Posted: 3/5/2011 6:47:52 AM EDT
| Are there any double stack 1911s with a solid metal frame? Or do they all use tupperware? |
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Caspian and Para. Les Baer makes a doublestack on a Caspian frame. The STI doublestacks with the polymer grip are great guns though. ETA: Springfield and Rock Island also make doublestack guns with metal frames. I came in here to post about Springfields. You can still get the GI models for reasonable money too. I don't know how well they run, though. |
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Three different designs, each uses its own proprietary frame and mags.
Para Ordnance (Springfield / Rock Island also use this general design) Caspian SVI / STI. SVI's 2-piece frame is available as a steel or aluminum frame and a steel or aluminum grip frame (shown below). STI offers their grip frames in aluminum or plastic. 
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Which Para uses a metal frame? I have only seen the Warthog models but they were plastic. I have been trying to find the Springfield GI, to fondle and check it out but have had no luck tracking one down in Houston. Gun shows never have them either. For the Caspian frame, does any manuf use them, or would I have to build my own using those? I have looked at STI's site, and I did not notice any metal frame options.
Maybe Im not wording my question right, I see that STI offers double stack metal frames, but I may be incorrect, but it seems like their frames are metal and plastic together, I have not been able to handle these either. Is there a full metal 1911 with the only exception being the grip panels by themselves? I have not set my mind on a double stack 1911, I would just like to see how they feel, and do not want one like the Warthog that is mainly plastic. Im sure its fine, Para has great ratings and what not, I just dont want a plastic 1911, if I could find an all metal double stack 1911 that feels nice in my hands, I would be sold. But it is proving difficult finding anything for comparison. Pictures do no justice when it comes to firearms. |
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Which Para uses a metal frame? I have only seen the Warthog models but they were plastic. I have been trying to find the Springfield GI, to fondle and check it out but have had no luck tracking one down in Houston. Gun shows never have them either. For the Caspian frame, does any manuf use them, or would I have to build my own using those? I have looked at STI's site, and I did not notice any metal frame options. Maybe Im not wording my question right, I see that STI offers double stack metal frames, but I may be incorrect, but it seems like their frames are metal and plastic together, I have not been able to handle these either. Is there a full metal 1911 with the only exception being the grip panels by themselves? I have not set my mind on a double stack 1911, I would just like to see how they feel, and do not want one like the Warthog that is mainly plastic. Im sure its fine, Para has great ratings and what not, I just dont want a plastic 1911, if I could find an all metal double stack 1911 that feels nice in my hands, I would be sold. But it is proving difficult finding anything for comparison. Pictures do no justice when it comes to firearms. I have never seen a Para with a metal frame. The Warthog model is metal unless something has changed. The springfield GI is a Para frame. On the STI the actual frame is steel but the grip housing is plastic. The only OEM using Caspian that I know of is Les Baer |
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Para Ordance
I've never seen or heard of Para with a plasitc frame. The started their company with the double stack steel (blue/stainless) frame followed by a alloy frame. Their website doesn't mention a single ploylmor frame. CD |
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Para Ordance I've never seen or heard of Para with a plasitc frame. The started their company with the double stack steel (blue/stainless) frame followed by a alloy frame. Their website doesn't mention a single ploylmor frame. CD This............ |
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Which Para uses a metal frame? I have only seen the Warthog models but they were plastic. I have been trying to find the Springfield GI, to fondle and check it out but have had no luck tracking one down in Houston. Gun shows never have them either. For the Caspian frame, does any manuf use them, or would I have to build my own using those? I have looked at STI's site, and I did not notice any metal frame options. Maybe Im not wording my question right, I see that STI offers double stack metal frames, but I may be incorrect, but it seems like their frames are metal and plastic together, I have not been able to handle these either. Is there a full metal 1911 with the only exception being the grip panels by themselves? I have not set my mind on a double stack 1911, I would just like to see how they feel, and do not want one like the Warthog that is mainly plastic. Im sure its fine, Para has great ratings and what not, I just dont want a plastic 1911, if I could find an all metal double stack 1911 that feels nice in my hands, I would be sold. But it is proving difficult finding anything for comparison. Pictures do no justice when it comes to firearms. STI and SVI "plastic" grip can be switched out with metal it is on the web page under options. SVI iirc no longer offers a plastic option. PARA does not make a plastic gun (some say they are made out of shit). SA uses a Para copy. Caspain all metal. Fusion uses a STI type frame. most common wide 1911 I see is STI. |
As other's have mentioned. Para uses metal frames...\\pictures from John at 1911 org
new Dan Wesson Hi Caps, Havoc, Mayhem and Titan use a metal frame too, looks Caspian ish... 
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Which Para uses a metal frame? I have only seen the Warthog models but they were plastic. I have been trying to find the Springfield GI, to fondle and check it out but have had no luck tracking one down in Houston. Gun shows never have them either. For the Caspian frame, does any manuf use them, or would I have to build my own using those? I have looked at STI's site, and I did not notice any metal frame options. Maybe Im not wording my question right, I see that STI offers double stack metal frames, but I may be incorrect, but it seems like their frames are metal and plastic together, I have not been able to handle these either. Is there a full metal 1911 with the only exception being the grip panels by themselves? I have not set my mind on a double stack 1911, I would just like to see how they feel, and do not want one like the Warthog that is mainly plastic. Im sure its fine, Para has great ratings and what not, I just dont want a plastic 1911, if I could find an all metal double stack 1911 that feels nice in my hands, I would be sold. But it is proving difficult finding anything for comparison. Pictures do no justice when it comes to firearms. I have never seen a Para with a metal frame. The Warthog model is metal unless something has changed. The springfield GI is a Para frame. On the STI the actual frame is steel but the grip housing is plastic. The only OEM using Caspian that I know of is Les Baer Sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to ask if any dbl 1911 have a metal grip housings. I am using the wrong lingo I guess, I am a total 1911 noob and only know how to shoot them. All the Paras I have held had plastic grip housings. Metal frame yes, but plastic that surrounds the mag. I have not seen any disassembled, so Im going by what I felt at the shop and gun show. I know STI has metal frame kits, but like you mentioned, the grip is plastic. I would like this area to be metal, like that of a standard 1911 but double stack. Does such a pistol exist? Or am I dreaming too much? |
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Ok I just did some more research on Caspian. I believe they make what I am looking for. This or This How would I go about finishing off this frame? I have read several horror stories of people custom building their own 1911s, with fitment issues and all. Should I just get a Caspian slide and finish it off with a parts kit and barrel? Or could I get a slide from somewhere else?
I also see Caspian offers different metals for the frame, Carbon steel and Titanium. Is the Titanium stronger, or just lighter? Why do they not offer a Titanium slide, cant handle the abuse? Whats the Pros and Cons of Carbon, Stainless, and Damascus steel? Thanks again guys for helping out. |
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Which Para uses a metal frame? I have only seen the Warthog models but they were plastic. I have been trying to find the Springfield GI, to fondle and check it out but have had no luck tracking one down in Houston. Gun shows never have them either. For the Caspian frame, does any manuf use them, or would I have to build my own using those? I have looked at STI's site, and I did not notice any metal frame options. Maybe Im not wording my question right, I see that STI offers double stack metal frames, but I may be incorrect, but it seems like their frames are metal and plastic together, I have not been able to handle these either. Is there a full metal 1911 with the only exception being the grip panels by themselves? I have not set my mind on a double stack 1911, I would just like to see how they feel, and do not want one like the Warthog that is mainly plastic. Im sure its fine, Para has great ratings and what not, I just dont want a plastic 1911, if I could find an all metal double stack 1911 that feels nice in my hands, I would be sold. But it is proving difficult finding anything for comparison. Pictures do no justice when it comes to firearms. I have never seen a Para with a metal frame. The Warthog model is metal unless something has changed. The springfield GI is a Para frame. On the STI the actual frame is steel but the grip housing is plastic. The only OEM using Caspian that I know of is Les Baer Sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to ask if any dbl 1911 have a metal grip housings. I am using the wrong lingo I guess, I am a total 1911 noob and only know how to shoot them. All the Paras I have held had plastic grip housings. Metal frame yes, but plastic that surrounds the mag. I have not seen any disassembled, so Im going by what I felt at the shop and gun show. I know STI has metal frame kits, but like you mentioned, the grip is plastic. I would like this area to be metal, like that of a standard 1911 but double stack. Does such a pistol exist? Or am I dreaming too much? I think you are talking about just the grips––like the wooden grips on a standard 1911. Yes, there are companies that make aluminum grips for Paras, and a lot of people just shoot them with no grips at all. They just remove them, along with the bushings, and put some skate board tape on them. Same thing for Caspian wide body frames. If that is NOT what you are talking about, then you may not realize exactly what you are looking at when you held the Para. The piece / part that 'surrounds the mag.' is the frame (not the grips) and it is metal. Para does not make a plastic framed gun. |
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Sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to ask if any dbl 1911 have a metal grip housings. I am using the wrong lingo I guess, I am a total 1911 noob and only know how to shoot them. All the Paras I have held had plastic grip housings. Metal frame yes, but plastic that surrounds the mag. I have not seen any disassembled, so Im going by what I felt at the shop and gun show. I know STI has metal frame kits, but like you mentioned, the grip is plastic. I would like this area to be metal, like that of a standard 1911 but double stack. Does such a pistol exist? Or am I dreaming too much? aside from the grips themselves, and not being able to fathom what the hell you're talking about, paras are all metal. The "bits that surround the mag" are very metal. I suggest you go back to the gun shop and handle one again as you are simply wong..... |
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Ok I just did some more research on Caspian. I believe they make what I am looking for. This or This How would I go about finishing off this frame? I have read several horror stories of people custom building their own 1911s, with fitment issues and all. Should I just get a Caspian slide and finish it off with a parts kit and barrel? Or could I get a slide from somewhere else? I also see Caspian offers different metals for the frame, Carbon steel and Titanium. Is the Titanium stronger, or just lighter? Why do they not offer a Titanium slide, cant handle the abuse? Whats the Pros and Cons of Carbon, Stainless, and Damascus steel? Thanks again guys for helping out. As you're a self professed noob, I really wouldn't take this route. Even if it all goes perfectly, you'll likely spend more putting it all together than if you'd just bought a factory gun. Are you wanting it as a range gun, carry gun, home defence weapon ? |
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Sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to ask if any dbl 1911 have a metal grip housings. I am using the wrong lingo I guess, I am a total 1911 noob and only know how to shoot them. All the Paras I have held had plastic grip housings. Metal frame yes, but plastic that surrounds the mag. I have not seen any disassembled, so Im going by what I felt at the shop and gun show. I know STI has metal frame kits, but like you mentioned, the grip is plastic. I would like this area to be metal, like that of a standard 1911 but double stack. Does such a pistol exist? Or am I dreaming too much? aside from the grips themselves, and not being able to fathom what the hell you're talking about, paras are all metal. The "bits that surround the mag" are very metal. I suggest you go back to the gun shop and handle one again as you are simply wong..... The whole grip surface, not just the panels, I would have said panels. Those are replaceable, I figure that should have gone without saying. Where you would see checkering, it is Plastic on Para guns,where the GRIP PANELS bolt to, is plastic. I have not seen a double stack Para, where UNDER the grip panels is metal. My friends Para GI is solid metal sure, but all the double stacks, P14, Warthog, were not complete metal. That was the whole point the dealer made when he said not to buy the Para double stack because they are tupperware pistols. You say they are not, but I have not seen any in the shop that are solid metal, 14+1 1911s. Maybe it was just the Warthog models he had, but they were not metal. On STIs website, they show the 2011 frame to be 2 pieces, a solid metal, but what holds the trigger, mag, and mag catch is all polymer. The Caspian is the only frame I have found that fits what I am looking for. Sure I may be a self professed noob, but thats not going to stop me from trying. How am I going to learn when I pay someone else to do it for me? How are you supposed to learn when you are too scared to try? Or you can just pay someone else to do it for you and not have the pride of having done it yourself. |
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The whole grip surface, not just the panels, I would have said panels. Those are replaceable, I figure that should have gone without saying. Where you would see checkering, it is Plastic on Para guns,where the GRIP PANELS bolt to, is plastic. I have not seen a double stack Para, where UNDER the grip panels is metal. My friends Para GI is solid metal sure, but all the double stacks, P14, Warthog, were not complete metal. That was the whole point the dealer made when he said not to buy the Para double stack because they are tupperware pistols. You say they are not, but I have not seen any in the shop that are solid metal, 14+1 1911s. Maybe it was just the Warthog models he had, but they were not metal. On STIs website, they show the 2011 frame to be 2 pieces, a solid metal, but what holds the trigger, mag, and mag catch is all polymer. The Caspian is the only frame I have found that fits what I am looking for. Sure I may be a self professed noob, but thats not going to stop me from trying. How am I going to learn when I pay someone else to do it for me? How are you supposed to learn when you are too scared to try? Or you can just pay someone else to do it for you and not have the pride of having done it yourself. Para doesn't offer (and has never offered) any polymer-framed models. They do have some aluminum framed models, such as the Warthog you mentioned: http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=8 The P12 / P14 / P16 / P18 guns are steel framed, full stop, end of story. You may be seeing the plastic mainspring housing on the back side of the grip and making the assumption that the entire grip is plastic, but I assure you that this isn't the case. The Kimber Ten series was built on the BUL polymer frame, and those, along with the Wilson KZ-45, are the only true polymer framed 1911s that come to mind. |
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I'd find a gun shop that knows what they are selling the one your going to obviously does not.
All Major Double Stack 1911 guns can be had with Al or Steel frames, yes even STI and SVI. the only one that does not offer a metal option would be BUL. STI 
Some more info on STI SVI metal grip frames read me |
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The whole grip surface, not just the panels, I would have said panels. Those are replaceable, I figure that should have gone without saying. well, you managed to confuse many of us by insisting that the Para frames are not metal, when they very much are. Where you would see checkering, it is Plastic on Para guns,where the GRIP PANELS bolt to, is plastic. I have not seen a double stack Para, where UNDER the grip panels is metal. My friends Para GI is solid metal sure, but all the double stacks, P14, Warthog, were not complete metal. uh huh That was the whole point the dealer made when he said not to buy the Para double stack because they are tupperware pistols. your dealer is a slow witted, untruthful dolt. I'm starting to wonder about his customers.... You say they are not, but I have not seen any in the shop that are solid metal, 14+1 1911s. Maybe it was just the Warthog models he had, but they were not metal. Sure I may be a self professed noob, but thats not going to stop me from trying. How am I going to learn when I pay someone else to do it for me? How are you supposed to learn when you are too scared to try? Or you can just pay someone else to do it for you and not have the pride of having done it yourself. Hey, your money, your pile of metal shavings. Knock yourself out. |
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Sorry for the confusion, but I was trying to ask if any dbl 1911 have a metal grip housings. I am using the wrong lingo I guess, I am a total 1911 noob and only know how to shoot them. All the Paras I have held had plastic grip housings. Metal frame yes, but plastic that surrounds the mag. I have not seen any disassembled, so Im going by what I felt at the shop and gun show. I know STI has metal frame kits, but like you mentioned, the grip is plastic. I would like this area to be metal, like that of a standard 1911 but double stack. Does such a pistol exist? Or am I dreaming too much? aside from the grips themselves, and not being able to fathom what the hell you're talking about, paras are all metal. The "bits that surround the mag" are very metal. I suggest you go back to the gun shop and handle one again as you are simply wong..... The whole grip surface, not just the panels, I would have said panels. Those are replaceable, I figure that should have gone without saying. Where you would see checkering, it is Plastic on Para guns,where the GRIP PANELS bolt to, is plastic. I have not seen a double stack Para, where UNDER the grip panels is metal. My friends Para GI is solid metal sure, but all the double stacks, P14, Warthog, were not complete metal. That was the whole point the dealer made when he said not to buy the Para double stack because they are tupperware pistols. You say they are not, but I have not seen any in the shop that are solid metal, 14+1 1911s. Maybe it was just the Warthog models he had, but they were not metal. On STIs website, they show the 2011 frame to be 2 pieces, a solid metal, but what holds the trigger, mag, and mag catch is all polymer. The Caspian is the only frame I have found that fits what I am looking for. Sure I may be a self professed noob, but thats not going to stop me from trying. How am I going to learn when I pay someone else to do it for me? How are you supposed to learn when you are too scared to try? Or you can just pay someone else to do it for you and not have the pride of having done it yourself. Buddy, I don't want to sound like a dick, but I think you are mistaken, and you should listen to the people who are speaking here, as they are right. I don't know what you looked at, but Paras have metal frames––that's it. Plastic grips and likely a plastic mainspring housing, but a metal frame. Here is a picture of a Para frame. The black part is the grip, and it is plastic, and its removeable and not even really necessary––many people shoot them without grips. Everything that is silver (stainless, in this instance) is steel. Is this the same frame that you held? 
Can you modify it, or change a single stack over to a double stack yourself? Sure. But it will be more expensive in the long run than buying a complete gun. Is there a certain amount of 'pride' involved in building it yourself? Sure. But 1911s are not like ARs. It takes a long time to learn how to make a 1911 / 2011 run right. You can end up ruining a lot of parts and spending a lot of money on learning. But, your call. |
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http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/jonmcfatty/shootingguns/023.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/jonmcfatty/shootingguns/024.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/jonmcfatty/shootingguns/012.jpg My Springfield wide body is all metal minus the grips. Springfield makes their own frame but uses para ordanance mags. |
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I would like to apologize and admit I was mostly wrong about Para's having plastic frames. They are an aluminum alloy, mixed with something that gives it that "plastic" feel. But I was wrong, and apologize for butt hurting any Para fans. But I will argue, that one particular Warthawg felt more plastic than a Glock. Every Para I have handled since posting this, has been a metal alloy frame. I actually have not seen any Warthawgs since posting this, but handled some P14s and a Todd JArrett edition, and a few others. They just dont feel right. I am expecting the steel feeling from standard 1911s, I guess thats why I thought they were plastic, just didnt feel right. I have not handled anything with a Caspian frame. I understand that 1911s are not easy to work on, build, or whatever. I am not expecting it to be like an AR15 and just snap some pieces together, pop a few pins, and be done. I understand the craftsmanship and precision involved with the 1911s. I am willing to learn, and am willing to teach myself. John M. Browning didnt have someone build his 1911 did he? Im just saying, I would like to have that "pride" and sense of satisfaction of building my own 1911. Make it mine. Im sure plenty of you can understand that. Its not really about individualism as much as it is about satisfaction of a job well done. Its just about challenging myself really.
But I just got a new job, and will be saving now for my next purchase. I may take the advice of yall here, and buy a complete gun first and start messing with it before I jump straight into building my own from parts. I get a crazy discount on Kimber, but am not sure if I want a Kimber. I have heard both great and horrible things, as with anything really, so I dont know yet. Im sure I will come here or another 1911 specific forum and get advice before dropping some cash. Thanks again, and I apologize for being wrong about Para and insisting I was right. ETA: The shop I was at that told me all Paras were plastic, was Carters Country in Houston Tx. I dont remember his name, and have not been back since. Because, you were right. That guy didnt know shit. And Insists all double stack 1911s were garbage and made of plastic. He was an older guy, and worked at a decently respect hunting supply retailer, so I basically bought his bullshit off faith alone. So, I apologize for arguing something I knew absolutely nothing about. But Im learning, and thats what matters. |
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GoatHead,
Thanks for the update and apology. I understand where your coming from in regards to building your own. I'm building mine after shooting a 1911 for nearly 30 yrs and still I'm having fitting problems. 
Suggest that you order Brownells catalog for the 1911 (see link above). I highy suggest that you order a slide already fitted to the frame. Then go to their Web Bench for some hints. Here's a few more links that will help. 10-8 1911 project Since your down there in Houston/Katy area I've got an old friend thats a gunsmith in the area. Big bearded redhead Norweign by the name of Roy Hinton. Went to High School with him and he built my first 1911. I've lost contact with him down there as I move around allot. Take care and good luck. CD |
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No worries, it's all good.
If you really want to speak to someone super knowledgeable about guns, call my local storeThe Gunroom and ask them about Para's......or Glocks..... 
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| I'm sitting here with a magnet. And a Para P14 aimed at Gregory K's post. And yep the damn thing sticks to everything except the trigger MSH and grips. That tells me it must be steel. Maybe I'll stick my Kimber slide on top. And tell everyone it's the new Kimber Hi cap....LOL |
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I would like to apologize and admit I was mostly wrong about Para's having plastic frames. <snip> So, I apologize for arguing something I knew absolutely nothing about. But Im learning, and thats what matters. Classy post.  Glad you came back to stick around!
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I'm sitting here with a magnet. And a Para P14 aimed at Gregory K's post. And yep the damn thing sticks to everything except the trigger MSH and grips. That tells me it must be steel. Maybe I'll stick my Kimber slide on top. And tell everyone it's the new Kimber Hi cap....LOL You sure the mag is out? Haha! Thanks again guys, and it sucks when you believe someone in a "respected" gun store/shop and have someone feed you complete bullshit. Then I come here, and make myself look like a total retard by going on what I was told. But I thank you guys, and I will be returning for more questions. I really like the look of the Caspian frames. Whats the deal with the Titanium frame/receiver? And what are die cut stick on grips? Is that some kind of grip tape? Is the Titanium worth the extra 300$? I assume it would be a stronger frame, but lighter since its titanium. Thanks again for the info, im saving some cash now so when I get to around 1000$ Im gonna take the plunge and buy some parts. I have a few smiths who's brains are available for picking. But I want to get as many people's advice as possible. To try prevent me insisting on some incorrect info. |
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I'm sitting here with a magnet. And a Para P14 aimed at Gregory K's post. And yep the damn thing sticks to everything except the trigger MSH and grips. That tells me it must be steel. Maybe I'll stick my Kimber slide on top. And tell everyone it's the new Kimber Hi cap....LOL You sure the mag is out? Haha! Thanks again guys, and it sucks when you believe someone in a "respected" gun store/shop and have someone feed you complete bullshit. Then I come here, and make myself look like a total retard by going on what I was told. But I thank you guys, and I will be returning for more questions. I really like the look of the Caspian frames. Whats the deal with the Titanium frame/receiver? And what are die cut stick on grips? Is that some kind of grip tape? Is the Titanium worth the extra 300$? I assume it would be a stronger frame, but lighter since its titanium. Thanks again for the info, im saving some cash now so when I get to around 1000$ Im gonna take the plunge and buy some parts. I have a few smiths who's brains are available for picking. But I want to get as many people's advice as possible. To try prevent me insisting on some incorrect info. I've never met anyone who felt satisfied they spent the extra money on a titanium frame. If it were me, I wouldn't spend the extra money, but it's your gun, and if you want it, that's what matters. The standard hi-cap Caspian frames are really nice. Some people like the feel of the steel hi-cap frame, and most who grab a Caspian hi-cap remark that it feels a little skinnier than an STI frame. You can use Caspian hi-cap mags, or modified STI magazines. The die-cut grips are just what you thought––skateboard tape pre-cut for the frame––peel and stick. Many guys who shoot a Caspian or Para don't even use the grips. They just remove the bushings, put some skateboard tape on it, and roll. FWIW, Travis Tomasie, of the US Army Action Shooting Team, used a Caspian hi-cap for years very successfully on the USPSA circuit, before switching platorms this year (allegedly to Para Ordnance). |
| You will find frame's of all types of materials. Titanium when used in a Hi cap is for weight reduction. Load 14 to 18 rounds of 45ACP in a pistol. And the thing gets real heavy. The grip tape is used in place of other grip material to keep the grip as narrow as possible. Double stacks are fat. I have shot one for years and like it fat grip and all. When I shoot my single stack I really notice how much skinnier it feels. Have to make my single stack fatter in the grip! |
| I would like to handle the Titanium frame just to see how it feels. You know how different metals have a different "feel" too them, I want to be able to feel the titanium before I make that kind of decision. 850$ for a frame is outrageous, but if it feels good enough, why not? 15 rounds of 45 is damn heavy. I have an FNP45 USG with the 15rd mags, and they are fucking bricks. To me, the first thing on the list when buying a pistol, is how it feels in my hand. I love the grip size of double stack 1911s, I can really dig in and grab the thing. My main concern is how the checkering feels on the titanium frame, the High Caliber gun show and others here in Houston, never have anything special for 1911s, so I dont know where I could go to be able to fondle and drool over a Caspian frame. |
| I think what might have confused you is that Para coats their non-stainless frames with some kind of paint that makes them feel a little like plastic. Combine that with the light weight of the aluminum and their tendency to use a plastic main spring housing, and I can see where the confusion comes from. |
| Titanium may be harder to machine. And this may pose a problem if you are going to build a gun from scratch using components from different manufacture's. I'm not 100% on this and hopefully someone with more experience will chime in if I am. If I were to do it over again. Buying I would go Para. Mine has been 99% right out of the box. I go 99% only because I swapped out the mag release. The plastic one started to drop loaded mags if the wind blew on it. If I were building. I'd go Caspian and start with a frame and slide from them. Fitted by them. Caspian makes better slides than Para. |