Posted: 5/10/2010 8:28:37 AM EDT
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I have a BHP with new sights. Took it out for the first time yesterday. It shot 1.5"-2.5" low at seven yards with 147gr HST SD ammo. Shoots 3-4" low with 115gr white box. That's a heckuva lot at 7 yards. It will be in the dirt further out. Does someone make lower front sights that will fit in a MKIII front? Don't think I can file on it too much given the night sights tube. May have to forego night sights, get another MKIII front, and file it down. It's a nice custom piece and this is kind of frustrating.
Also, relative to shooter fault, that is certainly a real possibility. However, the other two pistols (1911/M&P 9c) I was shooting from the same rest were fine and the M&P is harder to shoot well. |
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Uhm before you go trying to "fix" the problem. I would seriously have a qualified shooter fire your handgun. Too much of "shooting low" is 99% the shooters fault, its called Anticipating the shot aka fishing.
How exactly is an M&P harder to shoot? It may be harder for YOU to shoot due to grip angle, recoil, etc. unless there is something wrong with it, I would figure the M&P would be easier and smoother to shoot than a BHP. |
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I would shoot it a bit more, and have someone else shoot it before making any changes. I would also try shooting it a bit further out to see where it's hitting at say 15 - 25 yards. Is this your DW Hi-Power? If so maybe you could contact Don and see what he says. Heinie makes several different height front sights, maybe you could send him just the slide and he could swap it out for you.
http://www.heinie.com/index.php?cPath=9_28&sort=3a&page=1 |
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What picture of the sight are you using? Are you expecting them to hit at the TOP of the post. The POI on my HiPower is half way down the post. Even though there isn't a Dot there. It's pretty much like most other pistols. Their point of impact is more down on the post, It makes sense with the ones with a white dot or something. And that is typical. My 1911 shoots to the top of the post, which I prefer, but it's the only pistol I have that is set up that way from the factory.
It could also be that something is wrong, but I just thought I'd throw that out there in case you hadn't thought about that. You may have. |
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Uhm before you go trying to "fix" the problem. I would seriously have a qualified shooter fire your handgun. Too much of "shooting low" is 99% the shooters fault, its called Anticipating the shot aka fishing. How exactly is an M&P harder to shoot? It may be harder for YOU to shoot due to grip angle, recoil, etc. unless there is something wrong with it, I would figure the M&P would be easier and smoother to shoot than a BHP. I'm not 'qualified' to determine POI at 7 yards from a rest? Damn.  Always a chance of shooter error however this is not my only BHP and I was shooting cloverleafs with the 1911 in the same session. Still.. while I wouldn't say 99%, certainly a good chance of it and needs to be run to ground.
- Why this BHP is easier to shoot than a M&P compact: - Grip: Nill grips that perfectly fill the hand compared with expert stippling offering one of the best service pistol grips available compared to the OK grip with the finger extension for a CCW. - Sights: Heinie's with a slightly opened rear aperture compared to Novaks on the M&P. Both are good. Heinie's a bit better. Sight radius favors the BHP. - Weight: The BHP is an all steel pistol running a 15 rd magazine. M&P 9c is a plastic pistol with a 12 round magazine. BHP has more heft. - Trigger: And most important... 4.5 lb absolutely crisp custom trigger job on the BHP compared to the total POS creepy trigger with vague reset on the M&P. Going to spend some dry fire time with the gun this week and see if I can't see something I'm doing different with this pistol versus the others. You can never rule out the shooter.. |
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Good insights and I much appreciate it.
I have some things to check out. Want to see where on the post POI is exactly. I was kind of hoping for a 'normal' sight picture at the top of the post but we'll see how it's set up. Might be something I'm doing and will have to figure out some good analytical way to sort that out. Maybe a session next weekend with multiple BHP's and some focus on good technique. Thing is.. we're talking slow fire from a rest at 7 yards. Not all that easy to screw up. Not going back to Don yet. Assuming I'm missing something here since this is a pretty standard set up from him and he's had years to dial these things in. He's easy to work with though and I won't hesitate to call him if further shooting and analysis calls for it. Going to spend some quality dry firing this week (yep.. snap caps to protect the plate). Next weekend I'll go out with this gun and my other BHP to compare side by side. We'll see. |
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This isn't your new Don Williams gun is it? That would be an absolute shame, but if so I suspect he would make it right. It is but for now let's assume I'm misunderstanding or screwing up on something since he probably has the sight thing down pat. He is good to work with though and if there were a problem I'm sure he would make it right. |
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could it be that the pistol was sighted in at 25 yds with a specific ammo? I know when I had Novak sights put on my Hi-Power, I was asked what ammo I wanted the sights sighted in with, and at what range, or they would default to 25 yds I couldn't imagine the ammo weight or type make that big of a difference at 7 yards unless it was sighted in at 100 yards or more. I am interested in the issue here. It is probably something tiny that no one has thought of yet. Keep us updated. |
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could it be that the pistol was sighted in at 25 yds with a specific ammo? I know when I had Novak sights put on my Hi-Power, I was asked what ammo I wanted the sights sighted in with, and at what range, or they would default to 25 yds I couldn't imagine the ammo weight or type make that big of a difference at 7 yards unless it was sighted in at 100 yards or more. I am interested in the issue here. It is probably something tiny that no one has thought of yet. Keep us updated. Taking a look at things tonight I'm guessing this thing is sighted in for SD ammo centered on the front dot. Lining it up on a wall 20 ft away with a point to aim at it looks like that's a real possibility why POI seemed low. I'm pretty sure whatever issue is in play it's something on my learning curve about the gun and not the product. I will keep you posted after another range visit though. |
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could it be that the pistol was sighted in at 25 yds with a specific ammo? I know when I had Novak sights put on my Hi-Power, I was asked what ammo I wanted the sights sighted in with, and at what range, or they would default to 25 yds I couldn't imagine the ammo weight or type make that big of a difference at 7 yards unless it was sighted in at 100 yards or more. I am interested in the issue here. It is probably something tiny that no one has thought of yet. Keep us updated. IMHO, it does make a difference. Most of my 9mm pistols will shoot to the dot with 115 grain ammo and then 147's will hit at the top of the post at about 10 yards. That's been my experience. At least for sure with my Beretta M9, and my G19. I don't know if I ever tested the theory with the HiPower. But I agree with Opey and there may have been certain ammo zero'd by the smith. I think that may be typical. |
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could it be that the pistol was sighted in at 25 yds with a specific ammo? I know when I had Novak sights put on my Hi-Power, I was asked what ammo I wanted the sights sighted in with, and at what range, or they would default to 25 yds I couldn't imagine the ammo weight or type make that big of a difference at 7 yards unless it was sighted in at 100 yards or more. I am interested in the issue here. It is probably something tiny that no one has thought of yet. Keep us updated. IMHO, it does make a difference. Most of my 9mm pistols will shoot to the dot with 115 grain ammo and then 147's will hit at the top of the post at about 10 yards. That's been my experience. At least for sure with my Beretta M9, and my G19. I don't know if I ever tested the theory with the HiPower. But I agree with Opey and there may have been certain ammo zero'd by the smith. I think that may be typical. I agree there are some differences but not 3-4 inches at 7 yards. If you take that out to 25 yards we are talking several feet low. The difference between the dot and the top of the sight at 7 yards might be an inch or so at 7 yards. |
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could it be that the pistol was sighted in at 25 yds with a specific ammo? I know when I had Novak sights put on my Hi-Power, I was asked what ammo I wanted the sights sighted in with, and at what range, or they would default to 25 yds I couldn't imagine the ammo weight or type make that big of a difference at 7 yards unless it was sighted in at 100 yards or more. I am interested in the issue here. It is probably something tiny that no one has thought of yet. Keep us updated. IMHO, it does make a difference. Most of my 9mm pistols will shoot to the dot with 115 grain ammo and then 147's will hit at the top of the post at about 10 yards. That's been my experience. At least for sure with my Beretta M9, and my G19. I don't know if I ever tested the theory with the HiPower. But I agree with Opey and there may have been certain ammo zero'd by the smith. I think that may be typical. I agree there are some differences but not 3-4 inches at 7 yards. If you take that out to 25 yards we are talking several feet low. The difference between the dot and the top of the sight at 7 yards might be an inch or so at 7 yards. But he hasn't confirmed what POI he is expecting. If he is expecting top of post, it could possibly be the problem. I agree, too much shift is not proper. Although some barrels are weird that way. I have a colt AR that's a terrible POI shifter. Like 4-6" at 25 meters, depending on ammo of course. |
| I was expecting top of post and that's what I shot at. Was working on a few guns and didn't spend a lot of time figuring out details. Rains may intervene this weekend, but as soon as I can I'll get back to the range and see where on the post the POI is. May be at the nightsight dot with SD ammo and quite a bit lower with white box. If POI is lower than I can live with I can always look into a shorter front sight. Will also see how it does with that wally world RWS stuff. |
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PIstols are very recoil sensitive in terms of shooting to point of aim.
Ballistically, there is not much difference between 115 gr and 147 grain at defensive pistol ranges (7-25 yards) . If you drop a 115 gr bullet and a 147 grain bullet from 5', they will both hit the ground at the same time - as would those same bullets fired parallel to the ground. In the latter case, the only difference is how far they each fly downrange before they impact the ground adn that difference is what creates different trajectories. However, the time of flight differences over a short 25 yard range are minimal and consequently the differences in trajectory are minimal. However, most shooters will agree they hoot to a different point of aim. If you crunch the numbers, a 147 gr bullet at 1000 fps zeroed at 25 yards in a Hi Power (with a difference between thre top of the post and center of the bore of 0.5") will: impact 0.14" low at 7 yards, will impact to POA at 11 yards, will have a maximum mid range trajectory of 0.11 inches at 17 yards, and will impact at POA at 25 yards. In contrast, a 115 gr bullet at 1300 fps will : impact 0.22" low at 7 yards, will impact to POA at 17 yards, will have a maximum mid range trajectory of 0.02 inches at 22 yards, and will impact at POA at 25 yards. So the difference between either bullet is going to be less than .10" at any range out to 25 yards If you correct the zero range to get the same 7 yard trajectory, you end up with a 50 yard zero for the 115 grain bullet and have a POI .5" high at 25 yards. Again, this is a really minimal difference at 25 yards. Similarly, if you change the zero for the 147 grain round to shoot to the same 7 yard POI as the 115 gr bullet you end up with a 17 yard zero and will be .16 low at 25 yards. So the extreme spread here at 25 yards is only .66 inches. Not much of a difference regardless of how the weapon is set up. There is also minimal difference in recoil. The weight of a loaded BHP is about 2.2 lbs and a 115 gr bullet at 1300 fps has a recoil velocity of 11.6 fps and a recoil energy of 4.6 ft pounds compared to 11.1 fps and 4.2 ft pounds for the 147 grain bullet at 1000 fps. However, this is where the lower velocity does make a difference. The longer time in the barrel and slight differences in recoil energy and velocity change the angle of departure slightly and will change the POI well out of proportion to the exterior ballistics involved. The point of all this is that recoil of the pistol is important and impacts then POI. What is less obvious is that when you shoot off a rest, you drastically change how the weapon reacts under recoil. In short, the point of impact from a pistol fired from a rest (either a machine rest or shooting with the frame or butt resting on a bag) will not be the same as the POI when fired from a normal shooting stance. So before you get upset and decide to change the sights, shoot the gun like you will in the real world and see where it is really shooting. |
| Haven't been able to make it back to the range to do some more experimentation and research, however Don Williams, the custom maker that worked on my pistol, sent me an email based on this thread saying he can change the POA/POI if needed. How is that for customer service?? He knows a lot more about making pistols than I know about shooting them and even though it's likely something I don't understand or something I'm doing.. the guy contacts me first with an offer to help. Pretty impressed. |
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Haven't been able to make it back to the range to do some more experimentation and research, however Don Williams, the custom maker that worked on my pistol, sent me an email based on this thread saying he can change the POA/POI if needed. How is that for customer service?? He knows a lot more about making pistols than I know about shooting them and even though it's likely something I don't understand or something I'm doing.. the guy contacts me first with an offer to help. Pretty impressed. I am still on his waiting list just to send my pistol for custom work and have never once thought the wait wouldn't be worth it. Talk about great customer service, this guy has people beating down his door just to get work done and he seeks out issues before anyone ever complains. Good on you Don. |
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OK.. made it to the range this weekend. Set up from a solid rest at 50feet with various ammo types and a couple of high powers.
- The new BHP custom is shooting right on with SD ammo at 50 ft if I aim using the night sight front dot centered on the bullseye. I prefer a 6 o'clock hold from the top of the sight but I get the logic. - With a 6 o'clock hold, SD ammo was about 4"-5" low - Winchester white box and RWS 124 gr shot about 2" higher than the SD ammo as expected. I used to shoot 1" groups with my 1981 BHP from a rest at 50 feet. Now I find myself shooting 3" (a few larger) 5 round groups at 50ft from a friggin rest. Both pistols shot about the same groups. Winchester white box (115gr) and RWS 124gr shot about the same and were tighter than the SD ammo. I need lots of practice both to get around aging eyesight and infrequent trips to the range. I know the guns will shoot better than this. I'm still going to have Don Williams install a KKW barrel. They cost $200 on the KKW website and he supplies the barrel and fits them for $230. Even with shipping, that's just too good a deal. I may ask him to adjust the front sight for a 6 o'clock hold as well but I won't take him up on his offer to do it for free. The gun is already set up how many would prefer it for SD use. |
| I've never been fond of how pistols are set up to shoot so low on the post. But that's just how it is. If you want tiny groups, I guess you'd have to get some bomars or other adjustables and play with it. But from what I can tell, most "defensive" type pistols are set up to shoot to the middle of the post. My kimber is the only one that shoots to the top. I've never ever experienced a pistol that has coincided with a 6 o clock hold. I think that would be more annoying than shooting to the dot, IMHO. Too much space inbetween for me. hehehhe. Although it does make sense if you're shooting more instinctively. |