[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carry capacity (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/30/2011 4:10:35 AM EDT
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Hello All
I've been carrying and shooting guns for a long time, my preference for carry is 1911's and sig P220's. Now they carry with an 8 rd mag and one in shoot for 9 rds. What my question is, I keep running into shooters at different ranges and just about everyone is hell bent on needing a 15 to 20 rd mag in their Carry guns. So whats the big deal, why isn't 9 rds enough anymore? I mean you can carry extra mags if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. I carry an extra mag quite often. Am I just old and out of date like my 1911 style choice of carry weapon is? (Or so I've been told) 
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I don't know what "enough" rounds is because I don't know what will come. That's not something I get to decide, which is the whole reason for carrying a weapon in the first place.
I have no qualms with your preference.... but 13-17 rounds is not a bad thing. And you should ALWAYS carry at least one spare mag. |
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Hello All I've been carrying and shooting guns for a long time, my preference for carry is 1911's and sig P220's. Now they carry with an 8 rd mag and one in shoot for 9 rds. What my question is, I keep running into shooters at different ranges and just about everyone is hell bent on needing a 15 to 20 rd mag in their Carry guns. So whats the big deal, why isn't 9 rds enough anymore? I mean you can carry extra mags if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. I carry an extra mag quite often. Am I just old and out of date like my 1911 style choice of carry weapon is? (Or so I've been told) For CCW I would feel just fine with 6rd K frame and a few spare reloads |
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Much of the violence is carried out by gangs and groups of people or mall shootings with rifles.
Once the shooting starts, it stops when one side wins and the other side has either fled or is down. While there still are lone actors out there, I am not willing to bet my life that once it starts, 8,or 9, or 10 rounds will be enough to stop all the threats, especially if I am outnumbered and or out gunned. I summer carry is a min of 3 mags and 30 rounds of .40, my winter carry is usually 4 mags and 61 rounds of .40 It's an individual choice. I carry for protection, I don't want to commit my life to assuming 8,9 or 10 rounds and one mag are enough. Nobody ever walked away from a gunfight declaring they had way too much ammo. YMMV |
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My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion;
With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. Edit - the quote from Sergeant Miller - "The four thruths: Assaults happen closer, faster, more suddenly and with more power than most people believe." So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. |
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Everyone has their personal preference and their comfort level. If I were to carry a 1911, a spare magazine would no be optional, it would be mandatory and quite honestly, it would probably be two spares.
I don’t care what caliber it is, handguns are poor man-stoppers as a whole. I don’t know how an attacker will react to the hits I make, I don’t know how many hits it will take and I don’t know how many attackers there will be. Thus, I want more ammo. I feel very undergunned carrying a J-frame and a reload. 10+1 is my preferred minimum but I vary from that when I carry a J-frame when circumstances require it. If I ever have to use my handgun to save my life or the life of my family I guarantee I won’t say “I wish I didn’t still have all this ammo left in my gun.” Like we’ve discussed on here before, Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis has had 56 students use their handgun in self-defense. The average came in right around the standard 3.5 shots fired. Well to get that average, a few people shot 1 round and a few people shot 11. On average, I will never have to use my gun, so if I do, there goes the law of averages. I was fortunate enough to have dinner with Tom and some classmates during a class I took back in July. While on the topics of carry guns Tom said he switched from the 1911 to the Glock 35 a while back because “The 1911 is kind of a two bad guy gun, the Glock 35 is kind of a 3 bad guy gun.” Talking strictly capacity. Tom is a VERY gifted shooter and if I had to put my money on someone to make hits under stress, Tom would be high on the list. I think he is a realist about the situation. Again, the reality is that we don’t know those important factors of how many attackers there will be, how they will react to my shots or how many times I will have to shoot them. If I knew with absolute certainty it was 5 rounds, I’d carry that, but I don’t. |
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My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion; With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? |
| Mach, Tommy and all4 all have some very good info in there posts. As mentioned before, shot placement is truely what is key and in a situation where a group/gang may be coming after me, I want as much ammo as possible. I have 52 rounds of 9mm on me when I carry. |
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My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion; With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? No offense, but your son must be a pretty slow shooter or you are Chris Costa. Also remember that a reload under fire isn't going to occur as fast as it did in perfect conditions AND it is just another component that can go wrong (lose mag, shot in weak side hand, etc.). |
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Quoted: My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion; With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. Was going to post my thoughts and finding from 16+ yrs as LEO/firearm instructor/avid gun-guy/blah/blah/blah...but you nailed it. So....+1. |
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Carrying a small capacity weapon with a small amount of reloads is complacent. One reason why I am not a block fan (and I may get bashed for this), is I like a safety on my weapon. Im in the Army, and have been around guns for my entire life and have owned them since I was 9 years old. I still will never believe that I am so good at handling a weapon that I can overcome the instinctual and natural error that humans are infected with, called accidents. If I did, it would be arrogant. Complacency Kills. Have a safety, it will safe a toe, a thigh, or even a life. If you really like to train with your gun and think you can pull your no safety handgun without a safety, practice taking the safety off when you pull the gun, guarantee I can pull mine out and have the safety off as fast as you can get yours out.
That also applies to ammo capacity: don't just think you are so good that a few rounds will do the trick. A big 1911 will stop someone, but no one looks at a 1911 and calculates the ballistics, compares the round size to their gun, and then decides to act. If the other guy has a .32 cap and he sees your .45, he doesn't give a care, its a shootout. My backup .22 magnum will do more damage than your .45acp if the .45 misses and my .22mag doesn't. Carry a backup. Carry a high capacity. Carry extra ammo. Two extra mags, or even three, in a glasses case or in a multitool pouch and they are inconspicuous. Here is my theory; if you are in a bad part of town and for some reason you use half your mag, you need to be able to have a full reload so you can get out. Its like a military operation. You need the supplies to get IN and OUT. Retreating or Breaking Contact does NOT guarantee an anti-climactic future. Count on being flanked, or some other asshole wanting a go –– especially if they just saw you use all your ammo and now you're an easy threat. What if you get mugged by a group? The most common amount of thugs to be approached by, statistically, empirically or otherwise is about 3-4 people. If its three, and you have your happy go lucky low cap revolver, you have 2 shots for each, no room for human error in case you miss, or in case he's a hefty fucker, took two shots, and still wants some more. I carry 40 rounds of 9mm Makarov in 3 mags, and a .22 magnum with a box of 50 in my car. If you talk about where I live, a couple months ago a police officer was executed at a stoplight by a full auto AK47 in the street by a biker who road up the the cruiser and fired relentlessly. If someone is putting suppressive fire, you need what we call in the army one of two things: Responsive Fire or Superior Firepower. If its a small arms fire, try and gain superior firepower, put rounds at him and make him take cover (This is for from-cover shootings, etc) so you can call for help, move, plan, break contact, whatever. Or, you have responsive firepower. If he shoots a burst at your location, and he knows your there, and you don't shoot back, he's likely to move in on you thinking you are helpless. If you can provide responsive fire, you can keep him subdued. If not, your screwed. I know a lot of this is not typical scenario, but if you are needing to use a gun, you already are smart enough to understand shit don't stay typical and sometimes you need a gun. I am thinking tactically. Where I live, go to school, work, etc. Gang Warfare is a reality. Illegals and thugs trying to carjack or mug you is not a fantasy, it is amongst me always. For me, I must stay cognizant, aware, and prepared. My backup .22 Magnum is SO small, I am more bothered by keys, wallet, phone, and my knife all before I even think about my .22 magnum being inconvenient. That is my opinion. If you are complacent enough to say "I don't need a backup, I don't need more ammo" you are complacent enough to say "I am just going here, I don't need a gun" and eventually you will stop carrying, or only carry a small gun. One day you will be fucked. As we say in the Army, don't let Private Snuffy get the best of you. Stay aware, cognizant, and prepared. It will save your life. |
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I don't look at capacity first, instead I look at ergonomics and size. Doesn't matter how many rounds it holds if I can't shoot it well, or it doesn't carry well.
For me, after trying out many different guns, I came back around to 1911's and Glocks. I love my 1911 it's just a Mil Spec Springer but it's been 100% flawless for years and a great carry piece. I carry it with the stock 7 round mag topped off so I have 8 rounds, always a spare on weak side and sometimes an extra in my pocket. I don't feel undergunned at all. I also have a Glock 19 that I find myself carrying more and more all the time. It fits so much of my criteria for a carry gun, feels good in the hand, not too big, not too small and carries very well. Plus, it holds 15+1 in it's stock configuration. For me, it's a great carry option. |
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I didn't say I did not carry a bug I do most of the time My bug is either a glock 26 or 27 and when I know I will be going to higher risk places
I will carry one spare mag for the bug and three spare mags for my primary. I'm no spring chicken and my son is a pretty darn good shooter he's got trophies to a test to that. Who know maybe he let me win he's a good kid. Trust me I'm not nieve when it comes to self defense. |
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I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You shot 17 rounds and did a reload in under a second? Really? That is some serious space shuttle door gunner BS. My guess is your boy is considering some hip waders. Gringop |
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I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You shot 17 rounds and did a reload in under a second? Really? That is some serious space shuttle door gunner BS. My guess is your boy is considering some hip waders. Gringop As a competitve shooter, I agree. Drawing from concealment and a single shot is around 1 sec IIRC, let alone reloading and firing 17 shots. I missed that tid-bit when I read the original post. |
| I think he meant that the difference in the time it took the 1911 to get out 8 rounds and the 17 rounds of glock was 1 second, meaning the loser was slower by a second. I would believe that, almost. The extrema2 shotgun can empty 11 rounds in under 2 seconds. Its a little crazy, but if you practice... |
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I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You shot 17 rounds and did a reload in under a second? Really? That is some serious space shuttle door gunner BS. My guess is your boy is considering some hip waders. Gringop I said when we shot I finished a head of him in a little less then a sec. Man If I could shoot 17 rds in less then sec I would not be on this thread I'd be out making the big bucks!
Hip waders O.K.!
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I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You shot 17 rounds and did a reload in under a second? Really? That is some serious space shuttle door gunner BS. My guess is your boy is considering some hip waders. Gringop I said when we shot I finished a head of him in a little less then a sec. Man If I could shoot 17 rds in less then sec I would not be on this thread I'd be out making the big bucks! Yeah, no kidding! |
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You know what I said isn't really a big deal to shoot faster then a glock. I had 9 rds in my 1911 and reloaded with a 8rd.
I've shot 100's of thousands of rds thru my life thats not a big deal. I just find it hard to understand why so many think instead of practicing and geting good at handling their gun they think because they carry one with high capacity that will protect them better. Me kickin my kids ass with my 1911 just proves that it is important to become efficient with their weapon of choice. I am maybe wrong but I have told my students down thru the yrs. if you get good and confident and the gun fels good it won't matter what you choose to carry! |
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The debate stems from everyone making judgements based on their own assesments. There is no "right" answer.
Some people envision trying to get away and use their firearms in defense of themselves only- others seem to have the mindset that theyd duke it out and sent alot of lead down range. There are people perfectly happy with a 5 shot revolver with no reloads and others who carry 30 or 40 rounds. I feel comfortable carrying anything between 5 and 18 rounds. The only real reason for the latter is that I enjoy the full size grip that I get with the "full size" mag in my compact. On average though, I carry 10+1 and I dont feel undergunned. The 1911 bug is biting hard and I wont feel undergunned with 8+1 either. My mentality is that you must reach a happy medium and that more rounds arent going to mean youll survive. You could be killed before you get a single shot off- much less 40 of them. |
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I have a police officer friend that was in an off-duty gun fight some years ago. His words to me where "When I put that second mag in the gun, it was the best feeling that I've ever had in my entire life; more than when my kids were born and when I was married to my wife - because I knew that I was going to make it out of there" and he did. That statement sort of had an effect on me, so I've always carried with additional rounds. Even when I carry my little LCP when I have no other way to carry, I have a spare mag.
Not to mention the training that I've taken that has reinforced the concept of carrying spare mags. What is the first step in clearing a malfunction? "Rip and Strip" - Buh Bye magazine, hope you have a spare... Things like that are frequent occurences in a gunfight when shooting limp wristed, one handed, etc. |
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The debate stems from everyone making judgements based on their own assesments. There is no "right" answer. Some people envision trying to get away and use their firearms in defense of themselves only- others seem to have the mindset that theyd duke it out and sent alot of lead down range. There are people perfectly happy with a 5 shot revolver with no reloads and others who carry 30 or 40 rounds. I feel comfortable carrying anything between 5 and 18 rounds. The only real reason for the latter is that I enjoy the full size grip that I get with the "full size" mag in my compact. On average though, I carry 10+1 and I dont feel undergunned. The 1911 bug is biting hard and I wont feel undergunned with 8+1 either. My mentality is that you must reach a happy medium and that more rounds arent going to mean youll survive. You could be killed before you get a single shot off- much less 40 of them. I need to warn you if you don't have any 1911's yet and the bug bites to hard it won't stop at one. it's an addiction! But a good one |
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I have a police officer friend that was in an off-duty gun fight some years ago. His words to me where "When I put that second mag in the gun, it was the best feeling that I've ever had in my entire life; more than when my kids were born and when I was married to my wife - because I knew that I was going to make it out of there" and he did. That statement sort of had an effect on me, so I've always carried with additional rounds. Even when I carry my little LCP when I have no other way to carry, I have a spare mag. Not to mention the training that I've taken that has reinforced the concept of carrying spare mags. What is the first step in clearing a malfunction? "Rip and Strip" - Buh Bye magazine, hope you have a spare... Things like that are frequent occurences in a gunfight when shooting limp wristed, one handed, etc. Having an extra mag or two or three or what ever and even a bug is a warm fuzzy feeling. What I think is Ideal is the primary and your bug should be capable of using the same mags. That way if one gun is disabled you can still use all existing mags and ammo. You know what I mean. |
| What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that people try to compensate Capacity with Caliber. Like I said, my .22magnum BUG will do worse to you than a .45 ACP is the .45 misses and the.22 magnum doesn't. Count on missing, and have an extra round for each miss. |
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My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion; With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You were standing upright with both hands free and uninjured, weren't you? Be careful with extrapolating from such circumstances. In the shooting involving an arfcom member that I mentioned, for instance, he was shot in the hands, and subsequently struggled to reload after the perp had fled. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that people try to compensate Capacity with Caliber. Like I said, my .22magnum BUG will do worse to you than a .45 ACP is the .45 misses and the.22 magnum doesn't. Count on missing, and have an extra round for each miss. This. Practice and skill are irrelevant when debating capacity. You can practice just as much with a hi capacity weapon as you can with a low capacity weapon. The bottom line is you don't know what is going to happen. The only think you can count on is that you will never be in a gunfight wishing you had a smaller mag. |
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What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that people try to compensate Capacity with Caliber. Like I said, my .22magnum BUG will do worse to you than a .45 ACP is the .45 misses and the.22 magnum doesn't. Count on missing, and have an extra round for each miss. I wasn't asking anything about cal size all guns and caliber can and will get the job done thats not an issue. And under stress missing will accure no matter what your shooting. Cal is just a preference. Thats where consistent practice comes in because when it starts to become a reflex and not a thought you have begun to master what you are trying to accomplish with your shooting. I taught the martial arts for thirty yrs or so and as soon as a student stopped analyzing and thinking to much he became twice the student. And at that point the stress level will also drop. I can say the same thing my 45 will do more then your 22 if you miss, the statement means nothing. I watched very very well trained men and ladies under stress miss more than they hit, Cal will make no difference. Every one has two different shooting abilities one when your relaxed shooting paper and the other when under a great deal of stress. The difference with out the proper method and amount of paper shooting you will not be as good as you can be under stress. |
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My take on the issue, laced with personal opinion; With modern defensive ammo, the effective difference between 9mm / .40 / .45 isn't significant. I always carry a spare mag, and I've practiced both tactical and emergency reloads in classes and on my own. But I perform complex motor skills under stress for a living, and have come to appreciate simplifying such as much as possible. One of our members here was involved in a gunfight a couple of years ago. He and the bad guy were both wounded, but the fight stopped when the bad guy (who was using a revolver) ran out of ammo and fled. Good guy had a 1911 and (iirc) had one or two rounds left in the weapon. If the bad guy had a high capacity weapon, the outcome may well have been much worse, even though the good guy had a spare mag. A lot of folk like to point out that most civilian shootings end with just a few shots. But there's a difference between shooting and gunfight, and I've never subscribed to the idea of gearing training for the easiest scenario. If I base my training and choose my gear with a potential active shooter scenario in mind (something that appears to be becoming more common, unfortunately), then stuff like the ATM holdup is covered. In Meditations on Violence, Rory Miller does a great job of showing how different actual violent encounters are in comparison to what most people expect. he notes that they occur much more suddenly and at much closer distance than most expect. (That's a bad paraphrase, I'll edit with the actual quote in a bit.) I'd rather not depend on the luxury of a chance to reload. So in short, I don't see a particular advantage in a j-frame or 1911 or a higher capacity weapon, and I do see a potential advantage in having a higher capacity weapon. That said, I wouldn't feel terribly under equipped with a 1911 and a couple spare mags. I simply believe I'm better equipped with a Glock 19 and a spare. I'm not trying to brag or bost or anything like that but my son has been shooting with me for about 12 yrs now and him and I did a little bet. He said that he could empty a glock 17 rd mag on target before I could unloaded two 8 rd 1911 mags. So my wife timed and watched guess what I won. The wife said it was a little less then a sec. but never the less we both had 17 rds and the old out dated 1911 took first place. Of course it was a trp that I shoot weekly. And I'm few 100000 rds ahead of my boy, and have trained and been trained for yrs. but that don't count. But it was fun. So any way a sig or 1911 can be reloaded pretty darn fast. BTW my grouping was better also. My boy is now considering a different weapon for carry when he gets his permit. Guess what that is? You were standing upright with both hands free and uninjured, weren't you? Be careful with extrapolating from such circumstances. In the shooting involving an arfcom member that I mentioned, for instance, he was shot in the hands, and subsequently struggled to reload after the perp had fled. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yes I was standing upright and under no stress and both hands in good shape gripping the gun and so was my son with the glock. Under stress in a self defense situation wether we are talking about using the glock or the 1911 you would react the way you will under stress. This was not a test for selfdefense it was a simple bet between my son and myself. He thought he could out shoot the old man because he had 17 rds with out reloading (high capacity) I simple proved that the capacity won't always be the answer to protecting yourself or family. maybe in a real selfdefense situation between the 1911 and the glock it might end up different. I just don't believe so. I am one of the old guys that still think the 1911 pistol is the best combat pistol made. BTW I also carry sigs and I can say I would not be able to kick his but with that, Why less practice with the sigs. BTW understress I would not shoot that fast or accurate no one would. however because of my training and longevity I think I would come pretty close. I know before my training when in the service under stress I was shakin in my boots but I was just a kid then. |
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You know what I said isn't really a big deal to shoot faster then a glock. I had 9 rds in my 1911 and reloaded with a 8rd. I've shot 100's of thousands of rds thru my life thats not a big deal. I just find it hard to understand why so many think instead of practicing and geting good at handling their gun they think because they carry one with high capacity that will protect them better. Me kickin my kids ass with my 1911 just proves that it is important to become efficient with their weapon of choice. I am maybe wrong but I have told my students down thru the yrs. if you get good and confident and the gun fels good it won't matter what you choose to carry! So what about two people of the same skill level with 8 rounds vs. 17 rounds? You're mixing variables here. As for the mentality of the person who thinks they are better because of the tool...this exists in many things, not just double stack pistols. Even exists in general firearm ownership. |
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Yes I was standing upright and under no stress and both hands in good shape gripping the gun and so was my son with the glock. Under stress in a self defense situation wether we are talking about using the glock or the 1911 you would react the way you will under stress. This was not a test for selfdefense it was a simple bet between my son and myself. He thought he could out shoot the old man because he had 17 rds with out reloading (high capacity) I simple proved that the capacity won't always be the answer to protecting yourself or family. maybe in a real selfdefense situation between the 1911 and the glock it might end up different. I just don't believe so. I am one of the old guys that still think the 1911 pistol is the best combat pistol made. BTW I also carry sigs and I can say I would not be able to kick his but with that, Why less practice with the sigs. BTW understress I would not shoot that fast or accurate no one would. however because of my training and longevity I think I would come pretty close. There is a reason that in IDPA, 1911's have their own class - because they're at a disadvantage to higher capacity guns, especially trying to perform reloads while moving and shooting when the guy with the <place high capacity gun MFG name here> is just blasting away. I don't believe in a game of 15 v. 17 rounds that it would affect you much in a gun fight but 9 v. 15 or 17, yes. From what I've read, experienced police officers and shooters seem to have around a 50-70% hit ratio. So with benefit of the doubt, at 70% - you now have 6 rounds and with 4 guys coming at you, I'd say the odds of you putting all of them down with one shot is slim, not to mention if your gun experienced a malfunction. I just simply am not a believer in low capacity adequate powered CCW pistols. That said I do carry a 1911 at times, it carries 14 rounds  ; but I have plans to buy a Wilson eventually and will carry that as well. I don't think the 1911 is inadequate at all, but if you asked me which gun I'd grab first, it would be my M&P 9. I don't want to turn this into a 1911 v. XXXXX debate, but I think all conditions equal, a higher round count would suit you better.
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Yes I was standing upright and under no stress and both hands in good shape gripping the gun and so was my son with the glock. Under stress in a self defense situation wether we are talking about using the glock or the 1911 you would react the way you will under stress. This was not a test for selfdefense it was a simple bet between my son and myself. He thought he could out shoot the old man because he had 17 rds with out reloading (high capacity) I simple proved that the capacity won't always be the answer to protecting yourself or family. maybe in a real selfdefense situation between the 1911 and the glock it might end up different. I just don't believe so. I am one of the old guys that still think the 1911 pistol is the best combat pistol made. BTW I also carry sigs and I can say I would not be able to kick his but with that, Why less practice with the sigs. BTW understress I would not shoot that fast or accurate no one would. however because of my training and longevity I think I would come pretty close. There is a reason that in IDPA, 1911's have their own class - because they're at a disadvantage to higher capacity guns, especially trying to perform reloads while moving and shooting when the guy with the <place high capacity gun MFG name here> is just blasting away. I don't believe in a game of 15 v. 17 rounds that it would affect you much in a gun fight but 9 v. 15 or 17, yes. From what I've read, experienced police officers and shooters seem to have around a 50-70% hit ratio. So with benefit of the doubt, at 70% - you now have 6 rounds and with 4 guys coming at you, I'd say the odds of you putting all of them down with one shot is slim, not to mention if your gun experienced a malfunction. I just simply am not a believer in low capacity adequate powered CCW pistols. That said I do carry a 1911 at times, it carries 14 rounds ; but I have plans to buy a Wilson eventually and will carry that as well. I don't think the 1911 is inadequate at all, but if you asked me which gun I'd grab first, it would be my M&P 9. I don't want to turn this into a 1911 v. XXXXX debate, but I think all conditions equal, a higher round count would suit you better.I just want to point out that shooter skill level is MUCH more important then equipment in IDPA. In my experience expert class shooters will have better times then sharpshooters regardless of the weapon. The one exception may be revolvers. That said I agree that capacity is a good thing and I carry a 9mm Browning Hi-Power. Now I don't top the magazine off so I carry 12+1 with one or two 13 round reloads. The reason is that if I need to unload the weapon I can just put the chambered round back in the magazine and not worry about a loose round. |
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I like where this thread is going it's interesting to get all the different opinions and such.
But I do think things are being a little over analyzed. I mean were not talking about going to war. And the odds of getting into a all out gun fight is pretty slim no really slim. And thats with one attacker and those odds will be even less when we start talking multiple attackers. I know cops in large cities that have never pulled there gun in self defense shooting in 40 yrs on the job. For me now and most civilian individuals we will never need your gun! Three yrs ago at the mall of america two dirt bags wanted to start something all I did was show them my weapon (1911) sitting on my hip and they chose to move on. My lucky day and theirs. Thats as clos as I have come in the last 45 yrs or so how about you? |
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I just want to point out that shooter skill level is MUCH more important then equipment in IDPA. In my experience expert class shooters will have better times then sharpshooters regardless of the weapon. The one exception may be revolvers. That said I agree that capacity is a good thing and I carry a 9mm Browning Hi-Power. Now I don't top the magazine off so I carry 12+1 with one or two 13 round reloads. The reason is that if I need to unload the weapon I can just put the chambered round back in the magazine and not worry about a loose round. I completely agree. Just out of curiousity, when do you unload? I don't remember the last time I unloaded my CCW piece - I press check every morning, though. |
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I like where this thread is going it's interesting to get all the different opinions and such. But I do think things are being a little over analyzed. I mean were not talking about going to war. And the odds of getting into a all out gun fight is pretty slim no really slim. And thats with one attacker and those odds will be even less when we start talking multiple attackers. I know cops in large cities that have never pulled there gun in self defense shooting in 40 yrs on the job. For me now and most civilian individuals we will never need your gun! Three yrs ago at the mall of america two dirt bags wanted to start something all I did was show them my weapon (1911) sitting on my hip and they chose to move on. My lucky day and theirs. Thats as clos as I have come in the last 45 yrs or so how about you? Only been carrying for 4 years - I've never shown my firearm or had to draw/use it. But there have been instances where having it sure did make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I still like to plan for the worst case - rather have and not need than need and not have; which is the same principal that goes for carrying in general. |
| I would reload every other week. I would say every month take it out to the range, clean it twice a month or more, have a couple empty mags at home that are empty, rotate your carry mags and make sure the springs arent worn. Glocks are notorious for that - a lot of people I know, including LEO's have issues with Glock mags not feeding or having ammo in them for too long and not unloading the mags. Factory mags most of them too |
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I just want to point out that shooter skill level is MUCH more important then equipment in IDPA. In my experience expert class shooters will have better times then sharpshooters regardless of the weapon. The one exception may be revolvers. That said I agree that capacity is a good thing and I carry a 9mm Browning Hi-Power. Now I don't top the magazine off so I carry 12+1 with one or two 13 round reloads. The reason is that if I need to unload the weapon I can just put the chambered round back in the magazine and not worry about a loose round. I completely agree. Just out of curiosity, when do you unload? I don't remember the last time I unloaded my CCW piece - I press check every morning, though. Not a daily thing but if I'm traveling it can be an issue. For example my dad lives in PA and to see him I go through MD or if I'm visiting in NC there are places I can't carry (banks, restaurants that serve alcohol) so I'll unload it before securing it. That said when I go to work (I work on a military base) I don't unload it to put it in the safe at home. I don't know, I guess I just got into the habit of not topping off when I was traveling just about every weekend a while back. |
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I like where this thread is going it's interesting to get all the different opinions and such. But I do think things are being a little over analyzed. I mean were not talking about going to war. And the odds of getting into a all out gun fight is pretty slim no really slim. And thats with one attacker and those odds will be even less when we start talking multiple attackers. I know cops in large cities that have never pulled there gun in self defense shooting in 40 yrs on the job. For me now and most civilian individuals we will never need your gun! Three yrs ago at the mall of america two dirt bags wanted to start something all I did was show them my weapon (1911) sitting on my hip and they chose to move on. My lucky day and theirs. Thats as clos as I have come in the last 45 yrs or so how about you? So you're banking on the more likely event..........So why even carry? |
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Because no one, absolutely no body, EVER has said after a gunfight "Wish I had less ammo." Having more ammo on its own is NEVER a bad thing (unless you're on fire or swimming). If you don't believe me, then start loading only four rounds into your 1911. That ought to be plenty, right?
Look, if you like the 1911 because of its nice single action trigger with short reset or its slim profile and slim magazines or any of the other excellent reasons that some prefer a 1911, that's fine. Being comfortable and confident with the platform is FAR more important than capacity. For many of us, though, the platform we are most comfortable or confident with also has the advantage of being able to hold lots of boolits. Let's take a hypothetical scenario: Let's say you are attacked by two men (more likely than one, anyway). You have 9 rounds in your handgun and if we assume that you are well trained we can expect you to hit 50% of the time in an actual fight. That's 4.5 rounds but we'll round up to five so you can have two hits on each assailant with exactly ONE round left over. Perfect. You win, right? If this were IDPA or Hollywood, sure. In the real world, though, hits in the thoracic cavity, even with the mighty .45 ACP are not guaranteed to stop. You may need to follow up with a CNS hit. You have ONE round to do that. What if there is one more assailant? What if you don't quite make that statistical 50% figure? The ammunition that is currently on board your firearm is far more important than ammunition carried in spare magazines. We carry firearms to prepare for an unlikely event. It takes some pretty bizarre logical contortions necessary to prepare for some unlikely events but declare other events too unlikely to deserve preparation. |
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I like where this thread is going it's interesting to get all the different opinions and such. But I do think things are being a little over analyzed. I mean were not talking about going to war. And the odds of getting into a all out gun fight is pretty slim no really slim. And thats with one attacker and those odds will be even less when we start talking multiple attackers. I know cops in large cities that have never pulled there gun in self defense shooting in 40 yrs on the job. For me now and most civilian individuals we will never need your gun! Three yrs ago at the mall of america two dirt bags wanted to start something all I did was show them my weapon (1911) sitting on my hip and they chose to move on. My lucky day and theirs. Thats as clos as I have come in the last 45 yrs or so how about you? So you're banking on the more likely event..........So why even carry? It seems that I keep getting misunderstood I am not banking on anything and I did not fire 17 rds from my 1911 less than a sec.I am simply stating odds and I am probably being conservative at that. And I carry because I can and because if needed it's there. If I was as you say banking on something I might become nieve and not carry like some anti -gunner. Please read what I write not what you read into what I write. I've carried a gun for for 50 yrs does that sound like I'm banking on not ever needing it. And think about I haven't needed it. I'll carry a gun to my grave and my son will too. Do we want to need it no will we have if we do yes. |
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Because no one, absolutely no body, EVER has said after a gunfight "Wish I had less ammo." Having more ammo on its own is NEVER a bad thing (unless you're on fire or swimming). If you don't believe me, then start loading only four rounds into your 1911. That ought to be plenty, right? Look, if you like the 1911 because of its nice single action trigger with short reset or its slim profile and slim magazines or any of the other excellent reasons that some prefer a 1911, that's fine. Being comfortable and confident with the platform is FAR more important than capacity. For many of us, though, the platform we are most comfortable or confident with also has the advantage of being able to hold lots of boolits. I think you should read my opening post really does not pertain to what you just said. I better go back and read what I said might have left out a word or something. |
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Here is my 0.02 if I have more than 2 tangos who are out gunning people down with a rifle I am not going to try to engage them. I am going to try to get to my truck and even the odds out with my rifle. Taking on a rifles with a pistol is suicide unless you have the drop. My pistol is there to get me back to my rifle. Taking a rifle round sucks I can attest to that and it will take you out of the fight faster than you can imagine.
But also having 30+ rounds of ammo will do you no good in pistol caliber if the tangos are wearing body armor which a lot of gangs have access to now. My suggestion is have a backup plan to your back up plan. This is why I carry 2 knifes (fixed blade and folding), a hadngun with extra ammo, and keep a rifle in my truck (AR or AK) because it will put me on equal grounds with anyone. So many factors that you cannot know or even imagine till SHTF best thing to do is be prepared best you can and TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN. One reason I am getting my fiance trained to shoot and once she gets her CHL I will be carrying something we can interchange mags with whether it is my Walther PPS, M&P or Glock or at the very least same caliber. Make her carry extra ammo for me and BUG.
Use your head, attention to detail, and use your training it may save your life some day. |
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Because no one, absolutely no body, EVER has said after a gunfight "Wish I had less ammo." Having more ammo on its own is NEVER a bad thing (unless you're on fire or swimming). If you don't believe me, then start loading only four rounds into your 1911. That ought to be plenty, right? Look, if you like the 1911 because of its nice single action trigger with short reset or its slim profile and slim magazines or any of the other excellent reasons that some prefer a 1911, that's fine. Being comfortable and confident with the platform is FAR more important than capacity. For many of us, though, the platform we are most comfortable or confident with also has the advantage of being able to hold lots of boolits. I think you should read my opening post really does not pertain to what you just said. I better go back and read what I said might have left out a word or something. Then you'll need to explain what you really meant because my statement is directly related to what you actually said. |
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People I'm not interested in a debate it was a simple question.
I mean I could word it different Lets say five guys come up from behind their within 15 to 25ft away when you spot them how many rds will you get off? One, two, none ,15 , 9 take your pick what are your odds that my 1911 will do any worse or better then your 20 rd gun will? At that range you will be in a world of hurt, I don't care who you are. I shoot well and fast I have 5 different black belts of different styles and degrees if I managed to walk away it would be shire fate. On the other hand one attacker comes for you at the same distance if you are proficient with your weapon will you need 1,2,4,15? Or maybe you won't get a shot off because you will not even for a sec be able to hesitate, and you have no time stand there and analyze your move or situation. Stop and think you could done for. I live and breath self defense I've seen it lived and been there. And the odds are in your favor of not needing to use your gun and getting better simply because more of us can carry and have the guts to do so. I like the 1911 because it's one of the finest weapons ever built and it can get the job done. I have no problem with carrying a gun with twice the capacity but it's not going to save your life any faster or better. hit your target if you have time |
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People I'm not interested in a debate it was a simple question. I mean I could word it different Lets say five guys come up from behind their within 15 to 25ft away when you spot them how many rds will you get off? One, two, none ,15 , 9 take your pick what are your odds that my 1911 will do any worse or better then your 20 rd gun will? At that range you will be in a world of hurt, I don't care who you are. I shoot well and fast I have 5 different black belts of different styles and degrees if I managed to walk away it would be shire fate. On the other hand one attacker comes for you at the same distance if you are proficient with your weapon will you need 1,2,4,15? Or maybe you won't get a shot off because you will not even for a sec be able to hesitate, and you have no time stand there and analyze your move or situation. Stop and think you could done for. I live and breath self defense I've seen it lived and been there. And the odds are in your favor of not needing to use your gun and getting better simply because more of us can carry and have the guts to do so. I like the 1911 because it's one of the finest weapons ever built and it can get the job done. I have no problem with carrying a gun with twice the capacity but it's not going to save your life any faster or better. hit your target if you have time I'm sorry, I thought you had asked "So whats the big deal, why isn't 9 rds enough anymore?" If you just wanted us to tell you how badass you are and validate your blackbelts and living and breathing self defense, you probably shouldn't have asked a question in a fucking technical forum. We answered your question. Want people to smoke your pole and make you feel good about yourself? Go somewhere else. |