Posted: 9/10/2008 4:30:16 PM EDT
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I'm in a bit of a dilemma: one of my friends is looking to purchase his first 1911. He's budgeted approximately $700 for this purpose. Unfortunately, since he's also new to CCW, some of that money will be required to go for the start-up costs involved with that--holster, magazines and magazine holders, hopefully a belt, etc. So here's my question: given the above parameters, what advice should I pass on to him regarding 1911s? (I'm largely unfamiliar with them myself.) Which manufacturers should he look at, and which should he steer clear of? Much thanks. |
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The advice is simple: save more. Some will jump to either side of the debate about a quality, carry-worthy, NIB production pistol in the $700 range, but when you have only $700 to allocate for leather, mags, and all other expenses, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel, or short-changing yourself dearly in the mag/holster/other departments. As a rule of thumb, a functional 1911 with basic carry features that has a decent reputation will easily cost somewhere between $700-$1,000 with tax. Quality magazines cost $20-$30 per magazine. a minimum of 10 is suggested, an absolute minimum of 4-6 is required (gun mag + 1-2 spares, and a rotation set). Bear in mind than many production pistols come with shit mag(s). Quality leather is at least $100 and an ammo carrier is another $20-$50 Decent defensive ammunition is about $30 per box of 20 and you need at least 2 boxes (not counting the test box to figure out how the ammo performs in your weapon) The initial range session(s) should be at least 500 rounds put down range in one big or 2-3 medium sessions before trusting the weapon for carry. WWB costs a little more than $30/100 1911: $700+ 4 Mags: $80+ Decent leather/carrier: $125 Defense Ammo: $90 Range ammo: $150 Cleaning kit + accessories: $25 Total for a bare bones carry setup that you have actually tested before using: $1,170 MINIMUM There are some shortcuts (buying quality used, buddying up w a guy who reloads, etc) but this should be a minimal expectation for a carry 1911 setup. |
Thanks for your reply. Ignoring the ammo costs (which he'll fund out of pocket) and the cleaning kit (since he's got those)... Focusing on just the 1911/mags--what do you mean by quality-used? Specific brands, or certain things to look for? Which brand(s) of magazines would you reccommend? As for the holster--I agree with you; he needs decent leather, and he's going to need to save more to buy it. I guess please focus on the 1911 and mags, and I'll tell him to get working to save more $$. |
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Just FYI... I own quite a few 1911s (Kimber, Nighthawk, Springfield and even SIG). I was originally of the thought that if it wasn't $1000+, it wasn't any good. I own a Springfield GI1911A1, which was purchased used (perfect cond.) for less than $400. I contacted Springfield to have some work done to it (sights, Gripsafety, trigger job...etc.) and was told it would run in excess of $700+. Being that I already have a few, I figured that it wasn't cost-effective to spend that kind of money to upgrade the pistol. I went to pick it up from my gun shop and spoke with the smith there who showed me the Taurus PT1911 (.45ACP). I have never owned a Taurus before and was a bit skeptical, but decided to 'go for it'. I bought the pistol and immediately detail stripped it before going to the range. -First Impression....WOW! This pistol has all the 'high end' features of a 1911 that costs from $800 to $2000+ dollars. Adjustable Heinie Straight Eight sights, Extended Beavertail, Trigger Job (<4lbs), Ambidextrous Thumb Safety, Front and rear cocking serrations and a full-length guide rod. Link to info about the PT1911: http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=59&category=Pistol I put about 650 rounds through it the first time I took it to the range and NOT A SINGLE FTF, FTE, or malfunction of ANY kind. I fed it Lawman, PMC, Hydra Shok, JHP, Federal and almost every other commercially available ammunition I could find. I am now about 2000-2100 rounds through it and have YET to have ANY problems whatsoever. The BEST part? It cost less than $550 NIB. As a 1911 fan, I would DEFINITELY recommend the Taurus PT1911 to a new shooter wanting to learn the 1911 platform. It is a Series 80 design so it has a firing pin block for added safety and with all the 'upgrades' it is hard to beat for the price. Each one is (according to Taurus) hand-made and custom fitted and I believe it. There is NO PLAY between the slide and frame whatsoever. This 'Cheap' pistol is better slide-to-frame fit than all 3 of my Springfields (GI, Operator, and Mil-SPec). Overall as much as I hate to say it, the PT1911 is a GREAT GUN for the PRICE. Shoots GREAT, functions flawlessly and if purchased NIB, comes with the Taurus LIFETIME warranty. I don't work for Taurus and am not (previously) a big fan of their pistols, but I must say that whatever they did when they decided to build the new PT1911s, they got it right. Hope this helps, good luck and good shooting. |
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Taurus PT1911s fall apart at an alarming rate. I sent too many back for customers to recommend them to anyone except someone I plan on getting in a gunfight with. Moving on... I don't think it is as drastic as pulpsmack made it out to be, but I would not be comfortable with your friend spending only $700. I recommend he start with another, less expensive pistol. |
+1 There been a large number of problematic reports after the pistols had been relased for some time (balancing out a lot of the initial raves for them), but the biggest problem is that Taurus has the worst customer service in the business. For that reason alone, they're not worth it.
Like I said, you can try some shortcuts with the used market, and in some other places, but but the numbers I laid out are rather conservative for a quality NIB setup. Cut corners on mags, the gun, or the leather and you'll merely be buying a second time. Reputable 1911s with decent warranty/service, good sights, and other carry features are not cheap. It is also common practice for most of us to put at least 500 FMJ and some carry JHP through any weapon we buy before trusting our lives. As for mags, I recommend Wilson Combat magazines. They are among the best magazines out there, but they are costly. All my 1911s run on Wilsons. CMC powermags are a cheaper alternative (avoid shooting stars). Others like Tripps. As for quality used, I would look at Springfields and Colts that have not have been molested internally. |
I thought $300 was too much for range ammo. I reload and haven't bought factory 45 in a while. I just checked. Ouch... |
Well, swimming somewhat against the tide here (as usual  ), I think a $700 budget isn't hard to supply. I offer the following:1) Springfield Armory 1911 mil-spec model: $500+/- 2) Blade-Tech belt holster: $65 ($75 if you want carbon fiber  )3) Chip McCormick 8rd mags: $15 each 4) Good quality leather gun belt: $75 (A "wilderness" type belt will do in a pinch for $30-35 or so.) Now, will the mil-spec be good to go for CCW? Maybe not right off the bat, but with 200-300rds of break-in to establish a track record of reliability, why not? 3-dot sights are quite serviceable for CCW, IMO. The sharp edges on the gun are perhaps the only immediate drawback. While we debate ad naseum the merits of Colt vs Springfield vs Kimber, *I* would skip the following brands of 1911: Auto Ordnance, Essex & Taurus. There'll be a gazillion options on what to get with 1911s, which is why we love them so. |
I wouldn't want to CCW a gun as sharp as the Mil-Spec. And I wouldn't go for $15 1911 mags. But that's just me. |
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From what I've seen and read, a 1911 is the wrong pistol to CCW if you're not going to spend $1,000 on it. And, truly, that number has went up. More like, $1,300. I don't know what the deal is with Springfield turning out $400-500 pistols with sloppy triggers and sloppy fitting. My friend bought a GI and the trigger must be 12lbs. The pistol doesn't shoot minute of open fist off a rest at 25 yards unless you use reloads. I've read about several instances of this on 1911.org. Occasionally, a GI reputedly shot really well and, precision wise, out-grouped $2,000 semi-customs, but that tends to be more useful for target shooting than CCW. And it seems, for production pistols, if you don't get Springfield, then you get cheaper metal and/or less reliability. At least Springfield has all forged slides/frames and excellent customer service. I wouldn't even bother with a sub $1,000 1911 unless I bought used, and why spend that much on something that is used?  Buy a Baby Eagle 45 ACP instead. You're way more likely to get a smoother trigger and the weight of the pistol makes the recoil comparable to a good steel 1911. Its also in the $500-$700 range. You could always roll the dice and buy a $400-$700 1911, but I've read about some loaded models with some pretty sloppy triggers that were worse than their GI. If its "within spec.", you're not going to get it fixed for free either, and will be out more money trying to get it to be what you should have bought from the beginning.(I own two TRP 1911s and two Baby Eagles and I say, for the money, the Baby Eagles get more praise). |
This might be an option worth considering - closest thing would be an XD45 with Thumb Safety. Quality magazines ARE important - CMC are the cheapest I'd go with, Wilson are probably worth the money down the road. Any magazines that would be included in affordable 1911's are utter crap, for range use only. If money flow is only a partial issue, consider buying only the pistol, and magazines up front, then send later funds to necessary CCW, and ammunition to get it groomed for carry. |
My $699 Kimber Custom II has a very nice trigger, is accurate, and 100% reliable. But I've spent much more than that on mags, ammo, holsters, etc. Baby Eagles?  Difficult to disengage/counterintuitive safety... and HEAVY.And they are just CZ-75/CZ-97 copies anyway. |
Kimber has a pretty horrible reputation nowadays though. Maybe you got an older one?
And a 1911 isn't heavy? My 45 ACP has almost the same recoil as my 9mm 92f - a small child could handle it.  I weigh only 130lbs and I CCW'ed it before I bought my 1911.IMHO, weight isn't nearly as much as an issue as mass because your body adjusts more easily to weight than a solid object mashing into your side when you sit down. Tbh, the 1911 is the ultimate CCW, for that reason, as a thin, single stack profile. If the OP must have a 1911, which is good idea, I would try Para-Ordanance before Kimber, if only because of that article. |
2 years old this November. I'm aware of the issues and they tend to crop up on the more expensive Kimbers, rather than the base model. FWIW, I never sent one back, and sold plenty when I worked at a gun store (last year).
Paras have their share of issues. Especially recently. Baby Eagles are heavy compared to the weapon they were (poorly) copied from, the CZ. Because they wanted to make them look like the fullsize desert eagle. Thus, it is thicker in certain areas than a CZ - and heavier. |
Then you haven't done your homework with Para. Frankly I would never buy either one. Kimbers have the swartz safety, which requires disconnection for me, they are chock full of MIM (preference issue not a function one), their rollmarks are ugly IMO, and as you have pointed out, they have had some troubles with QC. Paras on the other hand have the less obtrusive but equally undesirable Series 80 system, are chock full of MIM (roughly finished last I looked as well), they cannot make a 1911 these days that doesn't resemble an alien butt plug, and their quality has been in the crapper for years AS HAS THEIR WARRANTY WORK and I had seen at the end of my dealings and read enough accounts to suggest the same of their customer service. While I am not a fan of either pistol, I'll tell you this... If A Kimber was given to me, I'd consider keeping it, especially if I couldn't get a return selling it. If a Para was given to me, I'd dump it, even at an absurdly low cost. If I found an unmolested Kimber Warrior for $400, I'd jump on it. If I found whatever flagship pistol Para makes for the same, I'd skip it.
I agree with 1911s and the weight issue, especially with the smaller ones when it comes to shooting them. |
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mr pulpsmack and a couple of the other previous posters have provided some great insights... that said, i would agree, the PT1911, esp for the price nowadays, the poor QC and CS from the company, etc, i would pass for now... i'd look to a Springfield Armory; other great brands i would also look to: Smith and Wesson and STI --used or new; the loaded model for SA offers a 1911 thats more refined vs the milspecs for a great price, and those from SW are also the same check the EE and Gunbroker both companies offer a great product and great backing from each company that said, there are several other brands under ~$1k, which have many satisfied users from em: kimber, Sig, Rock Island Armory, Dan Wesson, Colt etc you can find used products online, esp our EE new wise, you can find CMC mags for ~$15 online, new; if not, pay a little more, get used Wilson Combat 47Ds for ~$20-$25 (new) mag carriers: you can go 'cheap' and get a double kydex mag carrier from uncle mikes for ~$15-$20 from your local shop or online...sure its cheap, but it works (better than the fobus at least too) Midway USA offers very good prices on these accessory products online as to holsters, you can find TOP quality holsters for a little cheaper than the afforementioned ~+$100; CompTac offers great holsters (MTAC, CTAC, etc); also, TTGunleather offers a great knockoff of the venerable Milt Sparks VM II for ~$75--check Ebay or thier site i would probably not invest in another type of holster, lest you are just wasting cash on junk IWB holsters, like uncle mike's, fobus, etc hope that helps |
Still struggling to overcome that shyness of yours, I see............... 
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