[ARCHIVED THREAD] - FN 5.7 vs. FNP .45 basic (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/3/2010 5:34:43 PM EDT
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Hey guys,
Given the choice which would you rather have if you had a 1,200 dollar budget and wanted a companion handgun for your SCAR? FN 5.7x28 in FDE FNP .45 basic in FDE You also own a PS90, and 1911 so ammo for either is already stacked deep. |
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The only reason I would buy a 5.7 would be if I had a burning need to get through body armor, OR if I had a serious rat problem at the house.... Well said. 5.7mm is less than spectacular, especially out of a handgun. Before some insensitive jackholes cite the Ft. Hood shooting, let me remind you that lots of folks have been killed with all sorts of statistically poor performers and the goal of a defensive handgun is not to eventually kill but to STOP a threat. .45 ACP as well as .40 S&W, 9mm, .357 Sig, 10mm, .44 special, and lots of other handgun rounds consistently penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs and expand to fairly respectable diameters. They reliably stop threats. |
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Let's try not to turn this into a 5.7 bash thread if we can.
It's not like either gun is going to be used for HD. I have a cheap, easily re-obtainable Glock for that. Keep that in mind when making your decision, this is purely a "sidearm" to a safe queen rifle. Something to drag out for the "odd" factor. Which both guns have going for them. |
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Given the choice which would you rather have if you had a 1,200 dollar budget and wanted a companion handgun for your SCAR?
Anyone that has actually owned (or at least shot) the Five-seveN pistol would recommend it. I do.
FN 5.7x28 in FDE FNP .45 basic in FDE Quoted:
- Prior to the Tyler courthouse shootout, CHL Mark Wilson didn't feel a burning need to carry a handgun that could penetrate body armor; he was killed as a result.
The only reason I would buy a 5.7 would be if I had a burning need to get through body armor - Prior to the North Hollywood shootout, LAPD didn't feel a burning need to issue handguns that could penetrate body armor; nearly 20 police officers and civilians were injured as a result. - Prior to a 1994 carjacking, SFPD didn't feel a burning need to issue handguns that could penetrate body armor; James Guelff was killed as a result and several others were injured. You should learn from their mistakes. After all, if any one of these shootouts had involved FBI agents, the FBI would have switched to a handgun capable of body armor penetration, and you would likely insist on it yourself –– just like most insist on 12+ inches of gelatin penetration as a direct result of the two FBI agents killed in the 1986 shootout. .45 ACP as well as .40 S&W, 9mm, .357 Sig, 10mm, .44 special, and lots of other handgun rounds consistently penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs and expand to fairly respectable diameters. So does 5.7x28mm from the Five-seveN.
They reliably stop threats. See above.
5.7mm is less than spectacular, especially out of a handgun. Handguns, by nature, are less than spectacular. In any verifiable case where someone was shot with 5.7x28mm, it performed exactly how any typical pistol caliber should be expected to perform. Those victims shot in vital regions died, while those shot in non-vital regions lived. "Stopping power" is dictated by shot placement and has virtually nothing to do with bullet size, energy, etc. The miniscule size difference between one tiny pistol bullet (5.7mm) and another tiny pistol bullet (9mm, etc) is irrelevant. They are both tiny pistol bullets, and their performance depends on shot placement.
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This comparison is difficult. It's like comparing a Miata to a pickup truck. They'll both get you where you want to go, but they are purpose built for two entirely different kinds of uses. Only you can possibly know what you want or need.
The 57 has low recoil, large capacity, high velocity small rounds, and is designed for maximum penetration. The 45 is pretty much exactly the opposite. Slow, large bullet, with more recoil, and less penetration. Obviously, you need both. 
Az |
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It makes me giggle when people start comparing calibers and they say somthing about the .45 being big and slow.
As if anyone has ever dodged a .45 like it was a painball they saw coming a mile away. I've never fired the 5.7 but I own a FNP .45 USG. I'd say get the .45 because the ammo is more common and the money you save you can use to buy said ammo and/or more mags. |
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It makes me giggle when people start comparing calibers and they say somthing about the .45 being big and slow. As if anyone has ever dodged a .45 like it was a painball they saw coming a mile away. It just depends on how literally you take what's written. Compared to the 5.7, the .45 is a much larger round that flies at less than half it's speed. I suppose the correct way to phrase it would be that it's slower. Is that better? 
Az |
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I own a FNP-45 (not USG) and a FN 5.7 - The FNP-45 is my nightstand gun and it is the smoothest shooting .45 that I ever had. The 5.7 is a big, but lightweight gun. You can shoot several rounds really fast into a small group - even at 25 yards or so.
I would say that both pistols are good, and I have the feeling that there is more to the 5.7 x 28mm ammo than people think, however the .45 acp is a proven round. Can't go wrong with .45 acp. |
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I would get the FNP45. I have the USG model and it is a spectacular pistol.
Quoted:
The only reason I would buy a 5.7 would be if I had a burning need to get through body armor - Prior to the Tyler courthouse shootout, CHL Mark Wilson didn't feel a burning need to carry a handgun that could penetrate body armor; he was killed as a result. - Prior to the North Hollywood shootout, LAPD didn't feel a burning need to issue handguns that could penetrate body armor; nearly 20 police officers and civilians were injured as a result. - Prior to a 1994 carjacking, SFPD didn't feel a burning need to issue handguns that could penetrate body armor; James Guelff was killed as a result and several others were injured. You act as though, someone armed with a 5.7 could have prevented any of this. The 7.62x25 has FAR better AP ballistics, and still meets the FBI recommended penetration after going through Kevlar with a normal FMJ round. Either way the OP said this was not a defense pistol. And in any of the said cases, you would be better off with a rifle. |
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Correct. In each of the cases I listed, the attackers were shot multiple times with 9mm or .45 ACP, with no effect. If the victims in any of these incidents had been using Five-seveN pistols, the opposite would likely be true, and a number of casualties would have been prevented.
You act as though, someone armed with a 5.7 could have prevented any of this. The 7.62x25 has FAR better AP ballistics, Incorrect. The 5.7x28mm has a pointed profile and (even in civilian format) is capable of a muzzle velocity roughly 1,000 ft/s higher than the 7.62x25mm, in a pistol to pistol comparison. The 7.62x25mm is not even close to the 5.7x28mm in terms of penetration ability.
and still meets the FBI recommended penetration after going through Kevlar with a normal FMJ round. So does 5.7x28mm by EA.
And in any of the said cases, you would be better off with a rifle. This is irrelevant because in many such incidents, including the ones I listed, a pistol is the only option on the table.
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FNP45 why the basic model? if you have a $1200 budget, you can get the Tac model plus have enough leftover for an RDS. The thing carries 16 rounds of 230gr .45ACP. Land three or four of those on some guy wearing soft body armor, and I'm pretty sure that you will knock him square on his ass.  Then start practicing to send the fifth round into the femoral and you are set. You can't run around worried about if you need to penetrate body armor or not in the off chance that you get stuck in a firefight. And you have to accept the very real possibility that you can be completely outgunned and outmanned no matter what you are carrying. If you walk into the North Hollywood shootout, you best bet is to have body armor yourself rather than 4 guns for different possibilities.I like the FiveSeveN, but with that budget, the FNP45 tac is king shit. |
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Correct. In each of the cases I listed, the attackers were shot multiple times with 9mm or .45 ACP, with no effect. If the victims in any of these incidents had been using Five-seveN pistols, the opposite would likely be true, and a number of casualties would have been prevented.
You act as though, someone armed with a 5.7 could have prevented any of this. The 7.62x25 has FAR better AP ballistics, Incorrect. The 5.7x28mm has a pointed profile and (even in civilian format) is capable of a muzzle velocity roughly 1,000 ft/s higher than the 7.62x25mm, in a pistol to pistol comparison. The 7.62x25mm is not even close to the 5.7x28mm in terms of penetration ability.
and still meets the FBI recommended penetration after going through Kevlar with a normal FMJ round. So does 5.7x28mm by EA.
And in any of the said cases, you would be better off with a rifle. This is irrelevant because in many such incidents, including the ones I listed, a pistol is the only option on the table.X2 It's nice to see other informed people in these 5.7 vs the world threads. Most people have no hesitation posting absolutely false information about the 5.7x28 cartridge. It's truly amazing. OP, if you are looking for odd, the FiveseveN seems like the choice. I also bought the FsN as a "niche" gun. I was a Glock guy but after a while of training with it I replaced my Glocks with my FsN for my night stand, shtf, go-to handgun. It's not for everyone but I love it. After all, there is no perfect round, otherwise we'd all be using it. |
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X2 It's nice to see other informed people in these 5.7 vs the world threads. Most people have no hesitation posting absolutely false information about the 5.7x28 cartridge. It's truly amazing. Not posting false information, just the test results I have seen. With FMJ ammo that civilians can easily obtain the 7.62x25 out performs the SS-195 5.7x28. Vest was draped over the face of the gelatin block. Vest was new old stock but never issued. Fabric was Kevlar 29. Vest was NIJ II standards. 7.62 Bullet Performance: 7.62x25mm Sellior & Bellot 85gr FMJ Impact Velocity : 1521 Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8" Weapon: CZ 52, with 4.6" barrel length Distance: 10 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face Test site conditions - 72 deg F Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes Bullet recovered average diameter: 0.462 5.7 Bullet Performance: 5.7x28mm FN SS-195 28gr JHP Impact Velocity : 2113 (10-shot average) Deepest Penetration Depth : 6.2" Weapon: FN 5.7, with 4.8" barrel length Distance: 4 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face Test site conditions - 89 deg F Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes Bullet recovered average diameter: 0.394 The full tests have more information and can be viewed here: 7.62x25 Test 5.7x28 Test Based on these test results the 7.62x25 round out performs the 28gr 5.7x28 round. If you have any data that proves otherwise, please post. |
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X2 It's nice to see other informed people in these 5.7 vs the world threads. Most people have no hesitation posting absolutely false information about the 5.7x28 cartridge. It's truly amazing. Not posting false information, just the test results I have seen. With FMJ ammo that civilians can easily obtain the 7.62x25 out performs the SS-195 5.7x28. Vest was draped over the face of the gelatin block. Vest was new old stock but never issued. Fabric was Kevlar 29. Vest was NIJ II standards. 7.62 Bullet Performance: 7.62x25mm Sellior & Bellot 85gr FMJ Impact Velocity : 1521 Deepest Penetration Depth : 11.8" Weapon: CZ 52, with 4.6" barrel length Distance: 10 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face Test site conditions - 72 deg F Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes Bullet recovered average diameter: 0.462 5.7 Bullet Performance: 5.7x28mm FN SS-195 28gr JHP Impact Velocity : 2113 (10-shot average) Deepest Penetration Depth : 6.2" Weapon: FN 5.7, with 4.8" barrel length Distance: 4 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face Test site conditions - 89 deg F Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 5 minutes Bullet recovered average diameter: 0.394 The full tests have more information and can be viewed here: 7.62x25 Test 5.7x28 Test Based on these test results the 7.62x25 round out performs the 28gr 5.7x28 round. If you have any data that proves otherwise, please post. http://www.eliteammunition.net/eliteammunition.html EA 5.7x28mm pushes bullets substantially heavier than the SS195 at higher velocities, as independently chronographed by Combat Handguns and other sources. A number of their loads exceed the FBI penetration standard when fired into either bare ballistic gelatin or gelatin covered with a Kevlar vest. |
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http://www.hcfop39.org/ejournaliss1vol2.htm
We placed two Level III vests in front of a car, and an additional vest over the front car seat... The first shot went all the way through the first vest, through the second vest, cleanly with no trajectory change through the windshield, through the front of the vest on the seat, through the front seat of the car, through the back of the vest, and we eventually dug it out from the rear of the back seat.
<snip> Simply to test car doors, we found what we expected at this point. From the side, it will go through one side of a car and out the other. <snip> Briefly, Elite Ammunition also makes personal protection cartridges in this caliber called S4, which we felt deserved testing in an abbreviated fashion while we had all the personnel and equipment present. These rounds also would penetrate one Level three Vest, and unlike the Devastator, the S4 was found to deform and tumble, shredding its way along. Exit holes were significantly larger than the Devastator. In large part, beside the tumbling action, this was due to velocity. No this isn’t a typo, but the S4 left the handgun each time close to 2600 fps. More information can be found in the link. |
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http://www.hcfop39.org/ejournaliss1vol2.htm We placed two Level III vests in front of a car, and an additional vest over the front car seat... The first shot went all the way through the first vest, through the second vest, cleanly with no trajectory change through the windshield, through the front of the vest on the seat, through the front seat of the car, through the back of the vest, and we eventually dug it out from the rear of the back seat.
<snip> Simply to test car doors, we found what we expected at this point. From the side, it will go through one side of a car and out the other. <snip> Briefly, Elite Ammunition also makes personal protection cartridges in this caliber called S4, which we felt deserved testing in an abbreviated fashion while we had all the personnel and equipment present. These rounds also would penetrate one Level three Vest, and unlike the Devastator, the S4 was found to deform and tumble, shredding its way along. Exit holes were significantly larger than the Devastator. In large part, beside the tumbling action, this was due to velocity. No this isn’t a typo, but the S4 left the handgun each time close to 2600 fps. More information can be found in the link. That is very impressive no doubt. Thank you, I never knew such a round was available for civilians any more. To be fair though, it should be compared to a 7.62x25 AP rd, not a normal FMJ. In any case the 5.7x28s AP capabilities have been proven to me. |
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- Mark Wilson did shoot the Tyler courthouse attacker repeatedly with his .45 ACP carry pistol. It had no effect and he was killed as a result.
The thing carries 16 rounds of 230gr .45ACP. Land three or four of those on some guy wearing soft body armor, and I'm pretty sure that you will knock him square on his ass. - LAPD police officers did shoot the North Hollywood bank robbers dozens of times with pistols and even shotguns. Neither had any effect and nearly 20 police officers and civilians were injured as a result. - At the start of a 25-minute San Francisco shootout, James Guelff of SFPD did shoot the attacker repeatedly with his revolver. It had no effect and he was killed as a result. The attacker went on to shoot several others. You can't run around worried about if you need to penetrate body armor or not in the off chance that you get stuck in a firefight. You can, and should. It's no different from adhering to the FBI 12-inch penetration standard.
And you have to accept the very real possibility that you can be completely outgunned and outmanned no matter what you are carrying. In the event that you end up fighting a rifle-wielding attacker and you are armed only with a Five-seveN pistol –– being outgunned is still preferable to being virtually defenseless, like the individuals I listed.
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http://www.hcfop39.org/ejournaliss1vol2.htm We placed two Level III vests in front of a car, and an additional vest over the front car seat... The first shot went all the way through the first vest, through the second vest, cleanly with no trajectory change through the windshield, through the front of the vest on the seat, through the front seat of the car, through the back of the vest, and we eventually dug it out from the rear of the back seat.
<snip> Simply to test car doors, we found what we expected at this point. From the side, it will go through one side of a car and out the other. <snip> Briefly, Elite Ammunition also makes personal protection cartridges in this caliber called S4, which we felt deserved testing in an abbreviated fashion while we had all the personnel and equipment present. These rounds also would penetrate one Level three Vest, and unlike the Devastator, the S4 was found to deform and tumble, shredding its way along. Exit holes were significantly larger than the Devastator. In large part, beside the tumbling action, this was due to velocity. No this isn’t a typo, but the S4 left the handgun each time close to 2600 fps. More information can be found in the link. That is very impressive no doubt. Thank you, I never knew such a round was available for civilians any more. To be fair though, it should be compared to a 7.62x25 AP rd, not a normal FMJ. In any case the 5.7x28s AP capabilities have been proven to me. Can civilians own "7.62x25 AP rds" and it it readily accessible? Also, I wasn't saying that you specifically were posting false information. Most 5.7 haters, however, have no hesitation to post complete lies about the 5.7. In a fair argument it's hard to put down the 5.7/FsN/PS90. |
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http://www.hcfop39.org/ejournaliss1vol2.htm We placed two Level III vests in front of a car, and an additional vest over the front car seat... The first shot went all the way through the first vest, through the second vest, cleanly with no trajectory change through the windshield, through the front of the vest on the seat, through the front seat of the car, through the back of the vest, and we eventually dug it out from the rear of the back seat.
<snip> Simply to test car doors, we found what we expected at this point. From the side, it will go through one side of a car and out the other. <snip> Briefly, Elite Ammunition also makes personal protection cartridges in this caliber called S4, which we felt deserved testing in an abbreviated fashion while we had all the personnel and equipment present. These rounds also would penetrate one Level three Vest, and unlike the Devastator, the S4 was found to deform and tumble, shredding its way along. Exit holes were significantly larger than the Devastator. In large part, beside the tumbling action, this was due to velocity. No this isn’t a typo, but the S4 left the handgun each time close to 2600 fps. More information can be found in the link. That is very impressive no doubt. Thank you, I never knew such a round was available for civilians any more. To be fair though, it should be compared to a 7.62x25 AP rd, not a normal FMJ. In any case the 5.7x28s AP capabilities have been proven to me. Can civilians own "7.62x25 AP rds" and it it readily accessible? Also, I wasn't saying that you specifically were posting false information. Most 5.7 haters, however, have no hesitation to post complete lies about the 5.7. In a fair argument it's hard to put down the 5.7/FsN/PS90. according to the link civilans can't own the EA devastators or S4 ammo either . I like the 5.7 but I find the link kind of a moot point . |
| How is it a moot point? This is kind of what I'm talking about. 5.7 naysayers will post anything to discredit the round but in a fair argument it's hard to do. EA's PenetraTOR is equivalent to SS190 and, to my knowledge, outperforms any 7.62x25 available to civilians. |
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How is it a moot point? This is kind of what I'm talking about. 5.7 naysayers will post anything to discredit the round but in a fair argument it's hard to do. EA's PenetraTOR is equivalent to SS190 and, to my knowledge, outperforms any 7.62x25 available to civilians. I was just basing it off of the link , in the link it said both rounds were not offered to the public (and it only talked about the penetration of the 2 rounds) . I quoted the post about 7.62x25 AP not being available to the general public ( I know where a good quantity is but he can't sell to the public ) . If the AP 5.7 rounds are avail , then its not a moot point . I dig the round but don't have the extra scratch for a gun in it . I do have a project single action revolver in it , I just need a decent barrel for the deal . I do have a CZ52 , but I'm not tring to show bias . |
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How is it a moot point? This is kind of what I'm talking about. 5.7 naysayers will post anything to discredit the round but in a fair argument it's hard to do. EA's PenetraTOR is equivalent to SS190 and, to my knowledge, outperforms any 7.62x25 available to civilians. I was just basing it off of the link , in the link it said both rounds were not offered to the public (and it only talked about the penetration of the 2 rounds) . The link only says that when discussing the penetration of the Devastator. The S4 has been offered to civilians for years. |
| With all the talk of going through armor, and how you need to be prepared....why not just practice more? If you practice more, you can shoot them in the head. Then you could get a gun with ammo that is easier to find and cheaper to shoot. I like the 5.7 as much as the next guy but don't try using a very few specific cases to justify it. All of the shooting you referenced could have also been stopped with a .25, 9mm, .38, .45 ect., if they had been hit in the head! |
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I just got the FNP45 Tac and it's a monster. $995 and you can either toss on a Burris FastFire II optic for $209 or spend $350 on a Trijicon/Docter and remain in the $1200ish price range. I already have a few other pistols in .45 ACP so I didn't need to worry about stockpiling for another caliber of ammo.
I'm still intrigued by the 5.7 and will probably get one "for my wife" at some point. If she is comfortable holding it then I can convince her she needs it. Funny, that works in the bedroom, too 
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If you practice more, you can shoot them in the head. Reality is not so simple. All of the shooting you referenced could have also been stopped with a .25, 9mm, .38, .45 ect., if they had been hit in the head!
The attackers in each of those incidents were hit repeatedly, but they were not hit in the head. Again, reality is not so simple. Your pistol of choice should be effective regardless of what an attacker is wearing. |
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If you practice more, you can shoot them in the head. Then you could get a gun with ammo that is easier to find and cheaper to shoot. I like the 5.7 as much as the next guy but don't try using a very few specific cases to justify it. All of the shooting you referenced could have also been stopped with a .25, 9mm, .38, .45 ect., if they had been hit in the head!  FAIL
Where to begin... First off, no one is just going to stand there and let you shoot them in the head. Second, even if they did, you will likely be too hopped up on adrenalin (and this is from someone whose job involves a daily dose of adrenalin) to make that shot anyways. Thirdly, have you ever seen anyone shot in the head with a .25. I have. Point blank to the face. Entered where the nostril meets the face, went around the maxilla and exited behind the ear. Guy was standing there waiting for us. Read more, post less. As you get it figured out, post more.
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Let's try not to turn this into a 5.7 bash thread if we can. It's not like either gun is going to be used for HD. I have a cheap, easily re-obtainable Glock for that. Keep that in mind when making your decision, this is purely a "sidearm" to a safe queen rifle. Something to drag out for the "odd" factor. Which both guns have going for them. Sup Yeager! Since you have your bases covered I say get the FiveseveN. It's a damn fun gun and would look sweet next to your PS90 and SCAR. 
ETA- And if I needed to use it to defend my life I'm sure it would do its job if I did mine. |
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Quoted: Quoted: - Mark Wilson did shoot the Tyler courthouse attacker repeatedly with his .45 ACP carry pistol. It had no effect and he was killed as a result.The thing carries 16 rounds of 230gr .45ACP. Land three or four of those on some guy wearing soft body armor, and I'm pretty sure that you will knock him square on his ass. - LAPD police officers did shoot the North Hollywood bank robbers dozens of times with pistols and even shotguns. Neither had any effect and nearly 20 police officers and civilians were injured as a result. - At the start of a 25-minute San Francisco shootout, James Guelff of SFPD did shoot the attacker repeatedly with his revolver. It had no effect and he was killed as a result. The attacker went on to shoot several others. You can't run around worried about if you need to penetrate body armor or not in the off chance that you get stuck in a firefight. You can, and should. It's no different from adhering to the FBI 12-inch penetration standard.And you have to accept the very real possibility that you can be completely outgunned and outmanned no matter what you are carrying. In the event that you end up fighting a rifle-wielding attacker and you are armed only with a Five-seveN pistol –– being outgunned is still preferable to being virtually defenseless, like the individuals I listed.All you are proving is that all handgun rounds are a compromise. We all already know that. 5.7x28 may not even be enough if the BG is wearing body armor. A hit in soft armor with .45ACP will break ribs and cause all sorts of other hell and pain. It will do everything but penetrate. Not implying that this is enough, but it will certainly get the assailant's attention. It's not like those you-tube videos of those yahoos shooting themselves in the gut with wadcutter .38's while wearing BA. If you are engaging a BG with plate armor, the best you can hope for with any pistol is to draw fire away, slow/distract the attacker, or get lucky with a shot to an exposed part. Your examples are appreciated but applied poorly. |
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All you are proving is that all handgun rounds are a compromise. We all already know that. Compromise or not, if you are faced with a rifle-wielding attacker that is wearing body armor, there is a dramatic difference between being: A . Outgunned, carrying a Five-seveN pistol. and.. B . Virtually defenseless, carrying a conventional pistol caliber. A hit in soft armor with .45ACP will break ribs and cause all sorts of other hell and pain.
No, it won't. Pain is an insignificant factor in a life or death situation. In fact, in such situations, pain often goes completely unnoticed. Here is one story of a soldier not even knowing his arm had been damaged beyond use by RPG shrapnel: http://www.stripes.com/news/i-had-so-much-adrenaline-pumping-i-didn-t-feel-anything-1.34584 After a third rocket-propelled grenade landed nearby, Nathan said, he grabbed his machine gun and scrambled back on top of the Humvee. When he tried to lift the gun, he realized that shrapnel had seriously damaged his left arm. “It was to the point where I couldn’t use it,” he said. “But I had so much adrenaline pumping I didn’t feel anything." It will do everything but penetrate.
Which is, to put it simply, nothing at all. The amount of energy transferred by handgun bullets is insignificant. Bullets wound by penetration, and short of penetration, they are absolutely ineffective. Not implying that this is enough, but it will certainly get the assailant's attention.
Whereupon the assailant will simply shoot back at you, and possibly injure or kill you. Again, as illustrated by the examples I listed: - LAPD officer James Zboravan shot one of the North Hollywood bank robbers with his 12 gauge shotgun at the very start of the shootout; the robber simply turned and shot him, and continued shooting other people for 44 minutes. - Mark Wilson shot the Tyler courthouse shooter several times with his .45 ACP carry pistol. The attacker turned his attention to Wilson, shot and killed him, and continued shooting others. - SFPD officer James Guelff shot his attacker repeatedly with his revolver. The attacker turned his attention to him, shot and killed him, and continued shooting others for 25 minutes. Your pistol should not (and need not) be a tool to "get the assailant's attention" and sacrifice your life in a "distraction." In that case, a paintball gun could be used to the same effect. 5.7x28 may not even be enough if the BG is wearing body armor.
Per independent testing, 5.7x28mm EA civilian loads from the pistol will penetrate virtually any type of protective vest, with or without a trauma plate included. |
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Quoted: Quoted: All you are proving is that all handgun rounds are a compromise. We all already know that. Compromise or not, if you are faced with a rifle-wielding attacker that is wearing body armor, there is a dramatic difference between being: A . Outgunned, carrying a Five-seveN pistol. and.. B . Virtually defenseless, carrying a conventional pistol caliber. A hit in soft armor with .45ACP will break ribs and cause all sorts of other hell and pain. No, it won't. Pain is an insignificant factor in a life or death situation. In fact, in such situations, pain often goes completely unnoticed. Here is one story of a soldier not even knowing his arm had been damaged beyond use by RPG shrapnel: http://www.stripes.com/news/i-had-so-much-adrenaline-pumping-i-didn-t-feel-anything-1.34584 After a third rocket-propelled grenade landed nearby, Nathan said, he grabbed his machine gun and scrambled back on top of the Humvee. When he tried to lift the gun, he realized that shrapnel had seriously damaged his left arm. "It was to the point where I couldn’t use it,” he said. "But I had so much adrenaline pumping I didn’t feel anything." It will do everything but penetrate. Which is, to put it simply, nothing at all. The amount of energy transferred by handgun bullets is insignificant. Bullets wound by penetration, and short of penetration, they are absolutely ineffective. Not implying that this is enough, but it will certainly get the assailant's attention. Whereupon the assailant will simply shoot back at you, and possibly injure or kill you. Again, as illustrated by the examples I listed: - LAPD officer James Zboravan shot one of the North Hollywood bank robbers with his 12 gauge shotgun at the very start of the shootout; the robber simply turned and shot him, and continued shooting other people for 44 minutes. - Mark Wilson shot the Tyler courthouse shooter several times with his .45 ACP carry pistol. The attacker turned his attention to Wilson, shot and killed him, and continued shooting others. - SFPD officer James Guelff shot his attacker repeatedly with his revolver. The attacker turned his attention to him, shot and killed him, and continued shooting others for 25 minutes. Your pistol should not (and need not) be a tool to "get the assailant's attention" and sacrifice your life in a "distraction." In that case, a paintball gun could be used to the same effect. 5.7x28 may not even be enough if the BG is wearing body armor. Per independent testing, 5.7x28mm EA civilian loads from the pistol will penetrate virtually any type of protective vest, with or without a trauma plate included. So are you saying that 5.7x28 is the only sufficient handgun round for dealing BG's wearing BA or not? North Hollywood shootout is a bad example imo. Two heavily armed badguys wearing head to toe and multiple layers of hard BA and cranked-up on drugs is a strange situation and not something that one person should try to engage. You sound as if you are approaching this type of engagement from a LEO's perspective. I am not. In mostly any case, armed individuals should be concentrating on getting out if possible and firing any sort of suppressive fire strategy is stupid and dangerous. However, an assailant in BA is not going to sit there with .45ACP bouncing off of him like superman, the "oh fuck, i'm getting shot" instinct kicks in, and they will move to take cover. And I stand by that .45acp hitting soft armor will hurt and will knock you around harder than I could knock you around with a pry bar. The criminal use of BA will rise. It has already become a major problem in mexico and is moving north. I would not be surprised to see even hard BA become fashion accessories in the future in our ghettos as a status symbol. This I think we can agree on, but in any event, I do not believe that the proper response is found in any handgun round, but rather in a wider application of carbines for both LEO and Civilian uses. Use the bigger hammer. I still do think that the N. Hollywood shootout is an aberration for a civilian engagement. Body armor or not, those guys had G3's and AK's. Again, handgun response is going to get you killed. To your point about people not even feeling hits, the first clue that a cranked-up attacker will have, BA or not, may very well be that his shoe is full of blood, during which time he is still in the fight. I guess my entire point is that any situation that would benefit the 5.7x28's AP properties is already likely a fight that was lost before it ever began. For mostly all situations, .45ACP is still king, and even in a losing situation is no slouch. And when it really comes down to it, it is all about two things.....shot placement and mindset. |
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Quoted:
<snip> However, an assailant in BA is not going to sit there with .45ACP bouncing off of him like superman, the "oh fuck, i'm getting shot" instinct kicks in, and they will move to take cover. And I stand by that .45acp hitting soft armor will hurt and will knock you around harder than I could knock you around with a pry bar. <snip> And when it really comes down to it, it is all about two things.....shot placement and mindset. Just to stir the pot, if the muzzle were placed directly against the armor, here are the forces the armor would have to absorb... Max in red, closest in green Muzzle energy of .45ACP
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Quoted:
So are you saying that 5.7x28 is the only sufficient handgun round for dealing BG's wearing BA or not? As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, rounds such as 7.62x25mm Tokarev will also work in some cases. However, 5.7x28mm has superior penetration ability and the Five-seveN platform itself is far superior to any pistols currently chambered in 7.62mm. North Hollywood shootout is a bad example imo. Two heavily armed badguys wearing head to toe and multiple layers of hard BA and cranked-up on drugs is a strange situation and not something that one person should try to engage.
It's a good example, because heavily armed or not, they were hit repeatedly at the start of the shootout. They were shot the moment they exited the bank, so they could have been stopped very quickly. However, an assailant in BA is not going to sit there with .45ACP bouncing off of him like superman, the "oh fuck, i'm getting shot" instinct kicks in, and they will move to take cover.
Again, reality disagrees. When Mark Wilson shot the Tyler courthouse shooter several times in the back with his .45 ACP 1911, Arroyo simply turned to him and advanced on him. Wilson took cover behind a truck, and shot Arroyo again in the chest. Arroyo advanced and killed Wilson behind the truck. To paraphrase: Arroyo did not "move to take cover" when shot several times with .45 ACP. He advanced and killed Wilson, and then continued shooting others. And I stand by that .45acp hitting soft armor will hurt and will knock you around harder than I could knock you around with a pry bar.
It's irrelevant either way. Pain is often not perceived at all in such a situation, even without use of alcohol or narcotics. As for knocking a person around, a bullet's energy deposit is roughly equivalent to that of a pitched baseball. See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf I still do think that the N. Hollywood shootout is an aberration for a civilian engagement. Body armor or not, those guys had G3's and AK's. Again, handgun response is going to get you killed.
Their weaponry is a moot point, because they were shot several times at the very start of the engagement. The same goes for the attackers in the other incidents I listed. I guess my entire point is that any situation that would benefit the 5.7x28's AP properties is already likely a fight that was lost before it ever began.
Not at all. Again, in all of the cases I listed, hits were scored on the attackers almost immediately. Body armor was the only factor that allowed the attackers to continue shooting people. |
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Quoted:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Just to stir the pot, if the muzzle were placed directly against the armor, here are the forces the armor would have to absorb... Bullets wound by penetration, not energy transfer. Barring penetration of the body, a bullet is ineffective because its energy transfer is similar to that of a pitched baseball. As for penetration of soft body armor, that is largely dependent on (high) velocity and bullet construction. |
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Short of a brain or spine hit a determined attacker can most likely still inflict damage no matter what they are shot with.
I have seen multiple people shot in the neck and face and they not only lived but were also very mobile. Sure it's hard to make head shots when adrenaline is running but that's why I shoot regularly. It comes down to skill and luck and luck favors the prepared. Beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So are you saying that 5.7x28 is the only sufficient handgun round for dealing BG's wearing BA or not? As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, rounds such as 7.62x25mm Tokarev will also work in some cases. However, 5.7x28mm has superior penetration ability and the Five-seveN platform itself is far superior to any pistols currently chambered in 7.62mm. North Hollywood shootout is a bad example imo. Two heavily armed badguys wearing head to toe and multiple layers of hard BA and cranked-up on drugs is a strange situation and not something that one person should try to engage. It's a good example, because heavily armed or not, they were hit repeatedly at the start of the shootout. They were shot the moment they exited the bank, so they could have been stopped very quickly. However, an assailant in BA is not going to sit there with .45ACP bouncing off of him like superman, the "oh fuck, i'm getting shot" instinct kicks in, and they will move to take cover. Again, reality disagrees. When Mark Wilson shot the Tyler courthouse shooter several times in the back with his .45 ACP 1911, Arroyo simply turned to him and advanced on him. Wilson took cover behind a truck, and shot Arroyo again in the chest. Arroyo advanced and killed Wilson behind the truck. To paraphrase: Arroyo did not "move to take cover" when shot several times with .45 ACP. He advanced and killed Wilson, and then continued shooting others. And I stand by that .45acp hitting soft armor will hurt and will knock you around harder than I could knock you around with a pry bar. It's irrelevant either way. Pain is often not perceived at all in such a situation, even without use of alcohol or narcotics. As for knocking a person around, a bullet's energy deposit is roughly equivalent to that of a pitched baseball. See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf I still do think that the N. Hollywood shootout is an aberration for a civilian engagement. Body armor or not, those guys had G3's and AK's. Again, handgun response is going to get you killed. Their weaponry is a moot point, because they were shot several times at the very start of the engagement. The same goes for the attackers in the other incidents I listed. I guess my entire point is that any situation that would benefit the 5.7x28's AP properties is already likely a fight that was lost before it ever began. Not at all. Again, in all of the cases I listed, hits were scored on the attackers almost immediately. Body armor was the only factor that allowed the attackers to continue shooting people. How is their weaponry a moot point? A bunch of beat cops with service pistols shouldn't be engaging bank robbers carrying assault rifles and known to be wearing full BA. The N. Hollywood robbery was the last in a string of robberies where the BG's were clearly wrapped-up. Everyone with a badge had this intelligence and another heist was expected. You are first on the scene and the Sargent tells you to go shoot the guy dressed up like a cosmonaut with a G3 with your 92FS. Yeah, fuck that, sick day Sarge, think it's the blueflu. Duty and bravery does not include walking into a meatgrinder. This is a long guns vs sidearm argument, nothing to do with BA. You keep repeating that pain does not register. Which I agree. 5.7x28mm getting through BA is not going to change this conclusion. Unless you manage to hit the heart, spine, or aorta directly, the BG is not registering the injury until he realizes that his shoe is full of blood. He wont last long, but probably long enough to return fire and kill as you had pointed out. Conclusion: penetration with 5.7mm does not support argument that the outcome would have changed your examples. I'll repeat that my remaining issue with the examples presented is that 5.7x28 would have changed the outcome. BA does not make the target impervious. The officers reacted with their training, which meant COM hits immediately returned with service pistols. The lesson to be learned here is that future responses and training may need to include disengage from threat and reengage with long arms, rather than put faith in 5.7x28mm. Additionally, JHP rounds and penetration rounds are totally different things. It is a good round, no doubt. But for civilians especially, AP ammo is not viable and should be the moot point. For civilian and LEO use 5.7x28mm in any flavor is not viable for most threats. The guy that was still walking was just plain determined and already was convinced that he wouldn't live. He was literally the walking dead. Any assailant expecting or looking to come out of a fight alive is going to be deterred and overwhelmed once they start taking hits because they know that the BA does not cover everything, and they know that the next round can sneak by into their throat, scroat, or brain. (not advocating taking headshots here, but a COM aimed shot will often hit exposed areas when firing rapidly.) As a civilian with only two hands, I can only realistically carry one gun at a time for ALL threats. For HD, I'll accept that the BG may be wearing BA. To consider that, I'm responding with an AR carbine anyways. For CCW/SD, again, I can only carry one. I could carry a FiveSeveN, but it is impractical for unarmored targets, and conclusively even armored targets. .45ACP has a proven record on soft targets, which make up the majority of threats. Street muggers are NOT wearing BA. Home invaders may very well be wearing it. Are you just arguing with me or are you trying to make a point that 5.7x28mm is a magical bullet? |
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Quoted: Quoted: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdfJust to stir the pot, if the muzzle were placed directly against the armor, here are the forces the armor would have to absorb... Bullets wound by penetration, not energy transfer. Barring penetration of the body, a bullet is ineffective because its energy transfer is similar to that of a pitched baseball. As for penetration of soft body armor, that is largely dependent on (high) velocity and bullet construction. My final point to this mess is that since AP 5.7x28mm is not readily available, nor are the 3rd party loadings proven, that the entire premise that 5.7x28mm has any advantage whatsoever is effectively a moot point. |
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Quoted:
How is their weaponry a moot point? Read my post. Quote: "Their weaponry is a moot point because they were shot several times at the very start of the engagement." It doesn't matter what weapons they were carrying –– in all of these incidents the attackers were shot repeatedly as soon as the engagements began. The incidents should have (and could have) ended then and there. Body armor is the only reason they did not. You keep repeating that pain does not register. Which I agree. 5.7x28mm getting through BA is not going to change this conclusion.
Bullets do not incapacitate by causing pain, nor should you expect them to. A penetrating projectile damages the body, and if it takes the correct path, will stop an attacker immediately. Even short of a hit to a vital area, in some cases the bullet's penetration may stop the attacker with a wound that is otherwise not life-threatening, such as a broken leg or arm, collapsed lung, etc. The lesson to be learned here is that future responses and training may need to include disengage from threat and reengage with long arms, rather than put faith in 5.7x28mm
No, the lesson to be learned is that pistols should retain their performance regardless of what the target is wearing. Rifles are not always available (as they obviously were not in these cases), and rifles should not have been needed anyway because hits were scored repeatedly with pistols as soon as these shootings started. Additionally, JHP rounds and penetration rounds are totally different things. It is a good round, no doubt. But for civilians especially, AP ammo is not viable and should be the moot point.
A spitzer bullet such as 5.7x28mm will tumble regardless of its composition. Expansion and tumbling may be two different things, but they both create enlarged wounds. For civilian and LEO use 5.7x28mm in any flavor is not viable for most threats.
It is every bit as viable as any of the common pistol calibers. A hit to vital areas with 5.7x28mm will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. In the same manner, a hit to vital areas with 9mm or .45 ACP will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. The guy that was still walking was just plain determined and already was convinced that he wouldn't live. He was literally the walking dead.
You just described virtually any attacker you are ever likely to have to shoot in self defense. Any assailant expecting or looking to come out of a fight alive is going to be deterred and overwhelmed once they start taking hits because they know that the BA does not cover everything, and they know that the next round can sneak by into their throat, scroat, or brain. (not advocating taking headshots here, but a COM aimed shot will often hit exposed areas when firing rapidly.)
This entire statement is pure fantasy. Look at the actual cases. Reality disagrees with you on all points. Specifically, in reality, none of these assailants were actually "overwhelmed" or even "deterred" by the bruises being inflicted on them by 9mm or .45 ACP pistols, or even 12 gauge shotguns. And in reality, COM aimed shots did not "often hit exposed areas" (in fact, they never did) even in the case where dozens of police officers were firing on the attackers. For CCW/SD, again, I can only carry one. I could carry a FiveSeveN, but it is impractical for unarmored targets, and conclusively even armored targets.
There is nothing that would make it an impractical choice for either armored or unarmored targets. It performs as well on unarmored targets as any common pistol caliber, except it retains that performance regardless of what the target is wearing. You know LEO wears body armor too right? How many of them sit there under fire taking hits to the chest like Superman? Even better, maybe one of our LEO or soldiers who have been hit wearing soft or hard armor would be nice enough to recount their experience. I'm 100% certain that their first though and reaction was not "HA HA I'M WEARING BODY ARMOR!" but rather, "Oh fuck I'm hit" and then take cover only to find to their relief after a few seconds that the BA stopped the round.
Again, there is no need to guess. Look at the actual cases I listed. Your speculation does not match up with reality. Only massive blood loss or CNS damage is going to stop that, and that is something that a 5.7mm is not yet proven to do any better than any other round.
It performs as well as any other pistol caliber. That is good enough. It fires a penetrating projectile that meets the FBI standard, and it retains said performance regardless of what the target is wearing. On the side, the Five-seveN also happens to be an extremely effective platform. It is lightweight, with low recoil and extremely high magazine capacity. My final point to this mess is that since AP 5.7x28mm is not readily available, nor are the 3rd party loadings proven
If you are referring to armor penetration, read the thread you're posting in. Specifically, the first page. EA's 5.7x28mm civilian loads, via independent testing, have been shown to penetrate virtually any type of body armor. If you are referring to terminal effectiveness, look at any verifiable case where a person was shot with 5.7x28mm factory loadings. Then consider that, compared to FN's 5.7x28mm factory loadings, EA's civilian 5.7x28mm loadings push much heavier bullets at higher velocities, again, as independently tested. There is nothing left to prove. |
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Quoted: Ah, another morning, another pointed response.Quoted: How is their weaponry a moot point? Read my post. Quote: "Their weaponry is a moot point because they were shot several times at the very start of the engagement." It doesn't matter what weapons they were carrying –– in all of these incidents the attackers were shot repeatedly as soon as the engagements began. The incidents should have (and could have) ended then and there. Body armor is the only reason they did not. You keep repeating that pain does not register. Which I agree. 5.7x28mm getting through BA is not going to change this conclusion. Bullets do not incapacitate by causing pain, nor should you expect them to. A penetrating projectile damages the body, and if it takes the correct path, will stop an attacker immediately. Even short of a hit to a vital area, in some cases the bullet's penetration may stop the attacker with a wound that is otherwise not life-threatening, such as a broken leg or arm, collapsed lung, etc. The lesson to be learned here is that future responses and training may need to include disengage from threat and reengage with long arms, rather than put faith in 5.7x28mm No, the lesson to be learned is that pistols should retain their performance regardless of what the target is wearing. Rifles are not always available (as they obviously were not in these cases), and rifles should not have been needed anyway because hits were scored repeatedly with pistols as soon as these shootings started. Additionally, JHP rounds and penetration rounds are totally different things. It is a good round, no doubt. But for civilians especially, AP ammo is not viable and should be the moot point. A spitzer bullet such as 5.7x28mm will tumble regardless of its composition. Expansion and tumbling may be two different things, but they both create enlarged wounds. For civilian and LEO use 5.7x28mm in any flavor is not viable for most threats. It is every bit as viable as any of the common pistol calibers. A hit to vital areas with 5.7x28mm will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. In the same manner, a hit to vital areas with 9mm or .45 ACP will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. The guy that was still walking was just plain determined and already was convinced that he wouldn't live. He was literally the walking dead. You just described virtually any attacker you are ever likely to have to shoot in self defense. Any assailant expecting or looking to come out of a fight alive is going to be deterred and overwhelmed once they start taking hits because they know that the BA does not cover everything, and they know that the next round can sneak by into their throat, scroat, or brain. (not advocating taking headshots here, but a COM aimed shot will often hit exposed areas when firing rapidly.) This entire statement is pure fantasy. Look at the actual cases. Reality disagrees with you on all points. Specifically, in reality, none of these assailants were actually "overwhelmed" or even "deterred" by the bruises being inflicted on them by 9mm or .45 ACP pistols, or even 12 gauge shotguns. And in reality, COM aimed shots did not "often hit exposed areas" (in fact, they never did) even in the case where dozens of police officers were firing on the attackers. For CCW/SD, again, I can only carry one. I could carry a FiveSeveN, but it is impractical for unarmored targets, and conclusively even armored targets. There is nothing that would make it an impractical choice for either armored or unarmored targets. It performs as well on unarmored targets as any common pistol caliber, except it retains that performance regardless of what the target is wearing. You know LEO wears body armor too right? How many of them sit there under fire taking hits to the chest like Superman? Even better, maybe one of our LEO or soldiers who have been hit wearing soft or hard armor would be nice enough to recount their experience. I'm 100% certain that their first though and reaction was not "HA HA I'M WEARING BODY ARMOR!" but rather, "Oh fuck I'm hit" and then take cover only to find to their relief after a few seconds that the BA stopped the round. Again, there is no need to guess. Look at the actual cases I listed. Your speculation does not match up with reality. Only massive blood loss or CNS damage is going to stop that, and that is something that a 5.7mm is not yet proven to do any better than any other round. It performs as well as any other pistol caliber. That is good enough. It fires a penetrating projectile that meets the FBI standard, and it retains said performance regardless of what the target is wearing. On the side, the Five-seveN also happens to be an extremely effective platform. It is lightweight, with low recoil and extremely high magazine capacity. My final point to this mess is that since AP 5.7x28mm is not readily available, nor are the 3rd party loadings proven If you are referring to armor penetration, read the thread you're posting in. Specifically, the first page. EA's 5.7x28mm civilian loads, via independent testing, have been shown to penetrate virtually any type of body armor. If you are referring to terminal effectiveness, look at any verifiable case where a person was shot with 5.7x28mm factory loadings. Then consider that, compared to FN's 5.7x28mm factory loadings, EA's civilian 5.7x28mm loadings push much heavier bullets at higher velocities, again, as independently tested. There is nothing left to prove. You are getting hung-up on my original statements about the wounding potential of non-penetrating rounds. The original statement was partially hyperbole, but I stand by the intent. You are blinded by putting too much faith in 1. bulletproof vests, and 2. AP rounds, specifically 5.7x28mm. Again, BA does not cover everything, and the person wearing it knows that. A round stopped by BA is only inches away from getting through. The ability to ignore impacts is rare and largely luck. You refer to independent testing of the 5.7x28mm terminal effectiveness..... I am probably no more qualified than you to interpret any independent testing, but it would be interesting to actually see any if it exists. There are a lot more case studies where .45ACP, .40S&W, 9mm, etc absolutely wins. I still cannot buy FN's factory loaded AP 5.7x28mm loads, so until I can, the entire point of it is still moot. Your suggestion of buying EA's ammo is not convincing either. They are a niche manufactuer relying only on their word. They go out of business tomorrow, I'm up the creek with AP rounds. No thanks. And again, 5.7x28mm from a handgun even in AP form may not penetrate hard armor like the N. Hollywood guys. Please keep in mind that after the N. Hollywood shootout, the response that the police had was to step up to carbines in patrol cars rather than enhance pistol ammo as was done after the big FBI shootout in the early 80's in florida. This had been adopted nearly nationwide since then. This was due partly to the body armor, but also due to the BG's using rifles themselves. You don't go into a gunfight with a knife, and you don't go into a rifle fight with a handgun. You keep going around and around on a handful of cases where the assailant in BA had come out on top. This does not determine if the BA was really a tactical advantage or not since there were other factors involved. I can't help to determine that you are trying to justify 5.7x28mm for yourself. Seriously, how many other folks and agencies are using the FiveSeveN as a sidearm? The solution has been patrol rifles and specialized training, not fancypants bullets from EA. |
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Quoted: Quoted: How is their weaponry a moot point? Read my post. Quote: "Their weaponry is a moot point because they were shot several times at the very start of the engagement." It doesn't matter what weapons they were carrying –– in all of these incidents the attackers were shot repeatedly as soon as the engagements began. The incidents should have (and could have) ended then and there. Body armor is the only reason they did not. You keep repeating that pain does not register. Which I agree. 5.7x28mm getting through BA is not going to change this conclusion. Bullets do not incapacitate by causing pain, nor should you expect them to. A penetrating projectile damages the body, and if it takes the correct path, will stop an attacker immediately. Even short of a hit to a vital area, in some cases the bullet's penetration may stop the attacker with a wound that is otherwise not life-threatening, such as a broken leg or arm, collapsed lung, etc. The lesson to be learned here is that future responses and training may need to include disengage from threat and reengage with long arms, rather than put faith in 5.7x28mm No, the lesson to be learned is that pistols should retain their performance regardless of what the target is wearing. Rifles are not always available (as they obviously were not in these cases), and rifles should not have been needed anyway because hits were scored repeatedly with pistols as soon as these shootings started. Additionally, JHP rounds and penetration rounds are totally different things. It is a good round, no doubt. But for civilians especially, AP ammo is not viable and should be the moot point. A spitzer bullet such as 5.7x28mm will tumble regardless of its composition. Expansion and tumbling may be two different things, but they both create enlarged wounds. For civilian and LEO use 5.7x28mm in any flavor is not viable for most threats. It is every bit as viable as any of the common pistol calibers. A hit to vital areas with 5.7x28mm will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. In the same manner, a hit to vital areas with 9mm or .45 ACP will be immediately disabling, while a hit to non-vital areas often will not be immediately disabling. The guy that was still walking was just plain determined and already was convinced that he wouldn't live. He was literally the walking dead. You just described virtually any attacker you are ever likely to have to shoot in self defense. Any assailant expecting or looking to come out of a fight alive is going to be deterred and overwhelmed once they start taking hits because they know that the BA does not cover everything, and they know that the next round can sneak by into their throat, scroat, or brain. (not advocating taking headshots here, but a COM aimed shot will often hit exposed areas when firing rapidly.) This entire statement is pure fantasy. Look at the actual cases. Reality disagrees with you on all points. Specifically, in reality, none of these assailants were actually "overwhelmed" or even "deterred" by the bruises being inflicted on them by 9mm or .45 ACP pistols, or even 12 gauge shotguns. And in reality, COM aimed shots did not "often hit exposed areas" (in fact, they never did) even in the case where dozens of police officers were firing on the attackers. For CCW/SD, again, I can only carry one. I could carry a FiveSeveN, but it is impractical for unarmored targets, and conclusively even armored targets. There is nothing that would make it an impractical choice for either armored or unarmored targets. It performs as well on unarmored targets as any common pistol caliber, except it retains that performance regardless of what the target is wearing. You know LEO wears body armor too right? How many of them sit there under fire taking hits to the chest like Superman? Even better, maybe one of our LEO or soldiers who have been hit wearing soft or hard armor would be nice enough to recount their experience. I'm 100% certain that their first though and reaction was not "HA HA I'M WEARING BODY ARMOR!" but rather, "Oh fuck I'm hit" and then take cover only to find to their relief after a few seconds that the BA stopped the round. Again, there is no need to guess. Look at the actual cases I listed. Your speculation does not match up with reality. Only massive blood loss or CNS damage is going to stop that, and that is something that a 5.7mm is not yet proven to do any better than any other round. It performs as well as any other pistol caliber. That is good enough. It fires a penetrating projectile that meets the FBI standard, and it retains said performance regardless of what the target is wearing. On the side, the Five-seveN also happens to be an extremely effective platform. It is lightweight, with low recoil and extremely high magazine capacity. My final point to this mess is that since AP 5.7x28mm is not readily available, nor are the 3rd party loadings proven If you are referring to armor penetration, read the thread you're posting in. Specifically, the first page. EA's 5.7x28mm civilian loads, via independent testing, have been shown to penetrate virtually any type of body armor. If you are referring to terminal effectiveness, look at any verifiable case where a person was shot with 5.7x28mm factory loadings. Then consider that, compared to FN's 5.7x28mm factory loadings, EA's civilian 5.7x28mm loadings push much heavier bullets at higher velocities, again, as independently tested. There is nothing left to prove. EA rounds are out of stock every time that I have visited their page, and not all of them are spitzer rounds. PenetraTOR Tac Op is. Do they even sell that one to civies? EA has restrictions as well. Not sure I would put too much faith in these guys to keep me supplied. Not questioning their product, just need a larger, more established company for my ammo needs, and I imagine, for others as well. Maybe this is the reason that there are no LEO depts issuing the FiveSeveN. Do any even allow them as a discretional item?
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Quoted:
You are blinded by putting too much faith in 1. bulletproof vests, There is no faith to it. I am looking at actual experiences involving body armor, and in every incident I listed, body armor unquestionably enabled the attackers to continue a shooting rampage, killing or injuring others. If you include cases where body armor was utilized by law enforcement officers, then the list of examples goes on forever. It's simple: bullets wound by penetration of the body, therefore they are ineffective without penetration. Bruises are insignificant in a shooting. Again, BA does not cover everything,
The North Hollywood shooters did have virtually their entire bodies covered with body armor. Either way, reality is not so simple as "shoot for the head" –– the actual cases demonstrate this. A round stopped by BA is only inches away from getting through. The ability to ignore impacts is rare and largely luck.
This is fantasy. Look at any of the actual cases, or even any body armor testing. You refer to independent testing of the 5.7x28mm terminal effectiveness..... I am probably no more qualified than you to interpret any independent testing, but it would be interesting to actually see any if it exists. There are a lot more case studies where .45ACP, .40S&W, 9mm, etc absolutely wins.
Even .22 WMR from a rifle is capable of penetrating 9.1 inches and expanding to .48 inches: http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm This is actually quite similar to a 9mm hollow-point bullet from a pistol. And compared to the cartridge in the link, EA's 5.7x28mm civilian cartridges (from the pistol barrel) are pushing heavier bullets at higher velocities, again, as independently chronographed. I still cannot buy FN's factory loaded AP 5.7x28mm loads, so until I can, the entire point of it is still moot.
Any of EA's 5.7x28mm civilian loads perform better than the SS190. They are a niche manufactuer relying only on their word.
Their velocity figures were independently verified in a recent article by Combat Handguns. A number of other independent sources have also verified their numbers. And again, 5.7x28mm from a handgun even in AP form may not penetrate hard armor like the N. Hollywood guys.
Read the article linked on the first page. 5.7x28mm penetrates Level III body armor with or without LEO ammunition. This does not determine if the BA was really a tactical advantage or not since there were other factors involved.
The other factors are irrelevant; hits were scored on the attackers as soon as the incidents started. Body armor is the only reason these incidents didn't end as quickly as they started. Seriously, how many other folks and agencies are using the FiveSeveN as a sidearm? The solution has been patrol rifles and specialized training, not fancypants bullets from EA.
As of 2009, the Five-seveN is in use in 43 countries. It's also used in various roles by over 300 law enforcement agencies in the United States. A patrol rifle is not a suitable solution to body armor. A rifle isn't carried on your person. In the cases I listed a patrol rifle would not have been an option at all for SFPD officer James Guelff, and obviously not for CCW holder Mark Wilson. It may have been an option in the North Hollywood shootout, but even in that case a handgun would have been more readily accessible and could have stopped the attackers as soon as they left the bank. Again, hits were scored on them immediately –– with both handguns and shotguns. |
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Quoted:
not all of them are spitzer rounds. PenetraTOR Tac Op is. A spitzer bullet is a pointed bullet, so all of their cartridges do use spitzer bullets. Any of their cartridges that aren't designed to expand will tumble instead –– as is normal for spitzer bullets. Any of the ammo types offered by EA will perform better on body armor than the SS190. The bullet tested in the preceding article (the civilian EA S4, that penetrated a single Level III vest) is actually not even an FMJ bullet, but a hollow-point. Do they even sell that one to civies? EA has restrictions as well.
Yes. Note the LEO ammunition section on their website. Everything listed on the main page is offered to civilians. Maybe this is the reason that there are no LEO depts issuing the FiveSeveN. Do any even allow them as a discretional item?
See above post. |
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Quoted: Quoted: not all of them are spitzer rounds. PenetraTOR Tac Op is. A spitzer bullet is a pointed bullet, so all of their cartridges do use spitzer bullets. Any of their cartridges that aren't designed to expand will tumble instead –– as is normal for spitzer bullets. Any of the ammo types offered by EA will perform better on body armor than the SS190. The bullet tested in the preceding article (the civilian EA S4, that penetrated a single Level III vest) is actually not even an FMJ bullet, but a hollow-point. Do they even sell that one to civies? EA has restrictions as well. Yes. Note the LEO ammunition section on their website. Everything listed on the main page is offered to civilians. Maybe this is the reason that there are no LEO depts issuing the FiveSeveN. Do any even allow them as a discretional item? See above post. EA is once again either backordered or out of stock on the majority of their products. A niche manufacturing company is not a viable solution. EA is small beans. Far too small to matter. They couldn't handle even a modest order from a decent sized dept. Sorry but you are either trying to justify your ownership of a 5.7x28mm firearm or you have an interest in the company. I can't fault you as your argument has been intelligent, thoughtful, and organized, but your solution to the availability of useful ammo is not a solution. If this round was the he-man final solution that you claim it to be, I'd be out tonight trading a .45 in on a FiveSeveN. In the end, 5.7x28mm is about half the hype and steam that the flechette round was in the 60's and 80's. It does have value, but not as a replacement to other effective rounds. Just because they have products that are "LEO Only" does not mean that LE Depts are buying them, or buying them for issue. (or that anything more than a prototype batch even exists!) "see above post" answers nothing in the "above" post. |