High round count pistols (100,000+) observations (Page 19 of 20)
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I sort of half-assed re-read this thread and didn't see it addressed. I also suspect that (understandably) maybe the guns aren't looked at in this level of detail. A gunsmith and I got into an argument over this a couple of weeks ago, so here goes: Has anyone noticed whether MIM parts tend to fail more than machined ones? (I'm guessing most MIM parts are easily spotted by the knockout pin marks on them). |
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Originally Posted By Dominion21: Glock has never been a traditional handgun design. I am not a metallurgist, but: - Glock did not invent salt-bath nitriding, but Glock pioneered it’s use for handgun mass production, under its trademarked name: “Tennifer.” - Tennifer/ nitriding happens at fairly low temps - often 1,100 degrees. Warping is generally not an issue at such low temps. - Glock also figured out he could use a much cheaper, easier to machine, grade of steel (and save tons of $$$) if he simply salt-bath nitrided it. - the result is Glock slides are a bit like an M&M candy: hard on the outside but relatively soft steel inside. - Europe uses different names for their steel. But whatever steel they are using, I am not convinced it goes through a separate heat treat after machining. Just the nitriding. So I do not believe it is a heat treating difference. Rather, probably a grade of steel issue, that may make the slide prone to cracking. but remember this is only at very high round counts, not at all typical of the average police officers use of his Glock. I'm curious, is there a superior steel and treatment or coating for gun slides that is better than what Glock uses? What are they and do any gun makers use them? Does HK use the same steel and heat treatment for the USP as Glock uses for it's guns ? On YouTube, sootch00 tried out a Glock that had a titanium slide, it was lighter but snappier... Titanium Glock Slide from Krytos Industries... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ErapMeIgQ "The company has developed a series of Glock slides for the G17 and the G19 machined from solid billets of 6AL4V, aerospace grade titanium and finished with the company's own "ArmorTi" finish."... https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/more-with-less-krytos-industries-titanium-glock-slides/ I wonder how those titanium slides and titanium slides in general would stand up to the abuse at Battlefield Las Vegas ? Both titanium and stainless steel can have a problem with galling due to friction. |
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We use Glock 23s in the Kentucky Department of Corrections. Unfortunately we are starting to have cracks in the frames in the guns starting around the 60,000 round count. We use 165 gr bullets and Glock informed us that the 165 gr bullets will wear out the weapon sooner than the 180 grain bullets. They stated that is why the frames are cracking. Our training instructor/Armorer that called Glock is a Glock fan boy and even he raised his eyebrows at Glock's responses. He told them then before we switched to Glocks we had revolvers and smith & wesson third generation 9mms and never had any cracking of the frames in them. And the Smith 9mms had over 100,000 rounds through them and the revolvers at least as much if not more since some dated from the early 1950s. We used +P 38s in them the last 20 years and many of the old revolvers were not rated for that but held up fine. They hemmed and hawed at that. We switched to the Glocks in 2015. |
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If you have had the guns since 2015 and have 60,000 rounds through them, how often do you guys qualify and how many rounds per qualification? That number seems excessive for any department. If you’ve put 60,000 rounds through a pistol, that in itself is a testament to the pistols reliability and durability. Maybe you meant 60,000 total for the entire Ky DOC. That would sound more reasonable. If 60,000 through one pistol, that comes up to around 8571 rounds a year. |
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Originally Posted By JMD: We use Glock 23s in the Kentucky Department of Corrections. Unfortunately we are starting to have cracks in the frames in the guns starting around the 60,000 round count. We use 165 gr bullets and Glock informed us that the 165 gr bullets will wear out the weapon sooner than the 180 grain bullets. They stated that is why the frames are cracking. Our training instructor/Armorer that called Glock is a Glock fan boy and even he raised his eyebrows at Glock's responses. He told them then before we switched to Glocks we had revolvers and smith & wesson third generation 9mms and never had any cracking of the frames in them. And the Smith 9mms had over 100,000 rounds through them and the revolvers at least as much if not more since some dated from the early 1950s. We used +P 38s in them the last 20 years and many of the old revolvers were not rated for that but held up fine. They hemmed and hawed at that. We switched to the Glocks in 2015. Exactly what part of the frames are cracking? Do you happen to have a pic? |
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Originally Posted By stjohn45: If you have had the guns since 2015 and have 60,000 rounds through them, how often do you guys qualify and how many rounds per qualification? That number seems excessive for any department. If you’ve put 60,000 rounds through a pistol, that in itself is a testament to the pistols reliability and durability. Maybe you meant 60,000 total for the entire Ky DOC. That would sound more reasonable. If 60,000 through one pistol, that comes up to around 8571 rounds a year. I agree. 60,000 rounds for DOC issue pistol over the course of seven years sounds exceedingly unlikely. That's 23 rounds every day for 2,555 straight days. If you mean 60,000 rounds across the entire issuance of the G23 then I would be curious as to the individual weapon round counts that are showing frame failures. I saw the rear right side frame rail come off a G21 ... after the SD Deputy managed to accidentally fire a 40SW round through it. |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: The Canik pistols are still running without issues. We didn't expect that to be honest. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By everready73: @hendersondefense Any info on the Caniks? Thanks for all the awesome feedback The Canik pistols are still running without issues. We didn't expect that to be honest. V/R Ron How are the Caniks still holding up? |
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Originally Posted By Beamy: How are the Caniks still holding up? Other than one breaking a spring, they are still running. The staff ordered the spring and put the other one back on the line. We got these back when they were relatively new to the market and I honestly didn't think they would last. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By DocApocalypse: I sort of half-assed re-read this thread and didn't see it addressed. I also suspect that (understandably) maybe the guns aren't looked at in this level of detail. A gunsmith and I got into an argument over this a couple of weeks ago, so here goes: Has anyone noticed whether MIM parts tend to fail more than machined ones? (I'm guessing most MIM parts are easily spotted by the knockout pin marks on them). If there was a real issue with MIM automakers would not use MIM. MIM stuff is all over in a lot of engines and has been for years |
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Hey just want to say I greatly appreciate your threads. Because of these threads I knew about you guys in Las Vegas and when I went there with my fiance I stopped by to do some shooting. Everyone was friendly and helpful. I loved seeing the various patches people had on their outfits. Getting picked up in a hummer on the main strip was certainly impressive. I shot many firearms but my favorite was the Maxim gun because of its history. The Lewis gun and minigun were awesome too. Thanks! Oh, and a question. Do gen 5 glocks hold up any better? I'd love to see a PSA dagger failure comparison but I doubt anyone would want to rent one  .
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Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: Are there any 2011s that even approach modern striker-fired handguns for long term durability? We finally brought a 2011 over from our retail store and we are going to offer it a "high-end" shooters package with guns from the latest video game releases. I can't remember which game but my staff know all the cool guns that people ask for and this is one of them. I will keep you guys posted. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By madcap3k: Hey just want to say I greatly appreciate your threads. Because of these threads I knew about you guys in Las Vegas and when I went there with my fiance I stopped by to do some shooting. Everyone was friendly and helpful. I loved seeing the various patches people had on their outfits. Getting picked up in a hummer on the main strip was certainly impressive. I shot many firearms but my favorite was the Maxim gun because of its history. The Lewis gun and minigun were awesome too. Thanks! Oh, and a question. Do gen 5 glocks hold up any better? I'd love to see a PSA dagger failure comparison but I doubt anyone would want to rent one .Thank you and I will find out about the Gen 5 Glocks. My oldest son is going to send over some the really nice PSA Dagger's so we can throw them on the line. I'll keep you posted on those as well. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Thank you and I will find out about the Gen 5 Glocks. My oldest son is going to send over some the really nice PSA Dagger's so we can throw them on the line. I'll keep you posted on those as well. V/R Ron I am looking forward to see how the daggers hold up after they addressed some issues after they first launched. If I ever get to Vegas I would love to stop in. |
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Originally Posted By travisty250: I am looking forward to see how the daggers hold up after they addressed some issues after they first launched. If I ever get to Vegas I would love to stop in. Originally Posted By travisty250: Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Thank you and I will find out about the Gen 5 Glocks. My oldest son is going to send over some the really nice PSA Dagger's so we can throw them on the line. I'll keep you posted on those as well. V/R Ron I am looking forward to see how the daggers hold up after they addressed some issues after they first launched. If I ever get to Vegas I would love to stop in. Me too. But haven’t followed the dagger drama. What issues? |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: We finally brought a 2011 over from our retail store and we are going to offer it a "high-end" shooters package with guns from the latest video game releases. I can't remember which game but my staff know all the cool guns that people ask for and this is one of them. I will keep you guys posted. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: Are there any 2011s that even approach modern striker-fired handguns for long term durability? We finally brought a 2011 over from our retail store and we are going to offer it a "high-end" shooters package with guns from the latest video game releases. I can't remember which game but my staff know all the cool guns that people ask for and this is one of them. I will keep you guys posted. V/R Ron You should do a John Wicke Package 
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Originally Posted By boolzi: Me too. But haven’t followed the dagger drama. What issues? Pins walking, scraggy bores mostly. |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Here's a M17 that I found in the broken weapons cart last week. I still have to say the most reliable handgun we have is the Glock. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/Nz2Nh3v.jpg?1 @HendersonDefense How are the Sig P320 FCUs holding up as far as wear and tear on slide rails and in general? |
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Originally Posted By boolzi: Me too. But haven’t followed the dagger drama. What issues? Trigger pins walking, mags dropping. Some strikers breaking with hard use. IMO, they were teething pains, they have had the bugs worked out. They are a pretty refined pistol now, I own 5. I want a micro when they finally have been out awhile, and a G34 size if they ever offer one. |
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Originally Posted By colklink: Trigger pins walking, mags dropping. Some strikers breaking with hard use. IMO, they were teething pains, they have had the bugs worked out. They are a pretty refined pistol now, I own 5. I want a micro when they finally have been out awhile, and a G34 size if they ever offer one. Five? That's ridiculous. Actually, I have 5 too. Cut one down to G26 length for shits and giggles. I need the micro. |
Originally Posted By Det0nate: It takes a special kind of retard to argue the wrong side of second grade spelling.
What made you pick that particular quote for your sig-line?
--Swindle1984
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Originally Posted By Ohio: Five? That's ridiculous. Actually, I have 5 too. Cut one down to G26 length for shits and giggles. I need the micro. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By JMD: We use Glock 23s in the Kentucky Department of Corrections. Unfortunately we are starting to have cracks in the frames in the guns starting around the 60,000 round count. We use 165 gr bullets and Glock informed us that the 165 gr bullets will wear out the weapon sooner than the 180 grain bullets. They stated that is why the frames are cracking. Our training instructor/Armorer that called Glock is a Glock fan boy and even he raised his eyebrows at Glock's responses. He told them then before we switched to Glocks we had revolvers and smith & wesson third generation 9mms and never had any cracking of the frames in them. And the Smith 9mms had over 100,000 rounds through them and the revolvers at least as much if not more since some dated from the early 1950s. We used +P 38s in them the last 20 years and many of the old revolvers were not rated for that but held up fine. They hemmed and hawed at that. We switched to the Glocks in 2015. Hey JMD, why would a lower grain bullet wear out the weapon faster than a higher grain weight? I thought lower bullet weight meant less pressure, less slamming of the slide back, etc... This is something Ron and team. It's like a snapshot of history to read in a couple sittings from the early days in 2015 until now 2023. I hope you all ares still enjoying it and wish the best for your awesome team you've got there. |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Thank you and I will find out about the Gen 5 Glocks. My oldest son is going to send over some the really nice PSA Dagger's so we can throw them on the line. I'll keep you posted on those as well. V/R Ron @HendersonDefense Any word on how the Daggers are holding up? |
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Originally Posted By PrayForAmerica: Hey JMD, why would a lower grain bullet wear out the weapon faster than a higher grain weight? I thought lower bullet weight meant less pressure, less slamming of the slide back, etc... This is something Ron and team. It's like a snapshot of history to read in a couple sittings from the early days in 2015 until now 2023. I hope you all ares still enjoying it and wish the best for your awesome team you've got there. Originally Posted By PrayForAmerica: Originally Posted By JMD: We use Glock 23s in the Kentucky Department of Corrections. Unfortunately we are starting to have cracks in the frames in the guns starting around the 60,000 round count. We use 165 gr bullets and Glock informed us that the 165 gr bullets will wear out the weapon sooner than the 180 grain bullets. They stated that is why the frames are cracking. Our training instructor/Armorer that called Glock is a Glock fan boy and even he raised his eyebrows at Glock's responses. He told them then before we switched to Glocks we had revolvers and smith & wesson third generation 9mms and never had any cracking of the frames in them. And the Smith 9mms had over 100,000 rounds through them and the revolvers at least as much if not more since some dated from the early 1950s. We used +P 38s in them the last 20 years and many of the old revolvers were not rated for that but held up fine. They hemmed and hawed at that. We switched to the Glocks in 2015. Hey JMD, why would a lower grain bullet wear out the weapon faster than a higher grain weight? I thought lower bullet weight meant less pressure, less slamming of the slide back, etc... This is something Ron and team. It's like a snapshot of history to read in a couple sittings from the early days in 2015 until now 2023. I hope you all ares still enjoying it and wish the best for your awesome team you've got there. For a given power factor, cartridges with heavier bullets impart less velocity to the slide than the same power factor with lighter bullets. Generally speaking, heavier grain commercial loads tend to be loaded with less powder than those with lighter bullets. If you just put a heavier bullet on top of the same charge of powder, your assertion would be correct. |
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Originally Posted By whiskerz: If there was a real issue with MIM automakers would not use MIM. MIM stuff is all over in a lot of engines and has been for years Connecting rods in the ford 460 hp gt are powdered metal I believe. Haven't heard of them being a failure point. |
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Originally Posted By devildog93: Connecting rods in the ford 460 hp gt are powdered metal I believe. Haven't heard of them being a failure point. Originally Posted By devildog93: Originally Posted By whiskerz: If there was a real issue with MIM automakers would not use MIM. MIM stuff is all over in a lot of engines and has been for years Connecting rods in the ford 460 hp gt are powdered metal I believe. Haven't heard of them being a failure point. MIM isn't a problem. The problem has been that several gun makers (looking at you, US branded mid-tier 1911 makers) have sourced their MIM parts from China, with the usual bad results. People then blame MIM. Instead of admitting that it is US assembled, with lowest bidder chinesium content. |
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Originally Posted By Bullet_: Exactly! MIM isn't a problem. The problem has been that several gun makers (looking at you, US branded mid-tier 1911 makers) have sourced their MIM parts from China, with the usual bad results. People then blame MIM. Instead of admitting that it is US assembled, with lowest bidder chinesium content. Originally Posted By Bullet_: Originally Posted By devildog93: Originally Posted By whiskerz: If there was a real issue with MIM automakers would not use MIM. MIM stuff is all over in a lot of engines and has been for years Connecting rods in the ford 460 hp gt are powdered metal I believe. Haven't heard of them being a failure point. MIM isn't a problem. The problem has been that several gun makers (looking at you, US branded mid-tier 1911 makers) have sourced their MIM parts from China, with the usual bad results. People then blame MIM. Instead of admitting that it is US assembled, with lowest bidder chinesium content. I didn't know this about those US 1911 makers getting parts from China. I'm displeased. |
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Originally Posted By Bullet_: Exactly! MIM isn't a problem. The problem has been that several gun makers (looking at you, US branded mid-tier 1911 makers) have sourced their MIM parts from China, with the usual bad results. People then blame MIM. Instead of admitting that it is US assembled, with lowest bidder chinesium content. Which manufacturers? |
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Originally Posted By JMD: We use Glock 23s in the Kentucky Department of Corrections. Unfortunately we are starting to have cracks in the frames in the guns starting around the 60,000 round count. We use 165 gr bullets and Glock informed us that the 165 gr bullets will wear out the weapon sooner than the 180 grain bullets. They stated that is why the frames are cracking. Our training instructor/Armorer that called Glock is a Glock fan boy and even he raised his eyebrows at Glock's responses. He told them then before we switched to Glocks we had revolvers and smith & wesson third generation 9mms and never had any cracking of the frames in them. And the Smith 9mms had over 100,000 rounds through them and the revolvers at least as much if not more since some dated from the early 1950s. We used +P 38s in them the last 20 years and many of the old revolvers were not rated for that but held up fine. They hemmed and hawed at that. We switched to the Glocks in 2015. The 165s have higher slide velocity. |
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Originally Posted By HKPOF: I'm curious, is there a superior steel and treatment or coating for gun slides that is better than what Glock uses? What are they and do any gun makers use them? Does HK use the same steel and heat treatment for the USP as Glock uses for it's guns ? On YouTube, sootch00 tried out a Glock that had a titanium slide, it was lighter but snappier... Titanium Glock Slide from Krytos Industries... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ErapMeIgQ "The company has developed a series of Glock slides for the G17 and the G19 machined from solid billets of 6AL4V, aerospace grade titanium and finished with the company's own "ArmorTi" finish."... https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/more-with-less-krytos-industries-titanium-glock-slides/ I wonder how those titanium slides and titanium slides in general would stand up to the abuse at Battlefield Las Vegas ? Both titanium and stainless steel can have a problem with galling due to friction. The guns will beat themselves to death. The slide has mass for a reason. |
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Originally Posted By Bullet_: Exactly! MIM isn't a problem. The problem has been that several gun makers (looking at you, US branded mid-tier 1911 makers) have sourced their MIM parts from China, with the usual bad results. People then blame MIM. Instead of admitting that it is US assembled, with lowest bidder chinesium content. Most folks have no idea how many MIM parts are in their vehicles, motorcycles and guns. My experience with MIM failures are motorcycles and cars/trucks. That experience is limited considering the number of parts on a vehicle. When a MIM fails it really fails like totally and faster than a blink. When I worked in a large LGS we sold most brands of 1911's. What irritated me was Ximber's MIM parts. They could at least grind the mold lines off for the money they want. Most buyers of that brand are blinded by the bling so they don't notice those obvious mold lines. |
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Originally Posted By Pair_of_ACES: Awesome thread as usual Ron- how are those HK USPs holding up? How about a IWI Galil ACE? Springfield Hellion / VHS? The HK USP's have suffered the same broken spring between the three different units we have on the range. I will find out which spring in particular it is. We do have a Galil ACE on the line but it doesn't get much use. I have to come up with some new packages so it gets used more often. The Hellion is on the line about 2-3x a week. Not a big rental gun, just a impulse "purchase" because it's directly behind the cashiers on the wall. It's still semi-auto as we haven't had much free time lately. V/R Ron M Cheney |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: The HK USP's have suffered the same broken spring between the three different units we have on the range. I will find out which spring in particular it is. We do have a Galil ACE on the line but it doesn't get much use. I have to come up with some new packages so it gets used more often. The Hellion is on the line about 2-3x a week. Not a big rental gun, just a impulse "purchase" because it's directly behind the cashiers on the wall. It's still semi-auto as we haven't had much free time lately. V/R Ron M Cheney Thanks for posting all this info in your various threads, OP. A real world testing center funded by punters. I'm surprised you don't get all the R&D for the industry. Have you considered expanding to Guam? You have a lot of competitors for the Japanese tourist market there. |
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@Hendersondefense how are the Sig P320s and M17s holding up? I saw you posted a picture of an M17 that needed a sear spring replaced. What type of issues with what kind of round counts are you experiencing with the P320/M17s? How do they hold up compared to the Glocks and TP9s per round count? Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: The HK USP's have suffered the same broken spring between the three different units we have on the range. I will find out which spring in particular it is. We do have a Galil ACE on the line but it doesn't get much use. I have to come up with some new packages so it gets used more often. The Hellion is on the line about 2-3x a week. Not a big rental gun, just a impulse "purchase" because it's directly behind the cashiers on the wall. It's still semi-auto as we haven't had much free time lately. V/R Ron M Cheney How are the P320s and P365s holding up, since they are national best sellers, they must be getting the snot shot out of them at the rental counter. |