the week when the amount of campers is low --
and strangely enough they're usually directly upwind of either developed areas or heavy forest.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

View Quote

I have personally put out dozens of campfires over the years where people broke camp and left a fire burning or smoldering - in windy and dry conditions.

It got to the point where I make sure I have a gallon or two of water set aside for this purpose when we break camp and are heading out. Deer hunters seem to be worse about leaving fires than the elk hunters for some reason.

Assholes like that get areas closed to hunting and camping.