Posted: 2/1/2008 7:27:10 AM EDT
| Alrighty heres what im thinking. I am under the impression that a small 22 will do enough damage point blank type situation to keep someone off of me. Would most of you say i am correct in this? Im just throwing this out becouse im considering a backup pistol. Now mind you this will be if the SHTF and someone trys to grab my HK from me. My thinking is ill carry the 22 in a left pcket and keep my right on the HK and put the 22 into the dudes neck/eye/temple. Is this sound thinking, or should i go for something a bit bigger? Im thinking about the Beretta pocket pistols to use as my backup. I have owned one 3032 and a few kel-tecs. In my mind the Beretta is a better pistol, but the 3032 is a bit big to carry in my pockets. So would the Beretta 22 be a sound backup option? |
| I did the 22 thing as a second gun for a short time and soon realized that it was no easier than a small 38+p or 357. Now I carry a P-12 Para in 45acp with an extra mag or two and a J frame backup in 357. I always carry and if I'm just running down to the corner I might just take my backup as the main event. I would not do that with a 22. |
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I'd have to disagree with some of the replies. A J frame isn't the same size as a mini auto like a Beretta Bobcat or a Kel-Tec P3AT. I don't have a mini Beretta but I do have a P3AT and a 340PD. The 340 is much longer, taller and most importantly wider than the P3AT. The P3AT in a Nemesis pocket holster is about the size of a wallet and fits comfortably in my back pocket and is comfortable to sit on pretty much anything other than a hard bench or wooden chair. I can sit on it in my office chair or in my car without any discomfort. The 340 on the other hand sticks above my back pocket so the butt is clearly visible and it is also way too thick to sit on, even in a padded chair. They are two different size "classes" in my opinion. Another common misconception is the power of a 38+p or .357 magnum out of a barrel that is less than 2" (1 7/8" to be exact). It's funny how you see posts on here all the time arguing about which caliber is better but no one seems to mention barrel length which is critical to performance of any round. Right from Speer's website for their Gold Dot ammo: 9mm 124gr 4" test barrel (G19 perhaps?) 1150FPS, 364 ft/lbs .357 Magnum 135 gr. 2" test barrel: 990FPS, 294 ft/lbs .38 +P 2", 135gr. 2" test barrel: 860FPS, 222 ft/lbs Double up the length of the .357 barrel and you can push a 158gr bullet to 1235FPS and creat 535 ft/lbs of energy. That's an amazing jump in performance by adding only 2" of barrel length! .357 Magnum sounds so superior to the puny little 9mm (  ) until you do a little bit of digging. Speer offers that 9mm Gold Dot load in +P too which will give it even more of an advantage.While the J frame is a great BUG, it will only serve you well if you really carry it. My personal preferance is a lighter, more compact BUG like the P3AT. :) |
Agreed. If you need your back-up , you REALLY need it. Things have gone from bad to worse and you need it to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. |
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The only guy I know who carries a .22LR revolver calls it is "over the shoulder gun". He explains that it is the gun he plans to fire over his shoulder while he is running like hell. At best he hopes to hit the guy in the leg so that he can outrun him. Mostly he carries a Glock 27, the .22LR is just for those 'can't carry' situations. |
GOOD WEAPON I bought my wife one along time ago and I carried a 649 with 38spl 158SCWHP +P |
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I don't think there is a LESS reliable platform than a pocket rimfire automatic. .22 is the most unrelaible factory ammo out there having at least a pinch out of every milk carton that require a second strike to ignite if it will at all. Moreover, NOBODY makes a quality, pocket .22 automatic. As far as I have ever seen you can pick 2: Quality, Pocket, .22 auto. Finally the slide is a bitch to manipulate on them, (Need I waste my time rehashing everybody else's opinion with the ballistics)? In my not so humble opinion there are two kinds of CCWers as a rule (with exceptions, albeit only a few): - You have people who care more about having the right equipment, even if it means breaking their wallet and ass to acquire and carry it. These are the people who spend a retarded amount of money on the weapon, leather, and perpherals. or - You have people who care more about how comfortable the carry is no matter how much it detracts from the effectiveness of the weapon. These are the people who have a total of 200 rounds logged on their CCW they've carried 5 years running (because the POS is not made to be shot, but carried) and they say stupid shit to justify their nomination to this year's Darwin's like, "better to have a .32 in the belt than a .45 in the safe" (overlooking the "duh, a .45 fits in the waistband too" factor). Few people seriously carry backups from either camp. If you are going to weigh yourself down however, then getting one that makes sense is in order. Ideally the backup will take the same caliber and loading device as the primary. Less ideally, the backup will at least be of the same caliber. A last ditch compromise is that the backup is chambered for a generally accepted "minimally adequate defense caliber" from .38spl on up. Everything else is just junk weighing you down. If you can't carry a scandium J-frame as a backup for example, then the odds are you are not dressed/prepared to accommodate a backup in the first place. Spare mags are made for when your weapon is unloaded or it goes down. They are more favorable on a quality primary than a BUG IMO. A backup is more useful as a weapon to hand a friendly party you trust than it is a supplement for a primary that goes down. Either way, whether used as a supplement or as a weapon to arm a friendly, it's only useful if it stands a reasonable chance of stopping a threat. |
I have to point out that the data you give is not an apples to apples comparison. You make the statement that barrel length is important, then compare a 4" 9mm with sub 2" revolvers. Further, it is my understanding that the 38 and 357 ammo you quote from Speer is ammunition that was designed as reduced velocity loads, not full power loads as the 9mm round is that you use as a comparison. I agree with you that the P3AT is smaller than a j-frame. I also agree with you that a 9mm from a 4" barrel has more power than a reduced velocity 357 from a 2" gun. I also think it is obvious that the 38 and 357 is more powerful than a 380 however. For this post, I think your comparison should be ammo from a j-frame snubby vs the P3AT, not a 4" 9mm. Personally, I have a P3AT and several j-frames. They both have their place, but were I to choose the one that I trust more, it would easily be a j-frame. A 22 is probably better than a sharp stick...but not by much. |
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+1 for the J-frame. And also , it's true that .357 is not efficient in the short barrel. Not enough velocity for expansion. I have a kel-tec in .32. CRAP. And you can't fire it from inside the pocket. And it's finicky and an anemic round anyway. I have not tried any other Kel-tecs but don't care. Little autos have proven to be unreliable and untrustworthy IMO. Plus , if you find yourself in a retention / hand to hand distance scenario you described you can beat someone into a pulp with a revolver. Try that witha plastic pocket auto. I'd be thinking trusty J-Frame AND a KNIFE. Just my .02. JC |
| As mentioned, pocket autos in .22 tend to be very UNreliable...that is why JMB designed the .25 auto, in fact. Maybe as a third gun but never as my main backup...for that I want at least a .380 (whick I do not trust much) or, better, a .38Spl or 9mm. And the snub .357's DO have more thrusts per squeeze than many small 9mms...many getting 1200fps or so from the 125gr magnum round, but at a helluva price with recoil and blast. |
Thanks for your reply. I wasn't really comparing the 1 7/8" .357 to a 4" 9mm, but rather pointing out that a snubby .357 doesn't possess the power that ".357 Magnum" would imply. Ask 10 people what is more powerful, a .357 Magnum or a 9mm and we all know what the answer will be. I hear plenty of people knock the "stopping power" of the 9mm but no one ever questions the potency of .357mag even out of such a short barrel. Personally, I know that I was somewhat awed by ".357 Magnum" when I bought my 340PD since I only owned 9mm pistols before that. I was surprised when I looked up the specs on Speer's website only to find that both the 9mm pistols I own (G19, 92FS) were "more powerful" than the 340. Now figure that .38+P gives up over 100 FPS and it's approaching the "power" of the "sub-calibers". So, what's my point? I'm not really sure... 
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If you want the smallest possible pocket gun in a reliable centerfire cartridge, the P3AT is your answer. Yes, the stopping power isn't as good as a 9mm, but it's a hell of a lot better than any .22, and it's no bigger (might be even smaller) than a Beretta TomCat. The .38/.357 snubbie is a big step in the right direction as far as reliability goes, but the size penalty is huge. The P3AT can disappear into any pocket, and you have to dress around a 642 or similar. They are a lot fatter in all dimensions (grip, cylinder, length, height) The two really are not comparable. I have both, and for pocket carry, unless it doesn't fit, the 642 gets the nod. But don't be under the misconception that the snubbie is in the same size class as a P3AT. It's not even close. |
Ah, I see. Personally, I do not feel that way. The 357 is a 9mm. If you take similar bullet designs in a 125 grain 357 and a 124 grain 9mm, I figure you'll come out with pretty similar results. At one time the 357 really had some velocity behind it, but as of late, it seems to have been watered down. |
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Some years ago, AMT made three pistols specifically named "Backup". The first was a single action auto in .380. I snapped up the first one I saw, and still use it today. Latter they mde a DAO in .380, and finally a .45 acp DAO. This is my usual backup piece. http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/Jeepnik/M%20O%20Pictures/AMTBackup-1.jpg |