Posted: 5/2/2008 2:42:37 AM EDT
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I am curious.. What do most christians think of smoking and drinking? I am LDS, so of course, smoking and drinking is a no no. but I'm wondering what others think of it. thanks Gee |
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The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not explicitly forbid smoking. However, knowing what we do about the health risks of smoking, it does go against treating your body as a temple, etc. Drinking is also not forbidden, in moderation. Drinking to excess, to the point of drunkenness however, is a sin. This is considered gluttony - one of the seven deadly sins. |
I don't want to hijack this thread, but if you'd like to get into a discussion about the seven deadly sins, as listed by Pope Gregory in the 6th century, and/or difference between mortal and venial sin, we can do that. |
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Drinking in moderaton is A-OK. Drinking to excess is bad Ju-Ju. Smoking in moderation is A-OK. Smoking to excess is bad Ju-Ju. If you are addicted to either, you have become a slave to it and should stop. If by participating in either leads to somebody else having problems, you should stop. The Bible explicitely condones drinking alcholic beverages for the right reasons. The first miracle was Jesus turning the water into good wine, not gape juice. Being drunk is not condoned and condemned. The bible is silent on smoking, so the same principles should be applied. Note that often groups of people like to create rules to absolve themselves of the responsibility to exercise wisdom. |
+1 Matthew 15:11 "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " |
Let's see . . . Jesus drank wine and he's supposed to be our example . . .  On a more serious note, Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. This is not just a mere party trick, there is a symbolic message in this miracle. The water that Jesus converted was after the manner of purification of the Jews (the red heifer stuff). Water is symbolic of spirit in the Bible. The water that the Jews used could not actually cleanse anyone of their sin ( Now, back to the wine for a second. Do you really think God would choose to use something EVIL to represent something GOOD? In other words, if wine was bad, why would he use it to represent grace? To do so would represent the very definition of blasphemy: Isa.5:20 — Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! If drinking was evil, would Jesus really have used wine as a symbol for his blood (his grace) in the last supper. THis attitude about drinking being evil makes absolutely no sense from a scriptural perspective. Now, drunkedness is another matter, however. As for smoking, I don't know of a specific scriptural reference, but my sense is that, at least in its natural form, tobacco is perfectly acceptable in moderation. After all, God created it. Smoking a pack or two a day of the chemical-laced stuff the tobacco companies foist on people is another matter, as well. The Bible does say the thought of foolishness is sin, after all. Of course, with both alcohol and tobacco, it's more complicated than whether the substance itself is sinful. If you BELIEVE it to be evil and you do it anyway, it is sin. Also, even if you know it's not evil and your use of it causes another to stumble, then you are accountable for his sin. Rom 14: [1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. [3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. [5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. [7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. (8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. [20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. [21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. |
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"If drinking was evil, would Jesus really have used wine as a symbol for his blood (his grace) in the last supper." The exact reason LDS members don't drink alcohol. D&C 89 4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation— 5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. |
Well, I hope you don't take too much offense at this, but personally, I don't consider Mormon texts to be holy scripture. But, that doesn't really matter, does it? If a Mormon does believe the Mormon text, then the admonitions in Romans 14 would apply: ". . . whatsoever is not of faith is sin" And if I am to be true to Romans 14, then I must accept the fact that you believe something different than I do and that your refusal to drink alcohol is your way of honoring God. It's not my place to judge. |
I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I know you don't care about D&C. I'm only clarifying that LDS members are told not to drink alcohol because of "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days", not because alcohol is 'evil'. |
What does that mean, exactly? — "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days"? Are you saying drinking alcohol puts evil thoughts in men's mind? Does evil spirit come out of a bottle? |
I agree completely with everything you said except the parts in blue, and I'm not sure I even disagree with those... let's just say I feel far less sure about those. 
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Mat 15 [10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: [11] Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? [13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. [15] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. [16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? [17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? [18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. [19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. |
If I tell you, can I send the missionaries to your house? Ha Ha. A quick search produced this. I'm sure there's lots more if you are interested. From 'Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay' "We must be watchful against the “evils and designs of conspiring men.” One of the most significant statements in the Doctrine and Covenants, one which carries with it evidence of the inspiration of the Prophet Joseph Smith, is found in the 89th Section … : “In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation …” (D&C 89:4.) “Evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men. …” The purport of that impressed me in the twenties, and the thirties of [the 20th] century. I just ask you … to recall the methods employed by certain tobacco interests to induce women to smoke cigarettes. You remember how insidiously they launched their plan. First, by saying that it would reduce weight. They had a slogan: “Take a cigarette instead of a sweet.” Later, some of us who like the theatre, noticed that they would have a young lady light the gentleman’s cigarette. Following this a woman’s hand would be shown on billboards lighting or taking a cigarette. A year or two passed and soon they were brazen enough to show the lady on the screen or on the billboard smoking the cigarette. … I may be wrong, but I thought I saw an indication recently that conspiring men now have evil designs upon our youth. Keep your eyes and ears open." Sounds to me like 'secret combinations' who are out for their own interests at the expense of others. |
+1 x2 I enjoy a good cigar every once in a great while. I found a web site once that condemed C.H Spurgon because he smoked cigars! No joke! |
I know what you mean. The high liklihood of addiction when taking up casual smoking makes it a dangerous habit and hard to do in moderation. But I do enjoy the occasional (as in 1 per 2 years) stogie.
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I'm curious how "drunkenness" is determined in a scriptural context? Are you drunk when you act drunk or when your blood alcohol level says you are drunk according to the 'laws of the land' or, after consuming a certain amount? Technically, impairment of judgment usually occurs after impairment of motor skills and studies have shown that this occurs after much fewer drinks than what most think. So, I guess the real question is, when dealing with something without clear-cut boundaries like this, why would anyone endanger their eternal soul over a beer or glass of wine. This is one of those areas where it appears to me, as a non-religious person, that some just do what they want and make up their own rules. If put to the "harm" test , alcohol and tobacco have cost more dollars, more lives and lowered the quality of life for more people than crack and heroin and all the other "bad" drugs combined. Don't get me wrong, it's a free (and great BTW), country and I think it's up to each individual to make their own choices, I just never understood how so many different conclusions could be drawn from the same book. I haven't drank in over 10 years or smoked in over 7 , because it was bad for me and caused some negative consequences. I enjoyed it, but ultimately it would have probably killed me. But that was me. I'm not the sort who assumes everyone drinks like I did, or that it's inherently bad. |
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It's not so much that drunkeness is specifically held out as a sin, but rather that drunkenness is used as an negative example -- typically of excess. It's a case of man being consumed with his own desires and interests, rather than turning his mind and life to God. "Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand." (Phil 4:5) |
In the Catholic sense, it depends on your intention. If you drink a few and - oops! - you get a little drunk, then its not a big deal. Learn from your mistake, watch the next time, decide that you can't control yourself after even just a few, etc. If you drink with the intention of becoming drunk, that's a sin. Clear as mud, right? |
D&C 89 9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. These are coffee and tea. Although I personally don't think that caffeine is specifically why coffee and tea are not to be used, I avoid all drinks with caffeine. In general, anything that is potentially addictive is to be avoided. I know of lots of LDS members who can't go without their diet coke or pepsi. We're all free to do what we want. |
Interesting. So it's not the caffeine that's the problem, it's the temperature of the drink? No hot chocolate? No glasses of warm milk? Iced tea is fine, but hot tea is not? Apple cider is fine but heat it up and it's a no-no? At what temperature is a drink forbidden? Also, does this apply to soup as well, or just things you sip (what if you slurp your soup)? OK, maybe that last question was stretching genuine curiousity a bit. I understand this is sort of like the Jewish thing about cheeseburgers. But I am seriously interested. Can anyone offer an explanation or provide the rationale for this rule? |
I said it's MY belief about the caffeine not being the specific reason. Caffeine is not the only ingredient in such things. Maybe I'm wrong. Yes, your question about temperature is stretching it. |
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For those who do not feel that anything we put into our mouths can "defile" us . . . . . Have a read in Daniel 1. Daniel BECAME who he was BECAUSE he refused to put certain things into his mouth. If God commands us to refrain from consumming certain things, we can obey . . . . or not. What we gain from obeying is far greater than disobeying. Uncle Al |
Ah, the difference between old testament and new testament. The letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law . . . God had to give commandments under the law because grace was not available to free us from sin. All man could do under the law was BIND sin . . . thus the law. |
Ah, the difference between "christianity" of today and the doctrine that Jesus taught. Those of you today that call yourselves "christians" and that you follow God, but do NOTHING that follows God. You do not keep the Sabbath Day holy. When your Sunday worship is over . . . it's a day at the lake, movies, restaurants, and play.(Just one example) Ah, the difference between old testament and new testament. There is no difference. It is the same Church lead by Jesus Christ. Jesus tried to bring that which was brought before the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai, but was taken back by the Lord because they were unable to live that law. By instituting the "higher law" Jesus was ADDING to what the Jews were living. He said that he wasn't sent to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. The old law wasn't done away with . . . . it was bettered or added to. I love it when "christians" of the post Nicene Creed doctrine dismiss the law of Moses. The "New Testament" did not destroy the "Old Testament" or covenant that was made between God and His children. The need for performing sacrifices was done away with Jesus' sacrifice of his body/life for us. That's it, period. Do you "christians" write off the 10 commandments? If the law of Moses is null and void . . . . then which of the 10 commandments are still commandments? The Lord gave laws concerning diet to the children of Israel to make them a peculiar people and to make much of their food symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice that was to come. D&C 89 was given to man is the last days to serve as a way to keep themselves(His people) from enslaving themselves to the cunning and evil ways of conspiring men. Look around you at the advertising/marketing of the last 100 years. One cannot think good of themselves without drinking the "silver bullet", "less filling-tastes great", the "Marlboro man", dexatrim, 5 dollar coffee at Starbucks, wait, let's look at coffee. Look around you at people you know, or even you - yourself. The line around a Starbucks store EVERY MORNING is staggering. These people HAVE to have their coffee to get going each morning. They drink coffee throughout the day just to be able to get by. Is this a good thing? Have they enslaved themselves to the things of the world? You better believe it! They have enslaved themselves(become addicts) to coffee/caffeine and they don't realize it. There was a reason that God gave His people the Word of Wisdom in the 1800's. At that time most of it did not make sense. Our's is not to make sense of God's commands, but rather to obey or not. Those who choose to obey have seen the resulting blessings of their obedience. Just like Daniel, they are privey to blessings of knowledge and hidden treasures(of knowledge). The scripture about "... what proceedeth out of the mouth defile the man..." must be understood with what is being taught. Modern day "christianity" has as much understanding of that scripture as it does of "... God is spirit...". You can say that all this "liquor is bad for you" stuff is old fashion or of the O.T., but obedience to God's will is so much more important to me than wanting to fit in with what my buddies are doing or being "COOL" for the world to see. |
That's quite a rant, but completely off-base. Jesus did bring a spriitual understanding of the law . . . if you LOOK on a woman you have committed adultery with her in your heart , etc. . . "The difference between "christianity" of today and the doctrine that Jesus taught." Need I remind you that the verses about what enters the mouth, rather than proceeds from the mouth were from Jesus. That was the doctrine he taught. The scripture is quite plain. In fact, the disciples asked about it and he repeated it, explaining that the physical things we take in end up in the sewer. It's the spritual things that matter. And yes, Jesus drank wine. In fact, some of his best work was done over dinner . . .
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". . . Completely of base . . ." , I think not. And, reading Matthew 15 and understanding what Jesus was teaching the Pharisees is quite clear. They were questioning his disciples not washing their hands before eating. He then goes on to say that what defines a man is what comes from his heart, not from what he eats(without washing his hands). But, once again, please continue to rationalize your drinking with this scripture. The "spiritual understanding", as you said, is quite simple to understand. I'll hope to be like Jesus' cousin John the baptist. Luke 1:15 As for what Jesus taught that day . . . "Those who have ears to hear will understand." |
Well, like I said on the first page of this thread, Romans 14 instructs us to honor your beliefs as a devotion to God. As such, I would not drink alcohol in front of you if I thought it might cause you to stumble. That being said, I know in my heart -- and from scripture -- that alcohol in moderation is just fine and dandy. I think Ben Franklin said it best: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." . . . 
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I'm not LDS, but have had several friends and aquaintances who are. We've posited that perhaps this and the admonition against warm drinks have had their original intent obscured by a fixation on the practice, much like Jesus often railed against those who followed the strict practice of ritual without following the meaning behind it. In other words, might not the original intent of avoiding alcohol and warm drinks have been to keep from having one's senses dulled to the "evils and designs" of the end times? Both alchohol and warm drinks can make people sleepy and unaware of things going on about them. This would then be similar to the New Testament teaching on vigilance for the return of the Son of Man. It's not that these drinks are sinful in and of themselves, but that one's awareness of the presence of evil must be kept ever-vigilant. Still, as Bladeswitcher has said, one must live by one's conscience. So for me, these things are not sinful, but their overindulgence to the point of drunkeness or gluttony would be sinful. |
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Your body is God's temple so you should treat it as such. With that said... as a nondenominational Christian I believe drinking on occasion in moderation is OK, but not to the degree that it affects your health. I used to drink like a fish, but I gave it up completely. As far as smoking goes, I can't see Jesus lighing up, but I've done worse so I won't pass judgment. |
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Your right I don’t think Jesus would light up …but for that matter I don’t think he would keep a collection of firearms ether. We need to remember the Only thing that will keep a man from a relationship with God is rejection of His Son Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior! Eating pork, smoking, drinking alcohol or caffeine or for that matter eating too much at a buffet is not going to separate a man from Jesus Christ. These things might be bad for the body but avoiding them is not a criteria for salvation. (it is not by works of righteousness we have done but according to Gods mercy He has saved us) Becoming intoxicated or hooked on a substance is abuse of your body a poor testimony and sinful but it does not cause one to lose their Salvation. (nothing can separate use from the Love of Christ) A good friend of mine struggles with smoking but Jesus loves him no less then those of us who struggle with impure thoughts. We cannot be “Good enough” to gain salvation. There is nothing we can do(or not do) to “Earn Salvation” it is a free gift. |
So does that mean that all of Paul's various admonitions, corrections and instructions to the churches, as recorded in the New Testament, are irrelevant to us? We can just tear those parts out? |
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Well the short answer is yes….but only if you are using them as a means of salvation. In fact, if by thinking that good works are necessary for salvation than the entire Bible is not going to do anyone much good other than a moral law book. Here is what Paul had to say in Romans 3. 9What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise! For we have before proved that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin. 10As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God. 12They have all gone from the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." 13"Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of asps is under their lips," 14"whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16destruction and misery are in their ways, 17and the way of peace have they not known." 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19Now we know that whatsoever things the law saith, it saith to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law, no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference, 23for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, 24being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25Him God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26to declare, I say, at this time, His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30seeing it is one God who shall justify the Circumcision by faith, and Uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the We need to key in on verse 20 and then verse 28. Man can not be saved by doing the deeds of the law but are saved through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone. Now this can raise a whole new topic on those who are saved and those who are religious. People who are simple religious think that doing good things is what makes them good people. But we read in the first half of chapter 3 that none are good! The purpose of the law is to point the lost to Christ. Not to grant those that keep it salvation. Is keeping the Law a good thing? Yes of course it is….but without a relationship with Christ it will gain a man nothing. And with a relationship with Christ it reminds us how imperfect we are and dependent on His Free Grace alone. Great men throughout the Bible abstained from eating or doing certain things but not to gain or keep a relationship with God but to make their relationship stronger. (Daniel) Great men also fell to the most vial sins such as murder and adultery. (David) God takes the strong men as well as the weak based on one thing….Free Grace to Sinners! So if you abstain from things as a Christian to walk closer with Christ that is a great thing...but it is not what keeps you saved. As the hymn says There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel’s veins; And sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains. The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day; And there have I, though vile as he, washed all my sins away. |
Paul was talking about the Law in these verses. This doesn't address the fact that he had a lot of things to say to believers in Christ in his letters. You're not really suggesting he was just spinning his wheels writing half the New Testament, are you? |
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Umm…I think one of us may be misunderstanding the other. I thought we talking about tobacco and alcohol . Of course there is much said in the new testament in regard to the Christian life. But buy no means does it ever teach that we are saved by doing or not doing certain things. I.E works. Read Matthew chapter 15 for what Jesus thought about what goes into the body vs. what comes out of the heart. |
I don't think we're misunderstanding each other at all. You said "The Only thing that will keep a man from a relationship with God is rejection of His Son Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!" I'm calling you on that contention -- at least in terms of what I think you mean by that statement. I man can say that he loves Jesus and accepts him as his Lord and Savior. He can shout it from the roof tops. But if his actions and the thoughts in his heart are not in keeping with the "works" of Christ, he is a liar. Accepting Christ is not about saying words, it's about living a life. Paul's writings in the New Testament expand on what that means and highlight some of the many ways that man gets tripped up from living a life of Christ. And BTW, I don't think living a Christ-like life has anything to do with whether you drink a little alcohol. How you think about drinking alcohol, how you allow it to affect you, and how you judge others who do or don't drink alcohol, have a LOT to do with living a Christ-like life. |
I can't believe I'm gonna say this but here goes: I agree with Bladeswitcher on this one. T1NMAN, you are right by saying that the NT does NOT say you'll be saved by doing or not certain things ALONE. "Works" alone will not get you saved, but works (meaning the way you conduct your life) BASED on your faith in Jesus Christ will. All Paul was saying in Romans was that just because you were circumcised, etc. (you follow the law) did not mean you automatically got into heaven. He just explained that the Jews and the Gentiles were on an even playing field as far as salvation was concerned. "Faith alone" is just lip service if you commit sin after sin after sin without repentance. That's like saying Jesus died on the cross to give us a "Get into Heaven Free" card. The way I see it, faith in Jesus' death on the cross make us all "eligible" to be saved. From there it's up to us. We must also live by his example, as set down in the NT, and for Catholics also according to Sacred Tradition. Of course, that's where we all part company. I believe its a sin to get drunk, because is falls under the category of gluttony. |
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Your right in that there are as Jesus said “many who will say Lord I knew you I did good things in Your name” but Jesus will say “I never knew you depart from me into everlasting fire” Simply slapping the name of Jesus onto your life is not the same as Repenting of your sins and trusting Christ as your Savior! How many people do we see today that use the name of Jesus yet never allow Him to be Lord of their lives?…the Bible says “many”. What I am talking about are those who are truly saved are saved by Grace Alone. Primarily because they recognize that they cannot “be good enough” . I believe in Free Grace, not grace given based on how good we can live our lives. Let me say that there are Christians who do allow sin into their lives and that sin creates a barrier between them and God. However!! That sin does not separate us from Gods free gift of salvation but from a closer relationship with Christ. Back on subject. Can a Christian be an struggling alcoholic…YES! Will that alcoholism effect their testimony for Christ and their walk with Him…yes. Can a Christian be addicted to nicotine ?..YES Will that addiction be a struggle in their lives ..yes. But neither will cause their Father in heaven to say You are no longer my child depart from me! I think there is more danger in those of us who look at our lack of addictions and the amount of good works we do and therein say “look at what a good Christian I am “. As Jesus called them sepulchers, white and clean on the outside but rotten on the inside. I’m sorry guys but I stick to my beliefs because I am the major case for my beliefs. I know my heart and my thoughts. And because of that I know where they would take me if it were not for Gods Grace in my life. So I disagree, If it were left up to me to “Live the Life” I would be lost and undone as the most degenerate sinner can be. “For it is not I but Christ in me” Thankfully Jesus said “Those that the Father has given me I have lost None” |