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Site News Could You Have Stopped This? Vegas Shooting Analysis with Attorneys on Retainer
8/28/2006 9:26:06 AM EDT
I was wondering if anyone had seen or heard of a 1911 with NO thumb safety, just a grip safety. Has anyone ever built one of these? I can't imagine it would be a HORRIBLE idea, and certainly one level of safety above a Glock.

Anyone?
8/28/2006 9:28:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John’s design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

And as the ages passed, men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clarity of mind being clouded by lust.

The artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo the artisans did charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. And lo, they did install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord, for they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the Lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

And being a deceitful spirit the Devil did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.

And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a “Dingus” to make them appear safe.

But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken.

Yet man did not repent of his evil ways, but continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming Satan for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol the Devil didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911’s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.
8/28/2006 9:32:38 AM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John’s design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

And as the ages passed, men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clarity of mind being clouded by lust.

The artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo the artisans did charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. And lo, they did install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord, for they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the Lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

And being a deceitful spirit the Devil did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.

And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a “Dingus” to make them appear safe.

But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken.

Yet man did not repent of his evil ways, but continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming Satan for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol the Devil didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911’s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.





I forgot to take into account the 1911 "Change-is-Bad-JMB-Will-Smite-You" Crowd.
8/28/2006 10:02:18 AM EDT
[#3]
the prototype 1911 did not have a thumb saftey. The US requested one. JMB added the thumb saftey for the gov contract.

Even in 1910 money talks.
8/28/2006 10:04:38 AM EDT
[#4]
I thought that was the grip safety that he added as per .mil specifications.
8/28/2006 10:55:41 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John’s design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

And as the ages passed, men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clarity of mind being clouded by lust.

The artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo the artisans did charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. And lo, they did install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord, for they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the Lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

And being a deceitful spirit the Devil did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.

And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a “Dingus” to make them appear safe.

But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken.

Yet man did not repent of his evil ways, but continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming Satan for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol the Devil didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911’s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.





Preach it, Brother.
8/28/2006 11:31:30 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

...snip...





I forgot to take into account the 1911 "Change-is-Bad-JMB-Will-Smite-You" Crowd.


Oh c'mon... Loosen up a bit and crack a smile once in a while. You do have to admit, its a fun read!

My first handgun was a Glock, and I happen to like (almost) all handguns.

I do have a "modified" 1911. Its tough to buy one that isn't. I like ambi-safeties, and need one on the 1911. I also like a couple other updates like night sights and accuracy jobs.

However, the Series-80 firing pin block is just wrong. Leave the trigger alone!

To address your question, I'd have to say removing the thumb safety is NOT a good idea. Removing it does not reduce the time it takes to get the gun into use. Other "no safety" designs like the Glock have other safety features in place that the 1911 does not have.

Many people already feel that carrying the 1911 cocked & locked is too dangerous. I don't agree.
Carrying it cocked & UNlocked would certainly decrease my comfort level though!
8/28/2006 11:38:31 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
I was wondering if anyone had seen or heard of a 1911 with NO thumb safety, just a grip safety. Has anyone ever built one of these? I can't imagine it would be a HORRIBLE idea, and certainly one level of safety above a Glock.

Anyone?


You could easily fill in the big thumb safety hole in the frame, and go that route..the problem becomes

1) The stock fire control pins would walk out; you'd probably have to replace them with roll pins or some such to prevent that, and
2) There'd be nothing holding the hammer in the frame...you'd have to kludge together something to hold that in, too.

Other than that..the thumb safety isn't required or necessary for it to function correctly..
8/28/2006 12:54:45 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

...snip...





I forgot to take into account the 1911 "Change-is-Bad-JMB-Will-Smite-You" Crowd.


Oh c'mon... Loosen up a bit and crack a smile once in a while. You do have to admit, its a fun read!

My first handgun was a Glock, and I happen to like (almost) all handguns.

I do have a "modified" 1911. Its tough to buy one that isn't. I like ambi-safeties, and need one on the 1911. I also like a couple other updates like night sights and accuracy jobs.

However, the Series-80 firing pin block is just wrong. Leave the trigger alone!

To address your question, I'd have to say removing the thumb safety is NOT a good idea. Removing it does not reduce the time it takes to get the gun into use. Other "no safety" designs like the Glock have other safety features in place that the 1911 does not have.

Many people already feel that carrying the 1911 cocked & locked is too dangerous. I don't agree.
Carrying it cocked & UNlocked would certainly decrease my comfort level though!


The idea came to me when I was practicing with my G19 and SA GI 1911, and realized that I was doing MUCH better with the 1911, but the G19 was easier to manipulate.

The matter of removing the thumb safety isn't to save time, but to reduce the dexterity needed to bring the gun into action under duress. Thumbing off the safety normally isn't difficult at all, and I do it very smoothly as I draw.
I wouldn't feel less safe with an unlocked 1911 in a good holster, just as I carry my G19 in a kydex IWB and don't worry it will discharge.

There is the matter of reholstering, but attention should be paid to that anyway, no matter what gun you carry.
8/28/2006 1:18:24 PM EDT
[#9]

The matter of removing the thumb safety isn't to save time, but to reduce the dexterity needed to bring the gun into action under duress.


If you assume the correct grip, with your thumb always on top of the thumb safety, then safety deactivation becomes totally automatic. There's no "dexterity" required. And no chance of accidentally bumping the safety "on".
8/28/2006 1:36:08 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

The matter of removing the thumb safety isn't to save time, but to reduce the dexterity needed to bring the gun into action under duress.


If you assume the correct grip, with your thumb always on top of the thumb safety, then safety deactivation becomes totally automatic. There's no "dexterity" required. And no chance of accidentally bumping the safety "on".


That's the thing, assuming the CORRECT grip. It requires a degree of fine motor skills. I submit that the weapon would be just as effective and safe without the thumb safety.
8/28/2006 1:58:24 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shamelessly stolen from somewhere on the Internet... I forget where.

...and then there was the .45 ACP

...snip...





I forgot to take into account the 1911 "Change-is-Bad-JMB-Will-Smite-You" Crowd.


Oh c'mon... Loosen up a bit and crack a smile once in a while. You do have to admit, its a fun read!

My first handgun was a Glock, and I happen to like (almost) all handguns.

I do have a "modified" 1911. Its tough to buy one that isn't. I like ambi-safeties, and need one on the 1911. I also like a couple other updates like night sights and accuracy jobs.

However, the Series-80 firing pin block is just wrong. Leave the trigger alone!

To address your question, I'd have to say removing the thumb safety is NOT a good idea. Removing it does not reduce the time it takes to get the gun into use. Other "no safety" designs like the Glock have other safety features in place that the 1911 does not have.

Many people already feel that carrying the 1911 cocked & locked is too dangerous. I don't agree.
Carrying it cocked & UNlocked would certainly decrease my comfort level though!


The idea came to me when I was practicing with my G19 and SA GI 1911, and realized that I was doing MUCH better with the 1911, but the G19 was easier to manipulate.

The matter of removing the thumb safety isn't to save time, but to reduce the dexterity needed to bring the gun into action under duress. Thumbing off the safety normally isn't difficult at all, and I do it very smoothly as I draw.
I wouldn't feel less safe with an unlocked 1911 in a good holster, just as I carry my G19 in a kydex IWB and don't worry it will discharge.

There is the matter of reholstering, but attention should be paid to that anyway, no matter what gun you carry.

One reason I like the 1911 so much is that I find it very easy to shoot well.

Shooting a handgun is easy.
SHooting a handgun well is much more difficult.
8/28/2006 3:44:32 PM EDT
[#12]


8/28/2006 4:48:08 PM EDT
[#13]
8/28/2006 7:47:20 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
You could easily fill in the big thumb safety hole in the frame, and go that route..the problem becomes

1) The stock fire control pins would walk out; you'd probably have to replace them with roll pins or some such to prevent that, and
2) There'd be nothing holding the hammer in the frame...you'd have to kludge together something to hold that in, too.

Other than that..the thumb safety isn't required or necessary for it to function correctly..


And you'd have to have something putting pressure on the rear plunger, otherwise you'd lose the plunger assembly.  A metal plate contoured to fit under the left grip, with flanges in the proper spots would take care of all these problems.
8/28/2006 8:47:20 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm not really wondering IF it's possible. Pretty much anything can be engineered and fabricated. I was speculating on whether or not doing so would make the weapon easier to use.
8/28/2006 9:17:38 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
I'm not really wondering IF it's possible. Pretty much anything can be engineered and fabricated. I was speculating on whether or not doing so would make the weapon easier to use.


I don't think so.  You are free to ignore the thumb safety right now, if that's what you want.

However, with some training and practice, manipulation of the thumb safety will become an unconscious operation.  It certainly doesn't seem to hinder the IDPA and USPSA competitors who use some form of the 1911.  Now you will see grip safeties deactivated, but that's another story.
8/29/2006 9:36:22 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
www.m1911.org/images/origgun.jpg
img201.imageshack.us/img201/3498/19105zi7.th.jpg
img201.imageshack.us/img201/4052/19106pp3.th.jpg




Very interesting pics.

I suppose that it would have been acceptable to carry hammer down on a loaded chamber then cocking as you get on target. If you think about it, thats what everybody was used to anyway.
8/29/2006 10:48:47 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
www.m1911.org/images/origgun.jpg
img201.imageshack.us/img201/3498/19105zi7.th.jpg</a>
img201.imageshack.us/img201/4052/19106pp3.th.jpg</a>




Very interesting pics.

I suppose that it would have been acceptable to carry hammer down on a loaded chamber then cocking as you get on target. If you think about it, thats what everybody was used to anyway.


JMB idea was to carry cocked much like the XD of today, or to carry hammer down on an empty chamber, the way all single action wheel guns should be.

He felt that with the grip saftey there was no need for a thumb saftey. Army did not agree.

What i find funny is how a large % of ipsc shooters make the grip saftey non functional.
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