[ARCHIVED THREAD] - stopping CCW holders (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 4/12/2008 3:05:32 AM EDT
|
I'm sure this has been asked a million times before, but I haven't seen the thread in a while. The reason i ask is because one of my partners stopped a ccw holder and she handled it differently than i would have. If they declair they have it immediately, I'll clear leather, but keep it down at my side. (so they don't go reaching) I'll ask for them to keep their hands where i can see them and verbally id themselves. i'll run them while i'm still standing at the car to verify they do have a valid permit. if they didn't do anything too stupid, i'll usually cut them a break and thank them for being proactive in protecting themselves (just makes my job easier) if anything is questionable, i'll take them out, etc. how do you guys handle it? |
|
I ride a motor daily and traffic stops and accident investigation is about all I do. It all depends on the reason for the stop. If it's for a traffic violation, I ask them where the gun is and then tell them to leave there during the stop (even if they are wearing it). I do not disarm, unload the weapon, or treat them as threat. I too tell everyone that I believe that carrying a firearm is excellent idea and all who can legally carry one should. I don't get into a twist about legal guns possessed by law abiding people when we meet under what for me would be a "normal circumstance". |
What's your reason for drawing your weapon on someone who has told you that they have a weapon and are open about it? I can understand if your cop sense (6th sense) is buzzing but what if everything seems on the up and up to the best of your knowledge? |
|
From the other side, if I as a CCW holder inform you that I am carrying, I'd be pissed as hell and probably make a complaint against you if I was drawn down on or the guy drew leather. Why? because if I wanted to do "something" I'd have never told you I was carrying in the first place. If the firearm was anywhere near any paperwork you needed to see I'd inform you of that and ask how you would like me to proceed for your safety. If it was on my immediate person I'd inform you where. We are NOT enemies, druggies, crackheads, or homies, treat us like one and expect to hear from a certain portion of us who won't stand for behavior that honest men should resent. There are SOME police officers who resent the fact that persons other then police officers are allowed to CCW nowadays and go overboard or they are so afraid of firearms they stroke out at the mere thought of a firearm around. To me, thats neither professional or helpful in the situation. Hey, we both carry for the same reason, there are bad guys out there who are not our friends and wish us harm. If they did not exist, then you'd not need your firearm/s either. Stay safe. |
|
I've been pulled over a few times while carrying. ( I drive a red Porsche.) Each officer has asked me to leave the gun in the car and step away. They each took possession of it wile they ran my ID and returned it to me unloaded. I'd take it up with the officers' Captain if an officer drew on me just because I have a CCW. |
Wow, paranoia strikes deep. Incredible, just incredible. Has there been a flurry of officer shootings by CCW holders in Nevada? No wonder there's so much cop bashing on some forums. |
|
If I inform you I'm carrying *legally* and you draw your weapon simply because of that my lawyer WILL be in touch. Are you that afraid of guns? People with CCW's are not the enemy. People that mean you harm are not going to calmly inform you that they are carrying when stopped. Please explain why you do what you posted. I'm eager to hear your logic. |
|
Run their info, release or cite and release. If they appear to be impaired, relieve them of the weapon or separate them from where the weapon is located. I've only cleared leather once and it was a guy who pulled the gun before telling me he had a permit. He almost got shot. I've only ran into a handful of folks who actually had permits. |
|
I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that amusing. I also am not clear what he means by "take them out, etc." Blast them into next week, or remove them from their vehicle? |
While I agree with your last two sentences, I have to say you lost me when I read the first one. The only way it would be any funnier is to replace the word "Lawyer" with "Mommy". Look, I agree that without any other extenuating circumstance that perceiving a pistol permit holder that is armed as a threat is way over the top, but not against the law. I also don't believe your civil suit will ever make it in court, it just will not pass the smell test. I wish I had a nickel for every "wait till I tell my lawyer" I have heard in the past 14 years. I would be able to afford some ammo  .Don't take this as an attack or slam or whatever. We actually agree on this point. The "lawyer" comment just struck me as funny. |
Just curious, how'd your partner handle it? Also would you do this if there were children in the car as well?
+1 CCW holders are probably your biggest supporters and FWIW if I were driving by and saw a LEO who was on a traffic stop alone and fighting with somebody I'd stop and help the LEO out. To draw your weapon on a law abiding person who has told you they have a legally carried weapon seems excessive to me but I'm not a LEO. Now hopefully you don't pull over too many people who are CCWing as they are law abiding citizens. I've been pulled over once while carrying(trying to keep up with my brother who I was following) and the officer was completely cool about it. I gave him my license, registration, and permit and kept my hands open and in plain view during the stop. Stay safe... |
Are you talking about using force?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't force acceptable only when a threat is readily apparent and imminent...the logical, reasonable, necessary thing...if you mean deadly force I would expect that things would have to be more than merely "questionable" to shoot somebody, or at least according to that Action-Response Force Continum that you are supposed to know??? I take someone needlessly pulling a gun on me seriously, definately a word going up to higher about it. If nothing else because it's an indication that law abiding citizens are being disrespected by a LEO; said LEO who has the position and operates only by the consent of those same law abiding citizens. Dropping down to common sense for a moment, is it really suspected that someone intending to shoot a police officer right off the bat at a traffic stop is going to be sporting and announce their intentions. Additionally, since most State law requires the announcement of possession of a CCW permit and notice that a weapon is being carried, the OP would draw a weapon on a citizen merely obeying state law. |
|
Funny or not I would instruct my lawyer ,and yes I do have one, to make that cops life miserable to the fullest extent that I can afford to do so. Right or wrong if you draw your weapon on me for no good reason I'll do what I can to make us even. Please don't take this as a bash on cops because it's not. But think about what a lawyer can do to make your life hell if they want to. It's not a pretty picture. |
|
I was always told by my LEO friends to be paranoid about everyone I make contact with when I (eventually) get a LEO job. I constantly hear "treat everyone you talk to as if they were planning on killing you" over and over again. Aiming my gun at someone with CCW would be overboard. Assuring myself that I have the upper hand in a potential situation involving both of our firearms doesn't seem overboard to me IMO. Unholstering and having it at the ready seems logical to me. I would certainly thank the person for informing me and be sure to be polite and courteous still. If he asks why I have my gun out, I would simply explain that Im just protecting my own safety until I can confirm that they have a valid CCW permit. Being paranoid and pissing someone off seems like a better option than being redundant with every CCW permit holder and ending up shot because I assumed everyone with a CCW permit is a good citizen. Complacency kills in public safety professions. |
If somebody has bothered to get a CCW they are not a threat to you. Those cops that think they are a threat are probably best suited to a desk job in my opinion. Anybody got any statistics on how often a CCW holder has assaulted a cop during any encounter with police? |
Extending your logic, it would make much more sense to either: A) remove the driver, spread-eagle them on the ground, remove their gun, unload it (perhaps dropping it on the sights "accidentally") and flinging the ammo into the bushes . . . and then verifiying whether they had a valid CCW or not. B) Taze them as they sit, and just keep pulling the trigger until you are sure their CCW is valid. It's the only way to be sure . . . for Officer Safety! 
|
|
If you break leather while on a stop with me I will be writing your superiors and every gun rights organization within my state. In the future if I see you were in need of assistance on the side of the road I would make sure to keep driving. NEVER treat a law abiding citizen as a criminal and you will hold the utmost respect in our eyes. Stop and think.... Why the hell would someone looking to shoot you tell you they are armed?
|
I understand what you are saying, I just not sure you would get the satisfaction you would want and possibly deserve. While I am at it let me add, a funny thing has happened to law enforcement over the past few years (about the last 8 years). I am not sure the reason, but the profession now attracts many "Marching Band Nerds" (my apologies to those of you that marched at halftime ).The ranks are now full of "PlayStation" generation males that are soft as a titty. Many have never been in a physical fight as a child or young adult. If they were confronted by a bad guy and slapped across the chops, there first response would be to look for someone (daddy, big brother, principle, ANYBODY) to go tell. As a result, they stay away from confrontation and when forced into it, often respond a little on the "Right or Wrong, what ever it takes to protect my own ass" side.This attitude is not entirely their own fault. You see, from the first day in the academy, they begin to hear "The most important thing is Officer Safety, ALWAYS protect yourself first and go home at the end of your shift". Now don't get me wrong, I have a beautiful wife and three beautiful kids. I plan on living a long time and dying at a ripe old age, but the oath I took (very similar to the one I took when in the military) has words like "Faithfully", "Protect Against All Enemies", "Lawfully Discharge" and "Duty". It says nothing of forsaking all others to protect my own ass first. The military and law enforcement are more different than alike (that is a story for another time and thread). But the one way they are the same is sometimes the discharge of your duty, and seeing that duty through to the end, supersedes the value of your life. If you are a cop you cannot put your own safety above ALL OTHER THINGS. The job is sometimes dangerous, your personal safety cannot ALWAYS be the most important thing, accept that and move on. If you cannot, become a lawyer (I kidd, I kidd  ). Seriously, find something else to do. Of course those who think this way will not leave the profession, they have come to believe over the years this "Officer Safety First" is the 11th commandment.Now gentlemen, that is most I have ever written on this site or any other, but I have felt a need to express it to the rank and file for a long time. Oh yeah In Before I Am Accused Of Not Being A LEO!!! 
|
Man, don't do that. If they were going to shoot you they probably would not tell you they had a gun. Someday you may have someone panic and that will be a bad situation. |
|
If somebody *tells you* they are armed, and have a permit or license, their goal is NOT to shoot you when you're not looking. If their goal was to shoot you, they WOULD NOT tell you they were armed. They would just wait until you were right there, where they couldn't miss, and then that would be that. I would file a complaint if you drew on me after I told you I was armed and had a license. Or do you just draw down on everybody you pull over? |
|
As a CCW, I have been cleared by the state to carry concealed to protect myself and others if it warrents it. CCWs are ranked as people that can be trusted for protecting without enforcing the law (one step below LEOs). That's all we're good for. I always let an officer know I carry even before he begins talking. It's certainly for my safety, but also for his as well (safety of mind). When I tell an officer I'm carrying, that is a good indication to the officer that I have nothing to hide. With the exception of one bad incident I've had in the past, the rest of the time it's been positive. When my vehicle broke down in the middle of the street, an officer came up... I told him I was carrying and he said he didn't care. He helped me push my vehicle to the side and then he carried on with his business. For an LEO to drawn down on me after the fact tells me that he is without respect and without trust. He's paranoid and needs to watch less Hollywood. Think about it. One would be more concerned with someone that didn't say anything. Of course, that would raise alarms. |
Thanks for this. |
If I had a dollar for every time that I heard someone say that I would hear from their lawyer, I'd be a rich person!! This statement is just silly. Those of you who think that a lawyer would take this, obviously don't know the law. What would you sue the officer/department for? Civil rights violation? Doesn't apply. Drawing his weapon? Not a crime. Being too cautious? Not a crime. One of my fellow officers recently was on patrol and came across a guy at a business at about 0200. He stopped to check on the guy. Now I'm indirectly related to the guy via my wife. He's a nice guy and is a good person but he looks a little rough. My buddy stopped to check on him because of the late hour and unusual activity. My buddy didn't know the guy. The guy started behaving in an unusual manner and dropped his shoulder in such a way that the officer became nervous. The officer drew his weapon but kept it low. They continued talking and the officer realized that he was not dealing with a threat and he holstered his weapon. They talked and ended up shaking hands and realized that it was a big misunderstanding. The next morning, the man's wife came in and filed a complaint. My department investigated the complaint and ruled the officer as justified. And he was. Good luck if you were that person and wanted to sue....not going to happen. Those who would call their lawyer don't have a clue what they are talking about. |
Don't go into LEO work, you'll end up shooting some 90 year old little old lady because she seemed like a threat to you. Use the common sense God gave you along with the training provided to you and take advantage of other people on the force with common sense. Ask yourself, is some guy who has a CCW, has had a background check, has passed NICs most likely and TELLS you he has a CCW the threat or is it the guy who blows your ass away when you walk up to the car because his truck is full of coke or he's out on parole and has something in the vehicle thats going to send him back there or he's some punkass gang member out to make a name for himself? Hint: it ain't the guy that spent $$$$, time, and followed the law to carry concealed lawfully. My first goal is to not be stopped in the first place, if I am then my second goal is to make sure the stop goes as smoothly as possible for BOTH of us. I DON'T like guns pointed at me, PERIOD, end of story. Having a CCW is not a license to the police to point guns at me nor will I be anything other then calm and courteous during the stop even if I AM drawn on. Would you drawn down on a fellow officer from another department if HE was carrying concealed and notified you? If not, why would you draw down on a legally armed person with as much right to carry as that fellow officer? Stay safe. |
The officer safety movement has done some great things for law enforcement as far as making officers think before doing things and encouraging smart use of tactics. However, the officer safety movement has also forgotten DUTY and puts safety before duty. I agree 100% and I won't accuse you of not being an LEO!!!! I've been saying this for awhile. |
But this a quite different specific circumstance from the general situation the OP stated. Time, place and exhibited behavior quite reasonablely warranted the response. |
not a single person has bashed. I read your post as trying to squash comment on another cops action. Sorry not gonna work. As for my comments about using a lawyer lets leave that discussion for another thread. I want to hear the OP's reasoning for clearing leather as he described. I would be disappointed if my comments distracted from that happening. Thanks. |
|
To the OP: You still haven't responded as to why you feel the need to draw your weapon in this case. Please explain you reasoning. If you keep up with that approach, you will find yourself getting a lot of complaints. The complaints may not be valid but who wants to get complaints that can be avoided? I've been complained against and don't worry about it. All the complaints that I have ever gotten were BS and easy to recognize as BS. This complaint, while not totally valid, does have some merit. If I was your supervisor, I would talk to you about your actions and attempt to talk some sense into your head. Oh and "clear leather" is not a professional term....sounds very amatuerish. Sounds like a rookie. How long you been a cop? |
Seems like a discussion so far, with points of view and misc experiences being expressed.|
I always understand an officer's need to protect him/herself, but clearing leather on an admitted CCW holder might be a little extreme. They are lawfully carrying and inform you upfront. It doesn't bode well for police to treat law abiding citizens in an automatic confrontational manner just because they have a CCW. My .02 though... |
Bashing is not allowed in the GD, either. Bashing has been pretty clearly defined as painting all of the members of a certain group with the same broad, negative brush. So, you could say that "bashing" is the worst form of stereotyping. No bashing here. We aren't the 'droids you're looking for. Move along, move along. |
What I hope your LEO friends said was "Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." I appreciate your service as a firefighter and wish you a safe, very long and successful career in that praiseworthy vocation. Despite my best efforts, I'm at a loss to figure out what you mean by "redundant" in the context of your post. |
+1 |
|
I understand both sides to this argument. Even if it were true that no LEO anywhere had ever been killed by a CCW holder, that doesn't make them a non-threat. Anyone we have contact with is a potential threat. A citizen having a gun just makes them a more capable potential threat. Assuming anyone, much less an armed person, is foolish. We must remain on our guard. That said, I agree that drawing a gun just because you are informed by a driver that they are a CCW holder and have a gun in the vehicle is a bit over the top. I use a level 2 retention holster and when approaching a vehicle on a traffic stop I undo the retention device and have the gun essentially at the same "ready" as if I had drawn it and had it pointing down by my leg (which is what I believe the OP meant, not actually pointing it at the car occupants). While tactics and Officer Safety are good, we must remember that we deal with law abiding citizens as well. Public perception is real and while I will not sacrafice my safety to appease an uninformed citizen, I just can't see drawing a weapon in the situation you describe. |
|
I would think that in the OP's case a person who was lawfully CCWing told the officer(s) that he was carrying did so thinking it would be a courteous thing to do to inform the officer that they had a weapon. If I were a LEO, I would certainly like to know that somebody had a gun, to avoid any surprises from either party involved. Do you think that a person who is drawn down on by an officer would be willing to try that courtesy again after looking down the barrel of a gun or even having a gun removed from it's holster? Keep in mind that a CCW holder has had background checks and by obtaining the CCW permit is doing everything they need to do to continue to be a law abiding citizen. I think that it would at least alienate the CCW holder from telling any future officer they had a weapon. FWIW I haven't seen any bashing going on here and this isn't going anything like what I think the same type thread in GD would be. I wouldn't call a lawyer and I probably wouldn't complain to the OP's brass, depending on how things went. But in my opinion if a guy wants to do you in he's probably not going to let you know they have a gun. Stay safe... |
|
Oh, and I forgot to address the lawyer thing. I know it's cliche but if I had a nickel for every time... Look, lawyers don't scare us. If an Officer is scared of a lawyer, they seriously need to look for another line of work. I understand your feelings about having a gun pulled on you at a traffic stop, but leave the lawyer talk at home. It makes it harder to take you seriously. |
| I've only ever dealt with one guy that had a CCW and was armed. He was pulled over on the side of a busy road and we pulled in behind him to check. He had pulled over because his windshield fogged up and he couldn't see, and he notified me right away. I didn't even consider getting my gun out and I didn't feel threatened in any way. |
Lets say it wasn't a traffic stop and you were not in uniform. Lets say we were at Walmart ( ) standing at the gun counter and you say "oh, I need to get some 9mm so I can practice with my CCW piece" and I say "cool, I'm gonna get some 45's so I practice with mine". I ask "are you carying now" and you say "yep". I should immediately "clear leather" and hold you until I can verifiy your you are indeed an LEO and not some worthless criminal who is probably going to try to steal some ammo so he can go shoot up a school...you know, better safe than sorry.Sounds asinine doesn't it? Edit:: I saw this in active topics and posted, I didn't realize it wasn't GD, I am not an LEO, can I post here or am I gonna get teh ban hammer  .
|
 Got a point!!! |
I understand your first paragraph but then again, numerous posts have been made of scumbag police officers who are criminals with badges. While very rare, should I as a CCW holder make sure MY weapon is ready to go at a moments notice. I do understand your "make ready" point, but at the same time, you have to realize that at least in my State, CCW holders are vetted pretty well and I'd expect we have a better record then, say the Detroit PD as far as numbers VS poor/criminal behavior. Now I'm being a bit of a smart alek but even in my area there have been more police bad guys then CCW badguys, even tho I'd bet we outnumber the police 10 to 1. We stay out of troubles if at all possible because it behooves us to do so. |
I guess I should make myself clear. ANY contact I have with law enforcement is only through my lawyer. Of course this can't happen when being pulled over but for any and all other contacts I have a lawyer present or handling it entirely. I take my rights extremely seriously and I have never played games with this. Even speeding tickets are handled via a lawyer. |
It's nice to have money . . . |