Posted: 7/27/2025 9:50:54 PM EDT
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So much emotion, Even to the point of posting the Airman’s picture in an attempt to provoke an emotional response. That is just Disgraceful. I am retiring from the Army after 34 years of service, 14 years as a competitor and smalls arms trainer, and 8 years experience with the P320/M17. I have been involved in training thousands of Soldiers and have personally trained several hundred on the M17 platform over the years and witnessed it take all kinds of abuse. I have seen parts break, I have seen rear sights come off, and I have seen my fair share of Negligent discharges by Privates, Sergeants, and even a 2 Star General. I have seen all the videos, heard all the stories, and read more than my fair share of completely biased and ignorant posts on both sides. Is there an issue? I am not convinced yet. It is tragic that a U.S. Airmen lost his life, hell it’s tragic when anyone is injured from a firearms related incident. But the loss or injuries sustained does not prove a mechanical defect. Some of the most respected Professional Gunsmiths in the industry are right now tearing this thing apart and trying to find out if there is an actual mechanical defect in the P320 mechanism and if so would try to work with Sig to fix the problem. But thats not good enough for the Living room commandos and 50 round a month “competitive shooters” on these boards. Fact is, there is a group of people on this board and many others who really don’t care if there is an actual problem, they just want to up their post counts by calling people “Sig Shills” or “Fanboys”, and that’s fine. Live on the boards all you want, trust rumors and made up stories by people trying to cover down on their careers because of making a mistake, or having a momentary lapse of attention. I will trust my experiences and wait for the professionals to complete their studies and exhaust every possible scenario to determine an actual cause. I will also wait for the AF to complete their investigation on the Airmen’s death. After that I will decide the fate of my M17s and M18s moving forward. Fact is, I don’t care either way. Yes, I really enjoy shooting the M17, it is absolutely one of my favorite guns, but if there is a mechanical issue I want it discovered so a it can be remedied. Thank you @Bruce Gray and @Sig Guy for your efforts. Grayguns Cp |
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Quoted: So much emotion, Even to the point of posting the Airman’s picture in an attempt to provoke an emotional response. That is just Disgraceful. I am retiring from the Army after 34 years of service, 14 years as a competitor and smalls arms trainer, and 8 years experience with the P320/M17. I have been involved in training thousands of Soldiers and have personally trained several hundred on the M17 platform over the years and witnessed it take all kinds of abuse. I have seen parts break, I have seen rear sights come off, and I have seen my fair share of Negligent discharges by Privates, Sergeants, and even a 2 Star General. I have seen all the videos, heard all the stories, and read more than my fair share of completely biased and ignorant posts on both sides. Is there an issue? I am not convinced yet. It is tragic that a U.S. Airmen lost his life, hell it’s tragic when anyone is injured from a firearms related incident. But the loss or injuries sustained does not prove a mechanical defect. Some of the most respected Professional Gunsmiths in the industry are right now tearing this thing apart and trying to find out if there is an actual mechanical defect in the P320 mechanism and if so would try to work with Sig to fix the problem. But thats not good enough for the Living room commandos and 50 round a month “competitive shooters” on these boards. Fact is, there is a group of people on this board and many others who really don’t care if there is an actual problem, they just want to up their post counts by calling people “Sig Shills” or “Fanboys”, and that’s fine. Live on the boards all you want, trust rumors and made up stories by people trying to cover down on their careers because of making a mistake, or having a momentary lapse of attention. I will trust my experiences and wait for the professionals to complete their studies and exhaust every possible scenario to determine an actual cause. I will also wait for the AF to complete their investigation on the Airmen’s death. After that I will decide the fate of my M17s and M18s moving forward. Fact is, I don’t care either way. Yes, I really enjoy shooting the M17, it is absolutely one of my favorite guns, but if there is a mechanical issue I want it discovered so a it can be remedied. Thank you @Bruce Gray and @Sig Guy for your efforts. Grayguns Cp Bruce Gray is not to be praised. He completely discredited himself on anything P320 related when he emphatically said the gun was drop safe, which it wasn't. Whatever your feelings are on the current situation, don't defer to him an ounce of authority on the subject. He has proven himself to be a liar at worst or a clueless charlatan at best. |
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Unnecessarily detailed resume? (Actually more like a humble brag and a clear attempt to make it known that no one could possibly no more about the matter at hand than yourself.) Check. Ad hominem comments about anyone finding fault or raising concern over the 320/variants? Check. Posting a picture of a fallen Airmen killed by a holstered M17 is disgraceful? Your post is clearly the one based on an emotional response...you sound dramatically overinvested in the platform and your citation of Bruce Gray/Grayguns isn't helping you make your point. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias on FULL display. I predict this will not age well, but enjoy your echo chamber, it must be deafening. |
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Bruce is one of the most knowledgeable smiths, especially with SIGs. However, he did flub on the first P320 issue. While it’s true the original P320 passed all existing drop tests, it’s also true that there was an issue that was repeatable both with each pistol that experienced the failure and across most (or possibly all) examples. He should’ve known better and recreated the conditions others had before making his claims, instead of what appeared to be splitting technicalities. On one hand, he spoke too soon before. On the other, one would think he learned a lesson from that, which would mean he’s really sure this time. Ultimately, too few shooters have a basic understanding of how firearms actually work and just contribute to witch hunts. Some because they are sheep and latch onto the latest trend. Some because they seek validation in their own choices of purchases and feel jaded their favorite wasn’t picked for military use. Some because they clearly think pistols work by magic. Some just aren’t willing to evaluate things critically. Some still don’t understand the latest issues are not the same as the original. Some just love the opportunity to make tired “knee-slapper” comments that were never clever and will never be, but to them are funnier than Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, and Redd Foxx put together. Some just want to watch the world burn. Could there be an issue? Maybe. But this didn’t just crop up a month ago. People have a a couple years to come up with a way to reliably repeat the failures to demonstrate either mechanical or design failures and no one has been able to. There have been several “gotcha” videos but none have yet demonstrated actually recreating the situation. They may show, “if you do this one crazy thing and 3 other failures happen to be present at the exact same time then hypothetically a discharge could happen”. And all too many just figure “there’s video proof! Where there’s smoke there’s fire!” And aren’t willing or capable of intellectual evaluation of what they’re really being shown. If there is an issue, I certainly think it needs to be made known and properly resolved. Until then, I’m fairly certain that these are all end-user errors. And because it’s been highly publicized, when someone does something dumb, it’s very easy to deflect responsibility and people will accept “oh he got one of the bad ones” instead of realizing they’re irresponsible firearm handlers. |
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Dude. It’s just a gun. I was involved in fielding them, too, and was unimpressed. I trained a few Soldiers on them. At best, it just does what other guns do. Whenever the sights aren’t falling off and it’s not having stoppages. At worst, we get pictures of deceased Airmen. There is no redeeming quality. |
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Right. Like I need to pad my post count. Or maybe, there is an actual issue, some of us are trying to raise the alarm, and if enough folks had been paying attention, we wouldn't be mourning a dead airman. You had already posted most of this screed in GD, and then retracted it - I had hoped you listened to your second thoughts. |
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Lmaoooo. Sig fanboys continue to reach mental gymnastics no one thought was possible. You still don’t think there’s a problem? Does someone else need to die? The dozens who have already been shot (and fortunately haven’t died) over the last several years from P320 ND’s aren’t enough for you? Since 2016 there has been OVER 80 DOCUMENTED injuries from P320 ND’s. Thats just injuries, not ND’s that didn’t result in an injury. Taking Bruce Gray’s side? Lmaoooo, his company would go under immediately if not for Sig. of course he’s falling on the Sig’s sword. Get a damn grip, pull your head from your ass, and come back to reality. These guns have REAL problems. Period. Keep being an idiot and pretending the guns are fine though. |