Posted: 3/28/2010 3:41:33 PM EDT
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I was having a discussion with a friend yesterday, as he is working on getting his carry permit, and I already have mine. We were discussing how we need to get together and get some training like FRONT SITE or some other group. As we were talking about situations where you are defending yourself in public, I had a thought...
What if you are in a situation with multiple good guys? How do you deal with/ react to one another? How could you be sure they are good guys and not bad guys? Let me try to illustrate this point... You are sitting in a restaurant eating a burger when a guy walks in waving a gun saying he is going to kill everyone. You draw your CCW and engage the threat. As you do, you notice someone on the other side of the restaurant drawing a gun as well. You can't be sure that this is another bad guy, or a good guy. What do you do? Order them to put their gun down, as you point yours at them? That is lethal force here and the other person can kill you for it. Do you ask them if they are a good guy? They can lie, and kill you once you turn around. Do you just trust that they are a good guy because they aren't waving their gun around? They can still kill you when your back is turned. What if he stands to engage the threat of the bad guy at the same time you did, suddenly you have a room full of strangers with guns on one another. What then? The others may think you are a bad guy. What if the situation above is reversed. What if another person draws down on the bad guy and perforates him, then sees you with your gun out and advances on you. What do you do? What do you do if he tells you to drop your gun? He has a loaded gun on you, just got done killing one person, do you just trust him not to have an error in judgment? What if you both engage the bad guy, is that somehow a universal sign of, "We are good guys, lets not fight amongst ourselves." Are these questions addressed in training, or have any of you ever thought about it? Is there a universal signal for, "I'm a good guy, don't shoot."? |
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you probably will NOT find the answers here or anywhere on the net...
in truth, you may only find answers through training, specifically, through force on force training, and even then, they will not be definite answers, but only better insights and options you or me or anyone else can NOT say "i would do this" without either testing or experiencing it first (via force on force or in reality); the situations you present are all possible as far as i know of, there is no 'universal' sign between good/bad guys to signal "hey, dont shoot me" during the times of high stress in a fight; h/w, there may be cues you can pick up, including relying on your instincts, the posture, attitude, even the ''eyes'' of "the other guy"...hopefully, that other good guy has had the sense and so-forth to also do the same and not simply start gunning down the first "threat" he sees (remember: intent, opportunity, and ability MUST be estb) it can almost be a catch-22: risk it all and draw to engage the badguy and invite the possibility another goodguy comes out and mistakes you...but its an inherent ''risk'' which must be taken; such instances show why mindset, training, and how carrying and using a gun may not be for everyone,l but its part of it you must be prepared to be shot by the good guy (who is is also unknowlingly responding) as well as possibly shooting a good guy yourself inadvertantly; "you can do everything 'right' and still get fu*ked"...accept it and move on imo, h/w, you are making it too complicated, and over-convoluting the "what-if" processes of another good-guy gunning you down; its not 'bad' to be thinking about such aspects, but you should not let such possibilities hinder the other, more immediate problems, includind the badguy and bad situation which must also be identified and delt with first 
i dont know though, just my .02c |
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Personally, this is one of those things I log into the "you won't know until it happens" folder. For example, if the other person that stands up is a guy that is at the restaurant eating with his family... I'm going to assume he's a good guy and just be done with it. This is where I cross my fingers, rock back and forth in my chair and say "try to be aware of your surroundings, try to be aware of your surroundings".
That's all I really want to say. I would like to think that I would NOT point a gun at someone who has not demonstrated themselves to be a threat to me. That goes against the rules of engagement that my mind is programmed for at this point... |
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hopefully all "goodguys" will have weapons pointed at the "badguy". same scenario above, only another cc patron shoots the badguy, you wouldn't then point your weapon at them would you? why would they draw down on you if you just engaged the threat? I had that same thought bounce into my head while writing the OP. ETA: Just a thought, in your CC training, arent you taught to address all threats from a "ready" standpoint, as in, "ready to drop the hammer on them if need be"? Doesnt it seem "tactically" sound to put your gun on the next possible threat after engaging the first. Isnt that why instructors teach you to sweep left-right after engaging a target in order to identify other ones? |
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hopefully all "goodguys" will have weapons pointed at the "badguy". same scenario above, only another cc patron shoots the badguy, you wouldn't then point your weapon at them would you? why would they draw down on you if you just engaged the threat? I had that same thought bounce into my head while writing the OP. ETA: Just a thought, in your CC training, arent you taught to address all threats from a "ready" standpoint, as in, "ready to drop the hammer on them if need be"? Doesnt it seem "tactically" sound to put your gun on the next possible threat after engaging the first. Isnt that why instructors teach you to sweep left-right after engaging a target in order to identify other ones? yes but you sweep with your head/eyes not the gun. I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. some teach a compressed ready, you just have to have good muzzle control/awareness so as not to sweep good guys. edit: any training you get will be worth it as long as it is with a accredited outfit. even a one day class is better than nothing if you have to wait a while to go somewhere like FrontSite |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk dont know how to make it hot  . this was the first vid I saw, but it shows SUL.
I would use a low ready. That situation to be honest like said earlier you have to be in it before you can honestly know what to do. If a guy walked into a place of business and I am in an exposed area no cover or concealment I am not going to just draw and engage. You are just asking to get yourself shot because if he sees you in the process of drawing he is going for you first. Here is my advice first find cover and concealment he already is drawn and will have the drop on you if you decide to draw at this point. When someone walks into anywhere waving a gun everyone is going to be getting down and hiding behind stuff. Do the same once you have cover or at least concealment then draw. Find out if the threat is one or more people then begin engaging your target or targets closest to furthest away. Once you believe you have engaged and stopped the threat or threat then scan. Once you have scanned and ensured that the threat is neutralized physically disarm the threat by moving his/her weapon away from his/her reach. Hopefully by now someone has notified the police at this point I would recommend doing a tactical reload just in case the threat has backup gang members usually travel in groups and will retaliate. This way of approaching the situation will help give you the time needed to access the situation if someone else draws you should stay put so they do not mistake you for a threat. No use in being a hero if it is going to get you killed by friendly fire. If you see they need backup then I would recommend drawing and begin engaging threats but you need to make it know you a friendly. Unfortunately we do not wear uniforms that identify each other like we did in the military so use your head and remember you are no good to anyone carrying a gun when you are dead. |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? ...an indication that you should make obtaining handgun training from someone like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn a top priority in the immediate future. |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9L7UUp0FxY |
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Quoted: Quoted: I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? "South" in Portuguese. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ykmchwOgqE |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk dont know how to make it hot . this was the first vid I saw, but it shows SUL.
I would use a low ready. That situation to be honest like said earlier you have to be in it before you can honestly know what to do. If a guy walked into a place of business and I am in an exposed area no cover or concealment I am not going to just draw and engage. You are just asking to get yourself shot because if he sees you in the process of drawing he is going for you first. Here is my advice first find cover and concealment he already is drawn and will have the drop on you if you decide to draw at this point. When someone walks into anywhere waving a gun everyone is going to be getting down and hiding behind stuff. Do the same once you have cover or at least concealment then draw. Find out if the threat is one or more people then begin engaging your target or targets closest to furthest away. Once you believe you have engaged and stopped the threat or threat then scan. Once you have scanned and ensured that the threat is neutralized physically disarm the threat by moving his/her weapon away from his/her reach. Hopefully by now someone has notified the police at this point I would recommend doing a tactical reload just in case the threat has backup gang members usually travel in groups and will retaliate. This way of approaching the situation will help give you the time needed to access the situation if someone else draws you should stay put so they do not mistake you for a threat. No use in being a hero if it is going to get you killed by friendly fire. If you see they need backup then I would recommend drawing and begin engaging threats but you need to make it know you a friendly. Unfortunately we do not wear uniforms that identify each other like we did in the military so use your head and remember you are no good to anyone carrying a gun when you are dead. why would you use low ready in a crowded restaurant where you are proly going to have all kinds of people running around trying to get to safety? is all you are gona do is sweep them in the waist instead of the chest. low ready is great when you are on a threat that is down but for a search and assess in a crowded area why in the hell are you gona point you gun at everyone's waist? do me a favor cowboy. dont search and assess at a low ready with me to your side I'm not a fan of having guns pointed at me
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? ...an indication that you should make obtaining handgun training from someone like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn a top priority in the immediate future. Do they run their own programs, or operate from an outfit like Front Site? Also, whats an approximate cost of their classes, or do you by chance have an AAR from one of their classes? |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? "South" in Portuguese. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ykmchwOgqE Thank you for the videos. I thought the second one was pretty cool. Ive never thought (because I have no formal training) about close in defense like that. |
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Do they run their own programs, Yes. or operate from an outfit like Front Site? They travel from place to place using various ranges as arranged for by whomever is hosting them. Also, whats an approximate cost of their classes, Figure 200 bucks per day. or do you by chance have an AAR from one of their classes? Joo want AAR's mang? OK. I give you AAR's: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=228378 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45257 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39437 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30737 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28872 ...and there are tons more out there. The U.S. Training Center's 5 day handgun courses are also not bad. |
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Do they run their own programs, Yes. or operate from an outfit like Front Site? They travel from place to place using various ranges as arranged for by whomever is hosting them. Also, whats an approximate cost of their classes, Figure 200 bucks per day. or do you by chance have an AAR from one of their classes? Joo want AAR's mang? OK. I give you AAR's: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=228378 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45257 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39437 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30737 http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28872 ...and there are tons more out there. The U.S. Training Center's 5 day handgun courses are also not bad. Thank you, now I have something to do in between classes today 
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk dont know how to make it hot . this was the first vid I saw, but it shows SUL.
I would use a low ready. That situation to be honest like said earlier you have to be in it before you can honestly know what to do. If a guy walked into a place of business and I am in an exposed area no cover or concealment I am not going to just draw and engage. You are just asking to get yourself shot because if he sees you in the process of drawing he is going for you first. Here is my advice first find cover and concealment he already is drawn and will have the drop on you if you decide to draw at this point. When someone walks into anywhere waving a gun everyone is going to be getting down and hiding behind stuff. Do the same once you have cover or at least concealment then draw. Find out if the threat is one or more people then begin engaging your target or targets closest to furthest away. Once you believe you have engaged and stopped the threat or threat then scan. Once you have scanned and ensured that the threat is neutralized physically disarm the threat by moving his/her weapon away from his/her reach. Hopefully by now someone has notified the police at this point I would recommend doing a tactical reload just in case the threat has backup gang members usually travel in groups and will retaliate. This way of approaching the situation will help give you the time needed to access the situation if someone else draws you should stay put so they do not mistake you for a threat. No use in being a hero if it is going to get you killed by friendly fire. If you see they need backup then I would recommend drawing and begin engaging threats but you need to make it know you a friendly. Unfortunately we do not wear uniforms that identify each other like we did in the military so use your head and remember you are no good to anyone carrying a gun when you are dead. why would you use low ready in a crowded restaurant where you are proly going to have all kinds of people running around trying to get to safety? is all you are gona do is sweep them in the waist instead of the chest. low ready is great when you are on a threat that is down but for a search and assess in a crowded area why in the hell are you gona point you gun at everyone's waist? do me a favor cowboy. dont search and assess at a low ready with me to your side I'm not a fan of having guns pointed at meI totally understand what you are saying and I agree. But the way I was trained is everyone in that situation can possibly be a hostile. I am not going to go into all the details but it is hard to break a habit that was trained to you to save your life. When you have people shooting at you to kill you and people trying to blow themselves up to kill you then I think you would understand. IMO until I know otherwise everyone around me in that situation can possibly be a hostile and until the SWAT or Police get their to take care of the situation I am looking out for myself. Several times while in Iraq/Afghan you would have guys take pop shots at you. Then you get that under control and from behind you the guy that was just looking and was ducking with you is shooting at you now. I know I know this is not Iraq but you get shot at, almost blown up, mortars dropped around you, friend get killed, and I think you will understand where I am coming from. |
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why are you not dropping your burger, grabbing whoever your with and making for your own escape?
or, if someone else already has killed the bad guy, why are you trying to form up some militia of armed citizens? fuck credit for the kill, holster your weapon. you dont want any part of this in the first place. |
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Quoted: Nobody said CCW BADGE? we're making some progress in here... Worse: Quoted: http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tactical-sash.jpg no i don't have or want one.... |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? ...an indication that you should make obtaining handgun training from someone like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn a top priority in the immediate future. This. |
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Quoted: I'm not waiting...You say he is waving his gun around.Don't think you can shoot a guy for waving a gun around. Until he points the gun at someone, then i would say you may not be in the right to shoot him. Once he lowers the gun to shoot someone,then you take him out. |
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You say he is waving his gun around.Don't think you can shoot a guy for waving a gun around. Until he points the gun at someone, then i would say you may not be in the right to shoot him. Once he lowers the gun to shoot someone,then you take him out. Try waving your gun around in front of a LEO, but remember not to point it at anyone. Let me know how it turns out. |
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You say he is waving his gun around.Don't think you can shoot a guy for waving a gun around. Until he points the gun at someone, then i would say you may not be in the right to shoot him. Once he lowers the gun to shoot someone,then you take him out. Try waving your gun around in front of a LEO, but remember not to point it at anyone. Let me know how it turns out. So if I have a gun in my hand and waving it in the air pointed towards the sky in front of an LEO, he has the right to shoot me. i don't think so.Once I make the move of lowering the gun,all bets are off. |
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You say he is waving his gun around.Don't think you can shoot a guy for waving a gun around. Until he points the gun at someone, then i would say you may not be in the right to shoot him. Once he lowers the gun to shoot someone,then you take him out. Try waving your gun around in front of a LEO, but remember not to point it at anyone. Let me know how it turns out. So if I have a gun in my hand and waving it in the air pointed towards the sky in front of an LEO, he has the right to shoot me. i don't think so.Once I make the move of lowering the gun,all bets are off. YES your location says Washington, so here it is: (1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases: (a) When a public officer is acting in obedience to the judgment of a competent court; or (b) When necessarily used by a peace officer to overcome actual resistance to the execution of the legal process, mandate, or order of a court or officer, or in the discharge of a legal duty. (c) When necessarily used by a peace officer or person acting under the officer's command and in the officer's aid: (i) To arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony; (ii) To prevent the escape of a person from a federal or state correctional facility or in retaking a person who escapes from such a facility; or (iii) To prevent the escape of a person from a county or city jail or holding facility if the person has been arrested for, charged with, or convicted of a felony; or (iv) To lawfully suppress a riot if the actor or another participant is armed with a deadly weapon. (2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following: (a) The suspect threatens a peace officer with a weapon or displays a weapon in a manner that could reasonably be construed as threatening; or (b) There is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed any crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm. Under these circumstances deadly force may also be used if necessary to prevent escape from the officer, where, if feasible, some warning is given. (3) A public officer or peace officer shall not be held criminally liable for using deadly force without malice and with a good faith belief that such act is justifiable pursuant to this section. (4) This section shall not be construed as: (a) Affecting the permissible use of force by a person acting under the authority of RCW 9A.16.020 or 9A.16.050; or (b) Preventing a law enforcement agency from adopting standards pertaining to its use of deadly force that are more restrictive than this section. |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk dont know how to make it hot . this was the first vid I saw, but it shows SUL.
I would use a low ready. That situation to be honest like said earlier you have to be in it before you can honestly know what to do. If a guy walked into a place of business and I am in an exposed area no cover or concealment I am not going to just draw and engage. You are just asking to get yourself shot because if he sees you in the process of drawing he is going for you first. Here is my advice first find cover and concealment he already is drawn and will have the drop on you if you decide to draw at this point. When someone walks into anywhere waving a gun everyone is going to be getting down and hiding behind stuff. Do the same once you have cover or at least concealment then draw. Find out if the threat is one or more people then begin engaging your target or targets closest to furthest away. Once you believe you have engaged and stopped the threat or threat then scan. Once you have scanned and ensured that the threat is neutralized physically disarm the threat by moving his/her weapon away from his/her reach. Hopefully by now someone has notified the police at this point I would recommend doing a tactical reload just in case the threat has backup gang members usually travel in groups and will retaliate. This way of approaching the situation will help give you the time needed to access the situation if someone else draws you should stay put so they do not mistake you for a threat. No use in being a hero if it is going to get you killed by friendly fire. If you see they need backup then I would recommend drawing and begin engaging threats but you need to make it know you a friendly. Unfortunately we do not wear uniforms that identify each other like we did in the military so use your head and remember you are no good to anyone carrying a gun when you are dead. why would you use low ready in a crowded restaurant where you are proly going to have all kinds of people running around trying to get to safety? is all you are gona do is sweep them in the waist instead of the chest. low ready is great when you are on a threat that is down but for a search and assess in a crowded area why in the hell are you gona point you gun at everyone's waist? do me a favor cowboy. dont search and assess at a low ready with me to your side I'm not a fan of having guns pointed at meI totally understand what you are saying and I agree. But the way I was trained is everyone in that situation can possibly be a hostile. I am not going to go into all the details but it is hard to break a habit that was trained to you to save your life. When you have people shooting at you to kill you and people trying to blow themselves up to kill you then I think you would understand. IMO until I know otherwise everyone around me in that situation can possibly be a hostile and until the SWAT or Police get their to take care of the situation I am looking out for myself. Several times while in Iraq/Afghan you would have guys take pop shots at you. Then you get that under control and from behind you the guy that was just looking and was ducking with you is shooting at you now. I know I know this is not Iraq but you get shot at, almost blown up, mortars dropped around you, friend get killed, and I think you will understand where I am coming from. and that my friend is the differance between civilian training and military training, we are looking at the situation through completely differant view points. Thank you for your service. I understand your point. |
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why are you not dropping your burger, grabbing whoever your with and making for your own escape? Where I am from, most of the restaurants here have a single entrance/exit area. I would imagine it would be difficult to rush past an armed attacker to get out of these places. I definitely wouldn't mind escaping, but that is not the point of this discussion. or, if someone else already has killed the bad guy, why are you trying to form up some militia of armed citizens? fuck credit for the kill, holster your weapon. you don't want any part of this in the first place. I am not trying to form a militia of armed citizens. The purpose of my question was to find out how instructors train you to deal with the multiple shooter scenario. How has your instructor taught you to react to another possible friendly in a shooting situation, when that other person is a complete stranger to you (and you cannot be 100% sure of his motives)? This isn't about taking credit for a kill, it is about how to deal with a possible good guy after a shooting. |
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You say he is waving his gun around.Don't think you can shoot a guy for waving a gun around. Until he points the gun at someone, then i would say you may not be in the right to shoot him. Once he lowers the gun to shoot someone,then you take him out. I said You are sitting in a restaurant eating a burger when a guy walks in waving a gun saying he is going to kill everyone.
In Indiana, as it has been explained to me by my Criminal Justice professors, Criminal Courts professor, and Criminal Investigations instructor, the three things you must prove to justify self defense are... 1. The other person had the ability to harm you.As it has been explained to me through class ability is whether they are able to wield a weapon against you and advance on you. 2. The other person had the opportunity to harm you.In class we are taught that opportunity is "within your immediate vicinity" which in this case counts as being in the same room as you. 3. and The other person had the intent to harm you.Intent is whether a "reasonable man" would be led to believe that the person will carry out their threat. In this case, he is waving a gun around and threatening to kill a room full of diners, would you come to the conclusion that he intends to kill someone? In Indiana, in order to use lethal force, you must be using self defense in fear of your life. I think this would qualify. IC 35-41-3-2 Use of force to protect person or property Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person: (1) is justified in using deadly force; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary. (b) A person: (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle. (c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person: (1) is justified in using deadly force; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; only if that force is justified under subsection (a). |
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I was taught to go into SUL for the search and assess so as not to sweep others. What is SUL? "South" in Portuguese. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDvGhNaKOk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ykmchwOgqE Thank you for the videos. I thought the second one was pretty cool. Ive never thought (because I have no formal training) about close in defense like that. This type of thing is, in my opinion, critical in LE training. The frequency that people try and wrestle with cops or try and take their weapon necessitates it. |