Posted: 11/15/2010 3:34:47 PM EDT
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So here is my $1200 paperweight...just came back from S&W for issues with 2x feed and 3-point failures.
Factory: "Customer Complaint: Chambering Repaired: Barrel Modification Customer Complaint: Extraction Repaired: Adjust Slide To BBL Fit" I can't even chamber a round from slide lock without it jamming, no less cycle a whole magazine by hand. I haven't fired it since getting it back, the failure is on the first round and either one of the other first three or the last or all of the above. S&W has "no idea what that could be." Sending it back AGAIN tomorrow. This gun has 200 rounds through it, cleaned and lubed, factory Federal or WWB ammo and 3 brands of 7 different mags. Help. S&W has, "no further info" on what they did to it beyond what is on the paper I got...so who knows.... 
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That looks to be a little further along than the typical 3-point jam. Will it go into battery if you nudge the back of the slide?
It could be an extractor issue or a feed ramp problem. Let's hope S&W finally figures out what's going on. I'd suggest including the ammo and mags so that they can replicate the issue. |
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Quoted: That looks to be a little further along than the typical 3-point jam. Will it go into battery if you nudge the back of the slide? It could be an extractor issue or a feed ramp problem. Let's hope S&W finally figures out what's going on. I'd suggest including the ammo and mags so that they can replicate the issue. Looks like an extractor issue. |
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I question the extractor but since it's a external version I don't know. If nudging the slide forward completely chambers the round I would seriously look at the recoil spring. And as others mentioned use a known good quality hardball ammo for the testing. Doesn't matter the type if it has too much tension (could be a heavier spring, thicker coils, too many coils, maybe binding). I'm grasping at straws because I've never owned an external extractor 1911. Give Smith another chance. If they still don't fix it, see if they'll buy it back. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The first question that should be asked here fellas and first answer given should be how does it cycle with Winchester White Ball 230 grain ammunition ?
Variances in ammunition can stop a perfectly working stock 1911 cold. NOT ALL 45ACP AMMUNITION IS MADE TO RUN IN ALL STOCK 1911s. Extractors, Recoil Springs are all just wild guesses until we know what type of ammunition he's trying to cycle. Just because there is a SAAMI spec for 45acp brass doesn't mean all 45acp brass is SAAMI spec. Hornady's case rims will stop some stock extractors cold. Nickel plate will stop some. I clearly see that's not being used here, just the same it stops some cold. Over all length will vary in 45acp ammunition from 1.175 to 1.265. As a rule anything under 1.20 is a problem for stock, cookie cutter 1911s. In fact 1.230 can do a good job of throwing one into 3 point bind. 1911s tend to be tolerance stacked from the box. Ammunition compounds the problem. When purchasing ammunition you have to keep in mind that 45acp is made for different feed system other than Controlled Feed. Winchester White Ball 230 grain is the closest ammunition to original Mil-Spec ammunition we have today. When I say that I'm also saying it's the closest thing we have to JMB's intended round for his 1911. Something to ponder..... Wilson Combat in the ammunition business. Bet it cycles well in their guns. Think about it. 
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That's like changing the spark plugs chasing an ECM problem..... Diagnosis is what's needed here, not parts chasing.
I'm suspect of extractor too. How ever the pistol just came back from Smith and Wesson and having experience with their skill set and service expertise. I'm thinking for sure they cycled, if not test fired the gun. Always check for ammunition related failure first. |
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does the cartrage have a nick in the bullet after you eject the non-spent round that jammed?
I have a pistol (not a .45) that did the same, but when returned to smith they did some modifing to the feed ramp face and bottom inside of the bbl. this stopped the problem. one clue was on the non-spent bullet, there was clearly a nick indicating the front of the bullet made it past the ramp but the bullet cought the ill fitting barel on the bottom. Sorry, just my two cents worth, worth two cents Oh the round trip to S&W including the fix was about 3 1/2 weeks which I thought was a very good turn around time. All in all I give them high marks, they also included a letter detailing the fix . I do have a first gen .45 S&W .45 auto mod 645SS I think, and I have shot everything through it with no problems including hand loads with used brass and still no problems, this one's a good gun 
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Quoted:
So here is my $1200 paperweight...just came back from S&W for issues with 2x feed and 3-point failures. Factory: "Customer Complaint: Chambering Repaired: Barrel Modification Customer Complaint: Extraction Repaired: Adjust Slide To BBL Fit" I can't even chamber a round from slide lock without it jamming, no less cycle a whole magazine by hand. I haven't fired it since getting it back, the failure is on the first round and either one of the other first three or the last or all of the above. S&W has "no idea what that could be." Sending it back AGAIN tomorrow. This gun has 200 rounds through it, cleaned and lubed, factory Federal or WWB ammo and 3 brands of 7 different mags. Help. S&W has, "no further info" on what they did to it beyond what is on the paper I got...so who knows.... http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af152/emsjeep/IMG_20101115_193032.jpg?t=1289867563 Have you tried a stronger recoil spring? |
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1) SOMETIMES I can nudge the slide forward, most times it takes it takes a firm smack, if I can get it to go at all.
2) I am using WWB 230gr FMJ, Federal Champion 230gr FMJ and PMC 230gr FMJ 3) Smith test fired the gun. 4) If I lock the slide back, insert a magazine and rack it to chamber the first round, it usually jams right there. If I really put some muscle into it, sometimes I can get it. 5) The bullet doesn't appear to be damaged. 6) Extractor: a- I don't think the extractor is behind the case rim. I worked the extractor with a case rim for a few minutes...it then started giving me some pretty fun extraction failures. I believe Smith did some work on the extractor, its extracting OK now, but the other problem is the same. 7) When actually shooting, the failure is usually on the first round I attempt to chamber or the last round coming out of the mag. Cycling by hand produces many more failures. |
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What magazine are you using? Does it jam with every mag you have? Since S&W fired it and returned it to you as repaired I would suspect something on your end. Did you send a mag with the pistol when you sent it in? Jim 7 different Magazines, and I sent 3 of them with the gun. 4 Chip McCormick 10 rd, 2 S&W 8rd and 1 Wilson Combat 8rd. |
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3 point jams can be hard to cure. I'm unnaturally good at it! Can you take in-focus, clear pics of the barrel mouth? Mebbe I can help.  This is the best I have, if its still not working when it comes back I'll take some better ones. 
Someone asked about contact in the process of feeding, so this round is pushed down a little bit... 
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Have you tried placing the round under the extractor with the slide out of the pistol to see how it fits? Jim Yeah, I tried to work the extractor a little bit to loosen it up...it just caused more extraction failures... It is supposed to be able to hold the loaded round while you shake the slide. It shouldn't be so tight that you have a hard time placing the round under the extractor. BTW your extractor isn't "clocked" is it? I don't know if that affects external extractors or not. Jim |
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http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af152/emsjeep/IMG_20101115_212201.jpg?t=1289874552 Is your slide stop rubbing the round here? Thats what we were trying to determine. I'm pushing the round down into the magazine to get a clear view of the proximity. I honestly couldn't say if it was touching or not, if it is, it is only slightly, if it isn't I don't know if I could slip a piece of paper into the space. In any event, this wouldn't have anything to do with the first round not feeding from slide lock. That portion of the slide stop sits between the first and second round... |
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I'm having the same problem on my S&W 1911ES, although it is about 1-2 in 100 rounds and random rounds within a mag. I have about 600 rounds through it so far. It used to do it about 1 in 20 rounds, and has gotten better as I shoot it, but not to my satisfaction. On mine, it appears that the extractor is extremely tight, but I am new to external extractors on 1911's. The breech face also appears somewhat rough and might be contributing to the issue. this is with both the factory mags as well as Wilson combat mags. I have tried about 5 brands of ammo, including WWB and my own reloads.
I have not sent it back to S&W yet. |
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Your first pic shows the mag releasing the round early before the ejector claw slips into the case rim. What mags are you using and do all mags, including ones that are not from S&W do the same thing? Have you tried other good mags or only the OEM ones? What does the breech face look like? Is it smooth or is it rough or does it have some bad machining on the lower part of it or on the sides? If the round is releasing early and the extractor claw is behind the rim, that is your feed issue problem because it's pushing the bullet into the slide lock as the claw attempts to ride over the end of the case into the groove. When it jams, stop and carefully inspect exactly where it stopped at without attempting to force the round into the chamber further.
Also, field strip it and take each round and drop them into the barrel chamber, they should drop in with no issue. Do it to take that issue out of the equation. Did you send in the mags with the firearm when it went to S&W? If it's mag related and you didn't send in yours, they might not have seen the issue you are seeing. |
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Your first pic shows the mag releasing the round early before the ejector claw slips into the case rim. What mags are you using and do all mags, including ones that are not from S&W do the same thing? Have you tried other good mags or only the OEM ones? What does the breech face look like? Is it smooth or is it rough or does it have some bad machining on the lower part of it or on the sides? If the round is releasing early and the extractor claw is behind the rim, that is your feed issue problem because it's pushing the bullet into the slide lock as the claw attempts to ride over the end of the case into the groove. When it jams, stop and carefully inspect exactly where it stopped at without attempting to force the round into the chamber further. Also, field strip it and take each round and drop them into the barrel chamber, they should drop in with no issue. Do it to take that issue out of the equation. Did you send in the mags with the firearm when it went to S&W? If it's mag related and you didn't send in yours, they might not have seen the issue you are seeing. 7 Mags do the same thing, 3 different brands. 3 brands of ammo. As I recall the breach face looked OK. I'll take another look when it comes back. |
| I got the gun back today, they replaced the BBL and extractor and "modified the slide" I have no idea what that means. It appears to have been resolved, it still has an intermittent failure to come to battery on the second round hand cycling if I slooowwwly ride the round in, which is not completely abnormal. I'll have to go out and shoot it. |
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Don't worry about what it does hand cycling slowly. Doesn't mean much. Yeah, I'm not concerned, and its a failure to battery (not on the first round) and it can be corrected by slapping it forward unlike a 3-point jam that requires cycling. I can't wait to get it back out to the range. The Breech face looks smooth and clean, no tool marks, even at the margins. |
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try different ammo then try and tune it according to my thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=70569 eta: looks like the slide stop is sticking out too much, try a Brown slide stop or file that one down so the round clears |