Posted: 10/14/2013 2:32:03 PM EDT
|
first of all he fucked up plain and simple
He is a good NCO and is a single Dad of 3 Plans are looking like he is being put out JAG won't talk to him, No UCMJ at this point Commander is recommending we retain him, but its not looking good at BN/BDE. What options does he have? luckily he has a $100k + in thrift savings My hands are tied other than recommending he be allowed to retire, anybody he have some advice for me on this? Thanks |
Just what the man needs. Kick him out of the only thing he has dedicated his life to. 
I just don't want a good man to go to waste for a single non lethal mistake. Alcohol makes you make bad decisions. Simple as that. BTDT. (In case you missed it: Forgive him his mistake.) |
|
Right now the safest way for him to survive is to claim a one-time drinking problem, ask for a referral to a rehab program, and actually go to it. I'm not saying he's an alcoholic, just that if a mbr self-refers, it's usually a get-out-of-jail card with the Service (not free though). The civil side will still proceed and that's going to be expensive, but his career might be saved (maybe). Talk to your drug and alcohol rep and see what they say. I know that it works in my Service when a mbr seriously wants to stay in and the command wants to keep them (and it's the only offense in their recent record and nobody was hurt or killed). Not for dirtballs or deadbeats. It's not a sure thing, but your other option is helping fill out the discharge papers. Sometimes people just screw up.
If you can't talk to your unit's drug and alcohol rep because they're not the best asset (won't help or they're just a dick), go higher. He needs to have an advocate though. Find an officer that's worth something, preferably an O-3 or higher (a good O4 or O5 would be ideal), and get them to figure out how to do this, they should know already. If they balk, give them the "Responsibility" speech about what their real job is: to ensure enlisted personnel are able to do their jobs and to advocate for them when they're in trouble. I seriously wish him luck. |
|
+1 @10999; Are you in his chain of command? If so, this is simple. If you're his commander, platoon leader, etc, and you're willing to take some heat. Write him a letter of reprimand, give him extra duty, retraining etc, and restrict him to barracks for 24 hours. Then you have taken away the militaries ability to punish him again in any other venue... Ie double jeopardy, cannot be used, you will need to put this in writing, counsel him and document the counseling on whatever firm is appropriate and then put it in your desk drawer. He will still have to deal with any civil legal
matter, but it will make it very difficult for any other military commander to do anything. And he needs to get good civilian counsel for both military and civil justice systems. |
|
Any extenuating circumstances to plead his case?
One of my E7s is going through a messy ugly divorce. He's reported for work smelling heavily like alcohol, and a BAC just below DUI limits a few times. Readiness NCO and teh Command have given him a bit of leeway due to his situation. This SFC has also gotten a DUI. ETA: Not AD; Guard Soldier. |
|
Quoted:
That is the new trend. If he is a stellar NCO, you might be able to argue the "one time only fuckup" angle, but you said the BN/BDE is not on board so you may be fucked. Quoted:
Quoted:
17 years and he's out for a DUI? Jeebuz. That's retarded, Sir. That is the new trend. If he is a stellar NCO, you might be able to argue the "one time only fuckup" angle, but you said the BN/BDE is not on board so you may be fucked. Not really new, every time they do force reduction they are one of the first to go. Same thing happened in the mid 80s. |
|
You need to convince the CO and 1SG go to batt for him, hard. You should get with the Ops SGM offline and put a bug in his ear, he may just mention something favorable to the BN CSM, that's if they have a good relationship.
You're options are limited at the BDE level - are you at RTB? |
|
Quoted:
+1 @10999; Are you in his chain of command? If so, this is simple. If you're his commander, platoon leader, etc, and you're willing to take some heat. Write him a letter of reprimand, give him extra duty, retraining etc, and restrict him to barracks for 24 hours. Then you have taken away the militaries ability to punish him again in any other venue... Ie double jeopardy, cannot be used, you will need to put this in writing, counsel him and document the counseling on whatever firm is appropriate and then put it in your desk drawer. He will still have to deal with any civil legal matter, but it will make it very difficult for any other military commander to do anything. And he needs to get good civilian counsel for both military and civil justice systems. Sorry, not in his chain of command. I have done this before, but not in this case. We had a guy in this same situation, was charged at the unit lvl, and dealt with at Captain's Mast. Our CO was an O6 and held the authority to adjudicate the incident at his level if he chose to do so (which he did, an excellent CO). Normal mast with rep and character witnesses. Penalty was a bit painful (as it should be for a lapse of judgement, not so much for the accused as for everybody watching), but he survived well and is now a Command Senior Chief at a different command. The penalty has to be real or you run the risk of having the judgement reviewed at the flag lvl; shouldn't happen, but it does. I was the mast rep and supervisor. Once it's over, it's over for further prosecution, but it's always there and, as another reply here noted, when Services are cutting back (w/o some protection, i.e an advocate), people with black marks are first to go. But he only needs to survive a few years and do well in those years. He can survive this if the command wants him to and has the both the ability (command rank) to intercede and the desire. He has to start the process and needs to be shown how. He needs to talk to a good drug and alcohol rep on how to survive this. |
|
Brother in Law earned a DWI in Germany, took a stripe and told him to pass his next rank test (a year or so away) or he's out.
He failed the test, they sent him back to Texas a month later, his stuff will follow shortly. Can't say I feel sorry for him, I warned my wife the he needs to get his shit together or it's going to haunt him. I do wish your buddy luck, my BIL is a dumbass and always had a drinking problem. But, they did give him a second chance and he was just a load master in the air force for 8 years. |
|
I think our BN CSM will have his back.
If I was in RTB we would take care of him, but im back with the 82nd. I think they could just reduce the guy to e-5 and let mim take early retirement via QMP free Quoted:
You need to convince the CO and 1SG go to batt for him, hard. You should get with the Ops SGM offline and put a bug in his ear, he may just mention something favorable to the BN CSM, that's if they have a good relationship. You're options are limited at the BDE level - are you at RTB? |
|
If he was a Officer he would just go and get his ETS physical
Free Quoted:
I retired in 1996 but work at a JTF. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You can bet if he was a zero with that much time in, they'd do otherwise. No...I'd bet you haven't served recently..... I retired in 1996 but work at a JTF. |
|
Thanks
What sucks is he is the best SSG in the PLT, as soon as we get a good guy something always happens. Our Company short NCO's right now, with no replacements in the future. I don't know how the Army can downsize at the shape we are in right now. Gotta be alot of NCOs hidding out somewhere. Free Quoted:
Sucks Ranger Free. Wish I could help Transition to a peacetime Army is a terrible thing. |
|
Nope
Good NCO, just got drunk, took a 4hour nap and thought he would be ok to drive. he swerved on the way into housing and got snagged. free Quoted:
Any extenuating circumstances to plead his case? One of my E7s is going through a messy ugly divorce. He's reported for work smelling heavily like alcohol, and a BAC just below DUI limits a few times. Readiness NCO and teh Command have given him a bit of leeway due to his situation. This SFC has also gotten a DUI. ETA: Not AD; Guard Soldier. |
|
Hes forgiven in my eyes.
In my younger days I did stupid stuff and just never got caught. I think he needs to be punished, worse case lose a stripe. I just don't think he needs to lose his retirement. free Quoted:
Just what the man needs. Kick him out of the only thing he has dedicated his life to.
I just don't want a good man to go to waste for a single non lethal mistake. Alcohol makes you make bad decisions. Simple as that. BTDT. (In case you missed it: Forgive him his mistake.) |
|
The problem with a Leader cutting slack is that there's a precedent established and the next person pulls that card out and says you let person X get by with A, B, and C but you want to put me jail? You know how the next guy is going to play that card so that has to be of concern to the Command. Also, 17 years is probably far less likely to get a break, an NCO, a leader...
I do disagree with it being a career ender, loss of retirement, etc.., There's plenty of option for punishment AND retention. |
|
Quoted:
The problem with a Leader cutting slack is that there's a precedent established and the next person pulls that card out and says you let person X get by with A, B, and C but you want to put me jail? You know how the next guy is going to play that card so that has to be of concern to the Command. Also, 17 years is probably far less likely to get a break, an NCO, a leader... I do disagree with it being a career ender, loss of retirement, etc.., There's plenty of option for punishment AND retention. Yes, that can be a problem, but it can be mitigated by the fact that not all Soldiers (or NCOs) are equal. You have 2 NCOs. One is super squared away, the other is the opposite. They both get into trouble for roughly the same thing. It is up to the CoC as to how to punish them, they can decide to give a slap on the wrist to the otherwise stellar NCO, and go full-UCMJ on the other due to his history of fuckups. |
|
Hmmm, rock and a hard place....
Any consideration for calling up one of those lawyers in the back of the Army Times, or a local firm, and having them plead the case in court, but do so buying time for the defendant to get him to 18 years? I would think that command cannot discharge until case is finished and he is convicted. ETA: depending on the case load where you guys are at, it could be possible to stretch sentencing out a few years. In theory, your SSG could hit 20, and get out before teh case is resolved. |
|
Quoted:
My hands are tied Your unit's hands are tied as well. There is a Division policy letter on it which echoes the Corps policy letter. It's not new here or other places in the Army. Besides all the simple admin stuff of flag, bar, ASAP, GOMOR, UCMJ up to the unit, etc, he will be processed for separation. Note that there is a difference between actually being separated and being processed for separation. |
|
Quoted:
Your unit's hands are tied as well. There is a Division policy letter on it which echoes the Corps policy letter. It's not new here or other places in the Army. Besides all the simple admin stuff of flag, bar, ASAP, GOMOR, UCMJ up to the unit, etc, he will be processed for separation. Note that there is a difference between actually being separated and being processed for separation. Quoted:
Quoted:
My hands are tied Your unit's hands are tied as well. There is a Division policy letter on it which echoes the Corps policy letter. It's not new here or other places in the Army. Besides all the simple admin stuff of flag, bar, ASAP, GOMOR, UCMJ up to the unit, etc, he will be processed for separation. Note that there is a difference between actually being separated and being processed for separation. I had a Corpsmen processed for separation; that separation was held in a abeyance until he retired because he had 18.5 years in when he got in trouble. Depending on how long it was; I would attempt to get any action delayed until after the 18th years of service date. |
|
Quoted:
That is the new trend. If he is a stellar NCO, you might be able to argue the "one time only fuckup" angle, but you said the BN/BDE is not on board so you may be fucked. Quoted:
Quoted:
17 years and he's out for a DUI? Jeebuz. That's retarded, Sir. That is the new trend. If he is a stellar NCO, you might be able to argue the "one time only fuckup" angle, but you said the BN/BDE is not on board so you may be fucked. you can try... it kinda depends on the command and the paygrade. in the navy for example, an E4 or below would probably get hammered but it wouldn't be career-ending, especially if they liked the sailor. however if it was an E5 or E6 then they'd be much more tempted to make an 'example' out of him or her, especially with that many years in. ... but if it was E7+ then it'd be under the "chief" umbrella where they protect their own. (although in some cases even then they'll let the sailor stay in and just say "not recommended for retention") not sure how it's like in other forces but... it just depends if you're in the "sweet spot" (if you can call it sweet) for a command wanting to take it's frustration out on you or not. |
|
A couple of things here:
You can establish a very bad precedent by cutting him some slack on this He is a E-6 with 17 years of service in today's Army. What other issue(s) are out there? Once again, he is an E-6 with17 years, how are his QMP/QSP odds before this happened. He is an E-6 with 17 years in the Army. Even if the chain of command hammers him with UCMJ, he will still have a board to see if he gets thrown out. |
|
Quoted:
A couple of things here: You can establish a very bad precedent by cutting him some slack on this He is a E-6 with 17 years of service in today's Army. What other issue(s) are out there? Once again, he is an E-6 with17 years, how are his QMP/QSP odds before this happened. He is an E-6 with 17 years in the Army. Even if the chain of command hammers him with UCMJ, he will still have a board to see if he gets thrown out. Agree with all. Wasn't going to touch the 17 year SSG bit as that is pretty clrear. QSP should pick him up, but the unit would have to make sure they get the admin stuff done...NCOER, harass Division for a timely GOMOR, etc. UCMJ with loss of rank will also bump him down to SGT past his RCP. Also, original post mentioned no UCMJ which is odd and quite frankly wrong. MPs got him, should be no real roadblocks to UCMJ. I understand it is the command's decision, but no UCMJ is a bad precedence. However, if he's good people, and still of use to the Army(17 year SSG might not be solely his fault-don't know), there are ways to retain a guy and still make him useful to an organization. Especially on a post with multiple BCTs. The administrative details that follow a DUI will still make him QSP/QMP bait. |
|
Quoted:
Agree with all. Wasn't going to touch the 17 year SSG bit as that is pretty clrear. QSP should pick him up, but the unit would have to make sure they get the admin stuff done...NCOER, harass Division for a timely GOMOR, etc. UCMJ with loss of rank will also bump him down to SGT past his RCP. Also, original post mentioned no UCMJ which is odd and quite frankly wrong. MPs got him, should be no real roadblocks to UCMJ. I understand it is the command's decision, but no UCMJ is a bad precedence. However, if he's good people, and still of use to the Army(17 year SSG might not be solely his fault-don't know), there are ways to retain a guy and still make him useful to an organization. Especially on a post with multiple BCTs. The administrative details that follow a DUI will still make him QSP/QMP bait. Quoted:
Quoted:
A couple of things here: You can establish a very bad precedent by cutting him some slack on this He is a E-6 with 17 years of service in today's Army. What other issue(s) are out there? Once again, he is an E-6 with17 years, how are his QMP/QSP odds before this happened. He is an E-6 with 17 years in the Army. Even if the chain of command hammers him with UCMJ, he will still have a board to see if he gets thrown out. Agree with all. Wasn't going to touch the 17 year SSG bit as that is pretty clrear. QSP should pick him up, but the unit would have to make sure they get the admin stuff done...NCOER, harass Division for a timely GOMOR, etc. UCMJ with loss of rank will also bump him down to SGT past his RCP. Also, original post mentioned no UCMJ which is odd and quite frankly wrong. MPs got him, should be no real roadblocks to UCMJ. I understand it is the command's decision, but no UCMJ is a bad precedence. However, if he's good people, and still of use to the Army(17 year SSG might not be solely his fault-don't know), there are ways to retain a guy and still make him useful to an organization. Especially on a post with multiple BCTs. The administrative details that follow a DUI will still make him QSP/QMP bait. It is very common in my MOS to retire at E6. |
|
Quoted:
Hes forgiven in my eyes. In my younger days I did stupid stuff and just never got caught. I think he needs to be punished, worse case lose a stripe. I just don't think he needs to lose his retirement. free Quoted:
Hes forgiven in my eyes. In my younger days I did stupid stuff and just never got caught. I think he needs to be punished, worse case lose a stripe. I just don't think he needs to lose his retirement. free Quoted:
Just what the man needs. Kick him out of the only thing he has dedicated his life to.
I just don't want a good man to go to waste for a single non lethal mistake. Alcohol makes you make bad decisions. Simple as that. BTDT. (In case you missed it: Forgive him his mistake.) Since he got picked up on post, he will likely receive a maximum FG ART 15 from your BDE Commander along with a GOMAR from the CG since he was an NCO in a leadership position. This alone will not be cause to chapter him, but HRC will select him for separation in the next board. All squad leaders in my last BN who got arrested for any alcohol related offense immediately got relief for cause NCOER no matter the outcome. I imagine a similar fate will come to your guy, especially since you are in the 82nd. It sucks, but that's the current state of affairs here on Bragg. The thought process behind it is that he is no longer fit to be an example for his subordinates, since he drank and drove on post.... putting thousands of Soldiers, dependents, and children in danger. |
| Be glad he is not in the Navy, He'd have begun processing out within 96 hours and that would be it. The army has much much more tolerance for things like this than any of the services. Sucks for him but We are adults and are all held to a higher standard when we wear the uniform. |
| does the army still call drug and alcohol treatment O.A. operational awareness? get him enrolled yesterday!!! used to be 6 months treatment if a troop was squared away. that might be enough time to let the dust settle. hopefully he will keep his retirement. will a reserve or nasty girl unit take him? |
|
He has a lawyer, but the BDE CDR has disaproved his retention and has recommended him being seperated.
Sad thing is our BDE CDR is a good man, I feel he is being influenced by higher. Free Quoted:
Hmmm, rock and a hard place.... Any consideration for calling up one of those lawyers in the back of the Army Times, or a local firm, and having them plead the case in court, but do so buying time for the defendant to get him to 18 years? I would think that command cannot discharge until case is finished and he is convicted. ETA: depending on the case load where you guys are at, it could be possible to stretch sentencing out a few years. In theory, your SSG could hit 20, and get out before teh case is resolved. |
|
He has enrolled, but it won't stop the chapter process.
Free Quoted:
does the army still call drug and alcohol treatment O.A. operational awareness? get him enrolled yesterday!!! used to be 6 months treatment if a troop was squared away. that might be enough time to let the dust settle. hopefully he will keep his retirement. will a reserve or nasty girl unit take him? |
|
Quoted:
Be glad he is not in the Navy, He'd have begun processing out within 96 hours and that would be it. The army has much much more tolerance for things like this than any of the services. Sucks for him but We are adults and are all held to a higher standard when we wear the uniform. Then the Navy sure isn't like 15 years ago....know an Aviator who got a DUI as a squadron XO, and STILL got the command and promotion to O-6. |
|
Quoted:
However, if he's good people, and still of use to the Army(17 year SSG might not be solely his fault-don't know), there are ways to retain a guy and still make him useful to an organization. I've seen a few of these guys who were more interested in straphanging on deployments than going to ANCOC (Bullshit NCO school, for you non-Army types). But the Army's in transition mode now from a peacetime army with a minority wartime element in it, to a fully peacetime army that will be all about paperwork and uniform minutia. I always found a guy's utility in combat to be in inverse proportion to his mastery of AR 670-1 (that's the uniform reg, for non-Army cats, again). But then again, I was never in the 82nd which always seemed to be a show AND go outfit. The zero-tolerance-for-booze-incidents comes and goes, and its implementation depends on command emphasis (i.e. if the CG is beating on this gong you'll never get an exception) and the command's fondness for the NCO or O in question. The Army was a boozing organization until about 1983. If you needed to find the CSM, he was in the rod and bottle... the O clubs were scenes of prop blasts, exotic dancers and general debauchery... you were suspect if you didn't drink. I was stopped by the MPs and told to get my car keys at the station next morning. In a period of about two years they imposed "zero tolerance"... the O clubs had abstemious LTs who kept a tally on how much evry O was drinking... the MPs set up outside the club and took delight in nailing field grades. One of the guys in group got a DUI for riding his bicycle home from the sport parachute club with a skinful. Anyway, the Army's transitioning hard to a garrison outfit. Two years from now it'll be hard pressed to fight its way out of a wet paper bag, tank units will be A1 on paper but have no running tanks (and a couple missing complete power packs), CSS units will qualify with the M1 pencil and combat arms units will get an ammo alloc of 50 rounds / man / year. BTDT. GTTS. |
|
Quoted:
17 years and he's out for a DUI? Jeebuz. That's retarded, Sir. Maybe, but they sure tell you enough times. You get training like every other month that it's "zero tolerance" now. Plus with the wars ending, they're trying to downsize. Don't give them the ammo to shoot you with. |