Posted: 4/28/2004 2:28:09 PM EDT
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Ok In my opinion Baretta's officialy suck as defencive handguns. I am takeing an advanced shooting class. We are required to use our duty handguns. 7 of us are from the jail so we are having to use Baretta 92D's. The first day I disassembled the one issued to me the sear fell out. According to the armorer it could not be fixed part of the frame was broken. Yesterday, not mine but two of the others the locking block broke. Today, the NIB one that was issued to me for the class (replacement for the first one that broke on me), after about 250 rounds through the gun, I jacked up thing happend. I pulled the trigger their was a strange sound that litteraly scared the crap out of me and the entire slide, barrel encluded flew down range. It did not explode, but about 15 feet away from the barrel I found a 9mm round that was still smoking hot on the ground I believe it was the round from the gun. Another strange thing, when I retreved the barrel the brass was still in the chamber. When I picked it up the brass just fell out it was not cracked or dammaged It showed no sign of over pressure, and the barrel/chamber was undammaged. I dont know what the hell happend but I am not buying a Baretta. Even though I have to use one for the next two days. Have any of you had a bad experence with Baretta's |
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I have use Beretta's on and off duty. I'm a solid Beretta fan. When I was Correction Officer I used a 92F in a department wide qualifications, coming in 2nd to the Firearms instructor and ahead of the SWAT guys who uesd Glock 22's. In over 10,000 rounds through Beretta's, 92F, 92G, 92D and a Cougar 8045 I have never had a failure like you had. It seems to me that the ones that you are using as over-used and not properly taken care of. It's sounds like the armorer in charge of maintaning the guns fail in his job. I have and will always depend on my Beretta's....they have yet to fail me... |
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Ha! Having had the mis-fortune to having had a Llama a long time ago...I'll stick the Beretta. Granted I'm not in combat, living in the desert, but nothing is Marine proof...not even a anvil.... All I know that I have shot, over a period of a weekend, 1,000 rounds in a 92F and never had a failure. I have had Beretta's that I know had over 8,000 rounds ran through one. Never a down time due to repair or a failure that was catastrophic. Anyway, to each's it's own.......I hope you find something that you will trust |
Source for this bit of info? If true, I'd say it was due to caliber rather than performance. I badmouthed Beretta for years until I bought a used 92FS. I quickly fell in love with its balance & accuracy. |
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This thread is worthless without pics.... Was the disassembling latch in the down position? I have put 9500rds through my Beretta 92FS and never had so much as a hiccup from it. Functions perfectly ever time I use it. I put 2000rds through it in one day and not one problem. It is possible you could have gotten a lemon they do happen, but rarely. Over used 92's will have problems if they are not maintained well as with any gun. This is the military's problem with the M9. Harsh abuse and poor maintenance equals undependable gun. I would trust my Beretta in a gun fight. |
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Here is your PROOF that the Berretta M9 is a POS. I am quoting this information from the "guns and ammo" Surefire Presents Combat tactics. Page 78 "The double-action trigger proved to be a nemesis. It's difficult for standard a soldier to fire accurately with a crunchy, long, stiff trigger. When you go to a secondary arm like a pistol, it's crucial to make a first round hit. Specialized units that get better training do not have this difficulty, but you have to remember one thing when your adrenelin gets going-soldiers like a nice 3lb. trigger." "You can have that in a 1911. The government model pistol is used by the best of the best, like MAR-SOC and SOTF. This pistol is easy to maintain, parts are readily available, and armorers are already trained everywhere." Quoted by Travis Mitchell ""GET SOME" A special report on the guns and gear that U.S. Forces used to "get some"." |
There's more to being a "choice" combat pistol than just a 3-lb. trigger pull. It sounds pretty obvious that the author of that article is already biased agianst the Beretta and in favor of 1911s. Besides, your article quote didn't mention anything of a side-arm transition, just what our forces have used. In addition, there's a big difference between being special-issue and standard-issue. In the case of special-issue, they (Kimber) would fall along the same lines as Sig, HK, and S&W special-issue side-arms. Now, I'm not a big fan of Berettas, but they're not exactly junk. And what I do know for ceratin is that the 1911 has got to be the most problematic auto that I have ever laid my hands on, a lot of which is simply due to lousy manufacturing practices and cheap(er) materials. My experiences are based on Colts, SAs, and Kimbers, with the SAs being the worst of the of the bunch. And as for several Berettas going down in the same range session, I call bullshit...almost laughable. 
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Please understand that this isn't meant to offend you but exactly what type of officer are you? I find it very hard to believe anything you say simply because of your spelling errors and not to mention your overall grammar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an english major and I understand that everyone makes mistakes but I hold officers of the law (and maybe this is just me) at a much higher standard of competence than this. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. I'm going to have to raise the B.S. flag on this one. Sorry! |
Actually...its because they prefer .45 Alot of people bash the beretta...for being a 9mm. Their biggest complaint is about the round, not the gun... |
How does that make the beretta a POS? Just because someone has a bias against DA means the gun is a POS? Ok...that makes sense. Just to make this a bit more understandable... lets try it this way: "1911's are POS's because the hammer has to be back for the thing to work" Thats about as valid as what you posted. |
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Not like it needs to be said again, but silenthunter, the BS flag has been raised. The only way the slide could come off is if someone was STUPID enough to flick the disassembly latch. Locking blocks break...nobody will deny that. Thats why they tell you to replace it after x amount of rounds. I think your armorer fell asleep during his training, was drunk, smoking crack, or is just plain mentally retarded, that is of course, assuming this is true. |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Here is your PROOF that the Berretta M9 is a POS. I am quoting this information from the "guns and ammo" Surefire Presents Combat tactics. Page 78 "The double-action trigger proved to be a nemesis. It's difficult for standard a soldier to fire accurately with a crunchy, long, stiff trigger. When you go to a secondary arm like a pistol, it's crucial to make a first round hit. Specialized units that get better training do not have this difficulty, but you have to remember one thing when your adrenelin gets going-soldiers like a nice 3lb. trigger." "You can have that in a 1911. The government model pistol is used by the best of the best, like MAR-SOC and SOTF. This pistol is easy to maintain, parts are readily available, and armorers are already trained everywhere." Quoted by Travis Mitchell ""GET SOME" A special report on the guns and gear that U.S. Forces used to "get some"." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How does that make the beretta a POS? Just because someone has a bias against DA means the gun is a POS? Ok...that makes sense. Just to make this a bit more understandable... lets try it this way: "1911's are POS's because the hammer has to be back for the thing to work" Thats about as valid as what you posted. To answer your question: The reason I cited this material was that the person who made this post said the Beretta 92 was a terrible DEFENSIVE handgun. Nothing that I POSTED said the entire gun was a POS, I am truly sorry that you misunderstood my post. I WAS STATING THAT THE BERETTA 92 is a POS as a DEFENSIVE TYPE PISTOL...THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL COMMENT MADE ABOUT THE PISTOL. THAT MY FRIEND EXPLAINS THE RELAVENCE OF MY POST. |
Of course stopping power plays a roll in a side arm. In combat the last thing i want to do is empty an entire mag and do a tac reload b/c of ONE person. In my OPINION Beretta's are not good guns. I was never comfortable having one at my side or strapped to my chest. To each their own. 
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 Either you have the most statistically improbable batch of Beretta handguns, or you are telling tales. Locking blocks on Berettas do break. But usually around 30 + THOUSAND rounds. Most people will never fire a weapon that many times in their entire lives of owning it. Frames on Beretta pistols don't often break. Wanna guess why? Here's a hint: The locking block. The locking block bears all the stress of the weapon's function, NOT the frame. Thus the frame does not often experience significant stress, meaning it holds together just fine. Sort of the same deal you see with the AR series of weapons. The upper and lower are anodized aluminum, and bear little stress from firing the gun. The barrel and bolt absorb all of the stress. If your slide assembly flew downrange, it is because some idiot left the assembly latch down, or the assembly latch broke. I have only seen this phenomenon once in my existence, and that was on a Colt Gold Cup that broke it's slide lock pin, and it worked out, eventually falling out under recoil and the top part of the weapon then went forward off of the weapon. But this was a rare occourance... Was your latch broken or just in the wrong position. You most certainly didn't find the round laying 15 feet downrange unless it was a squib round, and from your description it is impossible for a squib round to have enough force to operate the action of the weapon enough to "launch" the slide downrange. I would suggest that you DON'T buy a Beretta. They are too nice a pistol for YOU to own. Methinks you have heard a bunch of gunstore gossip (translation: HORSE SH*T) about the Beretta, and decided to post all the nonsense you "knew" about them in one post. The only problem is that this board is full of people who have REAL experience with the 92 platform, and have heard all the BS stories before. For ACCURATE information on the 92/M9's history and ACCURATE information on the 92 platform's shortcomings, read: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm |
I call Bullshit A Beretta 92D never has and never will have a 'sear'. A sear isn't required on a DAO gun because there isn't a SA notch on the hammer. Don't believe me ask Ernest Langdon. www.langdontactical.com Oh and BTW Ernest has won IDPA at the Nat'ls in Custom Defense Pistol using a DA/SA SIG P220 against guys such as Rob Leatham who uses a 1911. |
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I'm just wondering, if the beretta is a horrible defensive handgun, then what about the sig? Must be, its double action. Their logic behind it being a horrible defensive gun is because of double action? There are alot of DA guns out there, so does that mean they all suck for defensive purposes? Now, I admit, I too wouldn't mind having SA, or cocked and locked of any sort for defensive purposes. But I wouldn't go so far to label all DA guns POS's in terms of defense. I'm just trying to understand. Because I still don't see how a DA trigger makes it a crappy defense handgun. Yes, I understand it would be nice if it could be carried like an HK USP (pretty much any way you want to), but for most LEO, carrying anything with a hammer back is a no-no (this wasnt really brought up, just a fact I'm stating). For military, I can understand. But the Marine buddies I have that aren't gun owners absolutely LOVE coming shooting with me, because I have a 92fs which they ALL love, and 3 of them have used in combat. I understand there are negative reports about the M9. 99.5% of the "failures" I have heard about would all be fixed with a few replacement springs. Not the M9's fault, the armorers fault. Just because the thing is a military pistol doesnt mean its going to be a supergun. All pistols would perform the same as the M9 if they were treated the same way the military treats their M9's. One of my Marine buddies is leaving for Iraq in August. We compiled a list of things he is going to take with him, that I am helping him get. Aimpoint M2 w ARMs mount/spacer, a bunch of batteries, and a wolff extra power recoil spring, a pack of magazine springs, and a few other random springs. In the list is an wolff XP recoil spring for his A4, just in case. Few extra extractors with wolff extractor springs and the colt M4 inserts. Probably be adding a surefire to the list shortly. If you look at the list...these are all things he shouldn't have to bring, because the military should be providing them. But they dont. Guess what he'd be taking if they used SIG's? Spare sig springs. Almighty Glock? Yup, springs for that too, even though they may not be necessary. He has 100% confidence in the gun, but he knows the military is rough on the stuff. This isn't an attack on anyone here, so please don't take it as such. I just find it hard to believe anything can be called a POS because it has a very common trigger. Someone simply has a bias towards SA triggers (who wrote the article). And that is fine. I just think labeling it as a POS defensive handgun is a bit harsh. Its really not that hard to learn how to shoot it... I've had my personal Beretta go through 1500+ without a cleaning. Dropped in gritty mudd twice, rained on, and never lubed throughout the entire thing. I understand this may not be a valid comparison to an M9 though, because mine has be maintained the way it was supposed to be from day one, and gets a fresh set of springs every 5k rounds. That "technique" has made it to this date, 100% reliable. The M9 the military has and the 92fs you buy over the counter are 2 totally different animals. If you ever get the chance to compare the two side by side, you'll see the difference. |
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DA handguns have their place. Personally I shoot a traditional DA handgun FAR better than I do a Single action gun. Why? Beats the hell out of me, but I do. After much practice with the SA 45, I am much better now, but I still shoot a DA gun a tad better. DA guns are certainly not "useless". They are quite effective. The whole DA/SA transition thing is VASTLY overrated, as anyone who spends some practice time with the system can learn to shoot it very well. Odds are that someone who can't shoot DA/SA transitions is not controlling the trigger properly in the first place. I personally regard DAO auto pistols as utterly useless, but my latest class had a guy shooting a DAO Smith auto very well, even beating me in a couple of instances. What matters more than the trigger pull is the person behind the trigger. Anyone can learn to use any trigger if they put the time and effort into doing so. This means that the idea of a DA trigger being a liability is pure HORSE SH*T. Sure a nice crisp single action trigger is superb and easy to shoot for most people, but the DA trigger can be used JUST AS ACCURATELY, though possibly with more training time needed. |
| Just finished the class. I also found out that the barettas we wher using where 10 years old and have had the absolute crap shot out of them, he clames they have had 150, 000+ rounds. So at that many rounds I would expect them to break they are also replaceing all their firearms this year. The NIB Baretta that went nuts on me I found out from the armor that the, I am not sure what it is called but the lever that locks the slide on the fraim failed or was not engagued all the way. The part was dammaged I do not know if he fixed it or gave me a different gun. So This failure could have been my fault. I have completed the calss with a Baretta. After speaking with the schools armor My faith in the Baretta as a quality firearm has been returned. I might just buy one but not a 92D the trigger sucks. I am not to knowledgable about Barettas (Glock is my gun) but what is the locking block, is that part of the fraim or is it the thing attached to the barrel? The thing that broke on the other guns was the part that is attached to the barrel. The schools armor showed me how to replace that and said that it is the most common part to break. The thing that I neglectid is all firearms have the potential to be a name brand peace of junk that is why you should send several hundred rounds down range befor you trust your life to them. The other thing is that fact that the other guns had so many rounds through them. |
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00_buckshot, just to let you know I am a dislexic sorry for the spelling errors. Right know I work in a jail and I plan to go to the Law Enforcement side as soon as I can. I generaly use spell check but Their is not one on this sight that I know of. Crap, I just realized I can copy and paste from my word processor. Sorry for the spelling errors. 
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gotm4 Ok I have another question to clarify something. When you break down a Baretta there is 2 things that look like extractors to me the stick over the magazine well. They appear to be extractors the smaller of the 2 fell off I was mistaken This is what the guys at the range said it was. So I was miss informed. Can you tell me what this part is. |
The one on the left is the ejector and the one on the right is the firing pin safety lever (I can't remember what BerettaUSA calls it) but as you press the trigger it is what moves up unlocking the firing pin so it'll move forward when the hammer hits the firing pin. The extractor is pinned into the slide and is what pulls the casings out of the chamber as the slide moves rearward. |
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I have two 92fs and have fired thousands of rounds with out so much as a failure to feed or failure to fire, in fact zero failures at all. They have both been 100% right out of the box, accuaracy has been acceptable too. I only wish my Kimber and Colt were as reliable. 
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| For as much as I hate the beretta 92fs I couldn't stop myself from buying one today. I bought the stainless version, beretta 92fs inox for 525 out the door brand new with two mags, I couldnt resist. Call it a love hate relationship with the weapon, I have heard so much negativity but it just looks awesome. |
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I've had a 92fs for a year now, it's a great shooting pistol, but I don't like the slide safety, and the grip is a little too big for my hand. As far as a beretta being good for self-defense, I'd say that any $400+ pistol(except the entry level 1911's) is going to be reliable enough for self defense, it's just what your preference is. |
Hang up your holsters dude... sounds like someone up there is trying to tell you something. Devine intervention up to this point... don't push your luck. I've used M9's for a long time and have never had a single problem with them. I have considered buying one on several occasions, but in keeping with my Homer Simpson like attention span.... ooo, look... that dog has a fuzzy tail. I like the M9 but I have heard Beretta has a lot of QC issues and .mil gets the ones of highest quality, followed by LEO, meaning .civ models are junk.... according to what I have heard. Can't speak from experience or first hand knowledge there. My only experience has been favorable. |
| As far as the M9 and the 92FS being different and being able to tell holding them side by side, my own 92 and my M9 are absolutely identical except for the markings. I was on my regiments pistol team for a few years and fired over 20,000 rounds in that period from the same weapon. I never once had a SINGLE malfuntion with a clean weapon. I have fired as many rounds or more through my 92G with the same results. I also coached on a pistol range where hundreds of different M9s came through daily and my experience has been that a clean M9 always goes bang, slides stat on the weapon and the AVERAGE police officer, soldier, Marine or sailor can employ it easily with a minimum if training. Comparing a general issue weapon like the M9 to whatever the special units use is an unfair comparison. There are several reasons why a special unit or swat team may what something different. I personally suspect that most of the time it's to gobble up their budgets to ensure funds keep flowing for next year. |
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I had a feeling there was more to the story...old, ill maintained and worn out would make most any handgun put on a bad showing. Guns, unlike cars, have no odometer...at 200,000 miles, I would expect some components to go bad. Also, now that the facts are in, IMO, I consider the Beretta 92 vindicated. |
Dude, chill. Read the icon. OTOH, if you have no sense of humor in here you'll be toast VERY quickly. And I'll spare you what Gordon Liddy says about jail guards. |
I once went through a 2 MONTH long OFFENSIVE CQB course at FT Bragg. I used issued M4s and M9s. Every morning we did a 25m 10 round warm up with no time limit for accuracy. I did my best shooting firing with the Beretta in DA then SA! All guns have parts that wear out . I've seen issued M1911 frames crack. The Beretta has never malfunction on me since 1987. There have been magazine problems in the deserts but not from the weapon. Never had a problem with my personal 92FS either. As far as special units don't use the M9 here's a tibet, The largest SOF unit (Army SF) and Rangers still issues the M9 as standard. added: I also believe the standard sidearm for the USMC is still the M9. Their Special Operations Capable units do have the M1911s. |
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I’ve had nothing but good experiences with Beretta. But I’ve also had plenty of bad experiences with other firearms that many members here swear up and down are great (and who take angry exception to anyone suggesting otherwise). I have no doubt that most handgun manufacturers have, upon occasion, put out a bad handgun. However, I definitely feel your experiences with Berettas was atypical. Anyway, thanks for the post. |