Posted: 1/28/2013 1:15:12 PM EDT
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My Colt Series 80 Mark IV has the short 1 1/2" guide rod. Is it better to have a full length guide rod installed? ... |
| The full length guide rod is the answer to a question no one needed to ask. Every USGI 1911 came with the 'short' guide rod and it's never been a problem. Other than adding weight to the front of the pistol, a full length guide rod does absolutely nothing for the reliability of a 1911. |
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I do run a Heine weighted guide rod in my IPSC limited Colt gov't. It does provide enhanced recoil control and does improve double taps and overall accuracy, in terms of rapid shot strings to the A zone
. In a service pistol, I agree that the extended rod has no purpose. Recoil spring binding and buckling are issues were exaggerated by marketers to sell after market parts. In a comp gun, they do serve a purpose, in service gun, no purpose. John Browning would have thought of it first if it were necessary. |
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Hell, I broke three tungsten Heinie rods -- I knew exactly when two of them failed because I heard them tinkling along the concrete floor of the indoor range as they launched.
After the third one snapped I went back to standard GI guides and plugs except on a competition STI pistol. |
| I run FLGR in all my 1911 in the 2 peice design by Wilson Combat. Never had any issues with them coming loose, breaking or anything else except now my slide springs stack straight every time and last longer on top of a tighter lock up. All it takes is a few turns of a allen wrence to drop out the front half then it takes down just like a GI guide rod. If thats to much work for you, you may want to stay with the GI rod. I meen afterall it takes me about 5 seconds longer to strip my gun with a FLGR than it does without one and time is everything :) |
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I run FLGR in all my 1911 in the 2 peice design by Wilson Combat. Never had any issues with them coming loose, breaking or anything else except now my slide springs stack straight every time and last longer on top of a tighter lock up. All it takes is a few turns of a allen wrence to drop out the front half then it takes down just like a GI guide rod. If thats to much work for you, you may want to stay with the GI rod. I meen afterall it takes me about 5 seconds longer to strip my gun with a FLGR than it does without one and time is everything :) Because the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol, Mr. Browning never intended you to have to carry an allen wrench to strip one--even if it only takes a couple extra seconds. Everyone uses a 1911 according to his own needs, however, so if needing a tool to strip doesn't bother you, ok--it's a personal choice. One the other hand, if you're relying on a guide rod to help your 1911 lock up better, I don't think the pistol is tuned right. As for spring life, well, the primary effect on spring life is the repeated compression-recovery cycle. While, in theory, a badly-aligned spring that rubbed repeatedly and oddly against itself could wear prematurely, I'd guess that same result could occur with a spring rubbing against a FLGR. I'm curious--have you quantified this, or is it more of an impression you've had? How many rounds do you go through between spring replacements using an FLGR, and how many using a GI guide rod? If someone wants a full-length guide rod, great. But based on several decades of building and running 1911s (hard), you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that one is needed. (Just for the record, I do have them in a couple pistols I bought that way. They're shooters--not carry guns--so I've never seen any reason to remove them. But if I ever see fit to rebuild those pistols, I'll likely use GI rods.) |
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I run FLGR in all my 1911 in the 2 peice design by Wilson Combat. Never had any issues with them coming loose, breaking or anything else except now my slide springs stack straight every time and last longer on top of a tighter lock up. All it takes is a few turns of a allen wrence to drop out the front half then it takes down just like a GI guide rod. If thats to much work for you, you may want to stay with the GI rod. I meen afterall it takes me about 5 seconds longer to strip my gun with a FLGR than it does without one and time is everything :) Because the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol, Mr. Browning never intended you to have to carry an allen wrench to strip one--even if it only takes a couple extra seconds. Everyone uses a 1911 according to his own needs, however, so if needing a tool to strip doesn't bother you, ok--it's a personal choice. One the other hand, if you're relying on a guide rod to help your 1911 lock up better, I don't think the pistol is tuned right. As for spring life, well, the primary effect on spring life is the repeated compression-recovery cycle. While, in theory, a badly-aligned spring that rubbed repeatedly and oddly against itself could wear prematurely, I'd guess that same result could occur with a spring rubbing against a FLGR. I'm curious--have you quantified this, or is it more of an impression you've had? How many rounds do you go through between spring replacements using an FLGR, and how many using a GI guide rod? If someone wants a full-length guide rod, great. But based on several decades of building and running 1911s (hard), you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that one is needed. (Just for the record, I do have them in a couple pistols I bought that way. They're shooters--not carry guns--so I've never seen any reason to remove them. But if I ever see fit to rebuild those pistols, I'll likely use GI rods.) To each their own. I didn't try to convince anyone of anything. Just gave an honest answer to the OP's question which I already knew would draw out people like you. It always does. You seem to think I know nothing about JB's design when all I did was improve on a already good design. People have been doing it for many years so it's pretty hard for a simpleton like myself to beleive they are all wrong. My own experiences have proved it to me and thats all that matters to me. Again, I just answered his question from my experiences and nothing else. If using (NOT CARRYING) an allen wrench is to hard for you then leave it GI. Thats fine with me any most likely many, many, others. It's only necessary when stripping the pistol to clean it which I always do after use, but I'm sure you already knew that. Jump on someone that might want to argue with you, I'm not that someone. Have a great day. 
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I hate needing a tool to field strip. Never fails you can't find the wrench when something goes wrong at the range. That is my reasoning for swapping out the FLGR that came on my TRP for a regular GI rod. Tool? All you need is a car or house key unless your barrel bushing is super tight and that has nothing to do with a full length guide rod. I've had the same wilson full length guide rod on my series 70 since '89 without issue. |
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To each their own. I didn't try to convince anyone of anything. Just gave an honest answer to the OP's question which I already knew would draw out people like you. It always does. You seem to think I know nothing about JB's design when all I did was improve on a already good design. People have been doing it for many years so it's pretty hard for a simpleton like myself to beleive they are all wrong. My own experiences have proved it to me and thats all that matters to me. Again, I just answered his question from my experiences and nothing else. If using (NOT CARRYING) an allen wrench is to hard for you then leave it GI. Thats fine with me any most likely many, many, others. It's only necessary when stripping the pistol to clean it which I always do after use, but I'm sure you already knew that. Jump on someone that might want to argue with you, I'm not that someone. Have a great day.
I didn't read his post as a call-out of any kind, but more of a "why do you feel this way?" type question designed to ask you to share your experiences - which clearly were overt enough for you to form and opinion and go to the trouble of sharing it with others (in spite of your desire to avoid argument). So, would you might sharing your perspective on how you feel it makes your pistol better? I have run a FLGR setup before (and the extra mass/balance was nice), but I can't say there was any noticeable difference in operation or reliability. It's an honest question without any intent to argue. <--- someone who bought into the marketing hype of FLGR's in the past, but is too dumb to be an expert on the topic. 
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My Colt Series 80 Mark IV has the short 1 1/2" guide rod. Is it better to have a full length guide rod installed? ... I have 1911's with both FLGR and GIGR's never had any trouble with either. For the FLGR I use the SS Wilson one piece in one, and my Colt has the stock FLGR in it. My Springfield GI has a GI rod. The only difference I have noticed is the actions with the FLGR feel tighter. I would say it is a personal choice, but I dont find much difference good or bad in either. |
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To each their own. I didn't try to convince anyone of anything. Just gave an honest answer to the OP's question which I already knew would draw out people like you. It always does. You seem to think I know nothing about JB's design when all I did was improve on a already good design. People have been doing it for many years so it's pretty hard for a simpleton like myself to beleive they are all wrong. My own experiences have proved it to me and thats all that matters to me. Again, I just answered his question from my experiences and nothing else. If using (NOT CARRYING) an allen wrench is to hard for you then leave it GI. Thats fine with me any most likely many, many, others. It's only necessary when stripping the pistol to clean it which I always do after use, but I'm sure you already knew that. Jump on someone that might want to argue with you, I'm not that someone. Have a great day.
I didn't read his post as a call-out of any kind, but more of a "why do you feel this way?" type question designed to ask you to share your experiences - which clearly were overt enough for you to form and opinion and go to the trouble of sharing it with others (in spite of your desire to avoid argument). So, would you might sharing your perspective on how you feel it makes your pistol better? I have run a FLGR setup before (and the extra mass/balance was nice), but I can't say there was any noticeable difference in operation or reliability. It's an honest question without any intent to argue. <--- someone who bought into the marketing hype of FLGR's in the past, but is too dumb to be an expert on the topic. I can only speak from my personal experiences. I use 2 peice full length rod in all of mine simply because they lock up tighter because of the leverage exerted on the front end that a GI rod just dont do. The spring question I can't speak to because I have yet to ever have to replace one. I state out with 22 lb springs. But I can say that after every cleaning when I disassemble the pistol the spring lays straight with no deformation what so ever. To the comment on physical ware, there is none. I use a light film of oil on the rod so they run silent and leave no markings on the rod or the spring. Disassembly is the same as with the GI rod set up after turning out the front half of the rod. Most the time I never use an allen wrench because I can usually lock the slide back and grab it with my hand and turn it out, BUT I do keep the allen wrench in my cleaning kit simply because this is not always the case. I have 4 1911's that came from the factory with GI rods and when I replaced them I could definately see and feel the difference. You can even feel less friction between the slide and frame. I have one that came with a FLGR but was 1 peice so I replaced it with a 2 peice for ease of dissasembly only. I know to loyalists they are nothing more than hype and I beleive this is because they have never really give them a chance to prove themselves. When top Custom 1911 manufactureres actually send them out in their own new guns there certainly can't be anything wrong with them and my own experiences have proved to me beyond any shadow of a doubt, they are an improvement. They certainly are NOT part of the original JB design, but to think that design can't be improved on, just aint thinkin. The 1911 pistol has evolved more since it's inception than any other hand gun ever made. To me slamming the FLGR is just like slamming every other part that has been improved on in the 1911, like extended controls, different hammers and triggers, back strap safties, mag wells and on and on. What's the difference.? All these things do is taylor a fine pistol to the specific owner. None of these are detramental to the gun given it's particular use by the owner. Like the bobtail frame, I absolutely hate the looks of these pistols, BUT they are soaking up a large part of the market so for a lot of people, they are just the thing. I am not going to slight this mod simply because it's not for me. Oh the added weight of a FLGR in stainless anyway is not even remotely noticable to me. Maybe a Tungston rod would, dont know because I'm not in this for added weight, just extended life time, added accuracy, and a smoother operating pistol with no adverse side affects. These are my opinions based on my personal experiences and I know others may and probably do vary. None of these comments are up for argumentation, just my honest opinions based on my experiences.
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I have had them on a few of my 1911s. The extra 10 seconds it takes to unscrew it is no big deal.
I personally think it makes them shoot a little smoother and I consider a FLGR an upgrade. If you don't, that is fine too. The real problem with a series 80 is the firing pin safety and plunger assembly. A safety for a safety is not needed. |
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I run FLGR in all my 1911 in the 2 peice design by Wilson Combat. Never had any issues with them coming loose, breaking or anything else except now my slide springs stack straight every time and last longer on top of a tighter lock up. All it takes is a few turns of a allen wrence to drop out the front half then it takes down just like a GI guide rod. If thats to much work for you, you may want to stay with the GI rod. I meen afterall it takes me about 5 seconds longer to strip my gun with a FLGR than it does without one and time is everything :) Because the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol, Mr. Browning never intended you to have to carry an allen wrench to strip one--even if it only takes a couple extra seconds. Everyone uses a 1911 according to his own needs, however, so if needing a tool to strip doesn't bother you, ok--it's a personal choice. One the other hand, if you're relying on a guide rod to help your 1911 lock up better, I don't think the pistol is tuned right. As for spring life, well, the primary effect on spring life is the repeated compression-recovery cycle. While, in theory, a badly-aligned spring that rubbed repeatedly and oddly against itself could wear prematurely, I'd guess that same result could occur with a spring rubbing against a FLGR. I'm curious--have you quantified this, or is it more of an impression you've had? How many rounds do you go through between spring replacements using an FLGR, and how many using a GI guide rod? If someone wants a full-length guide rod, great. But based on several decades of building and running 1911s (hard), you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that one is needed. (Just for the record, I do have them in a couple pistols I bought that way. They're shooters--not carry guns--so I've never seen any reason to remove them. But if I ever see fit to rebuild those pistols, I'll likely use GI rods.) To each their own. I didn't try to convince anyone of anything. Just gave an honest answer to the OP's question which I already knew would draw out people like you. It always does. You seem to think I know nothing about JB's design when all I did was improve on a already good design. People have been doing it for many years so it's pretty hard for a simpleton like myself to beleive they are all wrong. My own experiences have proved it to me and thats all that matters to me. Again, I just answered his question from my experiences and nothing else. If using (NOT CARRYING) an allen wrench is to hard for you then leave it GI. Thats fine with me any most likely many, many, others. It's only necessary when stripping the pistol to clean it which I always do after use, but I'm sure you already knew that. Jump on someone that might want to argue with you, I'm not that someone. Have a great day.
Sorry I didn't see this the other day or would have replied earlier. As someone else noted--I wasn't "jumping on" anyone. Nor do I claim to know everything about Browning's design. But I do have 30+ years experience with 1911s--carrying them in the military and on the street, shooting them in both bullseye and practical competition, and building them for a variety of purposes. While I'm not arrogant enough to claim "expertise", neither am I an uninformed neophyte. So when someone says something about the design that I haven't observed myself, I question them. I would truly like to know what you've seen that I have not. There's no need to take that as a personal attack. If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I made it clear--if you don't mind using a tool to field strip, then feel free to run a FLGR. That's really the only downside I see to them. Admittedly, there is also a slim possibility that a 2-piece unit might come apart during use--which would be undesirable--but I think a dab of locktite and regular maintenance pretty much eliminates that risk so I don't consider it much of a problem. BUT while acknowledging that the FLGR isn't a horrible, horrible thing, I'm also asking you (or anyone) to explain its benefits. You claimed that a FLGR gives you longer recoil spring life. I asked if you've quantified that, or if it's just an impression you have. I'd welcome your input. I have heard some speed shooters say that a heavy FLGR helps reduce muzzle flip. That may be true...although I'd think there could be better ways to accomplish that more effectively. But let's get back on track--you seem to think your FLGRs are beneficial additions to your 1911s. Can you please provide more of an explanation why you believe that? Ah, one last note: I didn't mean to offend you with the comment about your pistol maybe not being tuned right. In my experience, a match-grade lock-up can be (and should be) accomplished by fitting the barrel to the slide, the barrel to the bushing, the bushing to the slide and the slide to the frame. I'm not sure how or why a FLGR would enhance that lock-up. If you've discovered a need I haven't, I welcome your input. i am ALWAYS looking for an additional edge in accuracy. |
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I hate needing a tool to field strip. Never fails you can't find the wrench when something goes wrong at the range. That is my reasoning for swapping out the FLGR that came on my TRP for a regular GI rod. Tool? All you need is a car or house key unless your barrel bushing is super tight and that has nothing to do with a full length guide rod. I've had the same wilson full length guide rod on my series 70 since '89 without issue. Sorry, the TRP one is a two piece, you have to put a hex tool in it to unscrew the two pieces and get it out. And as far as witching for a one piece, again, don't really need to have to find something to hold the edge down. It may not annoy you, but I like to make things as simple as possible. |
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Hmm, I now see others here have added their opinions that pistols with an FLGR "lock up tighter because of the leverage exerted on the front end that a GI rod just dont do." I'm curious about this observation (and I hope no one will take this as an attack!)...
If these pistols rely on guide rod "leverage" to lock up, I'm guessing there must be some play left in the frame-slide-barrel-bushing fitment. Is that correct? If you take one of these pistols and swap the FLGR with a standard GI guide rod, how tightly are they fitted? I'm trying to phrase this in an unoffensive way, but that may not be possible...I'm just wondering if in some cases, gun builders might be using this FLGR leverage as a shortcut to get a decent lock-up without spending the extra time to match-fit things. Now, there might be a good reason for that. Maybe they're purposefully leaving the frame-slide fit a little loose, for example, to gain a little extra reliability while shooting dirty? I only match-fit my match guns, so I don't worry so much about reliability (compared to my carry guns). These pistols will be fired in controlled environments, with quality ammo, and will be cleaned religiously, so the tight fitment doesn't cause me any concern. If you're trying to get that sort of lock-up out of a looser pistol, then maybe the FLGR gives you some help. Is that what you're talking about? I also have to comment on the point that some top 1911 builders send them out in their new pistols. Yes, many do. And again, if you don't object to using a tool to strip, there is nothing "wrong" with them. But we should not infer that they're needed just because custom builders supply them in very expensive pistols. Those builders also supply beautiful custom grips and flawless shiny finishes--which do not necessarily make the pistol function any better. You might just as well ask yourself why the MEU (SOC), designed by men who take the function of their pistols very, very seriously, doesn't have an FLGR. (Or at least didn't, last time I checked. If they've changed, I'd love to know what rod they're using.) Again--1911s are used for different purposes, and there's nothing wrong with using different parts depending upon your use. |
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Hmm, I now see others here have added their opinions that pistols with an FLGR "lock up tighter because of the leverage exerted on the front end that a GI rod just dont do." I'm curious about this observation (and I hope no one will take this as an attack!)... If these pistols rely on guide rod "leverage" to lock up, I'm guessing there must be some play left in the frame-slide-barrel-bushing fitment. Is that correct? If you take one of these pistols and swap the FLGR with a standard GI guide rod, how tightly are they fitted? I'm trying to phrase this in an unoffensive way, but that may not be possible...I'm just wondering if in some cases, gun builders might be using this FLGR leverage as a shortcut to get a decent lock-up without spending the extra time to match-fit things. Now, there might be a good reason for that. Maybe they're purposefully leaving the frame-slide fit a little loose, for example, to gain a little extra reliability while shooting dirty? I only match-fit my match guns, so I don't worry so much about reliability (compared to my carry guns). These pistols will be fired in controlled environments, with quality ammo, and will be cleaned religiously, so the tight fitment doesn't cause me any concern. If you're trying to get that sort of lock-up out of a looser pistol, then maybe the FLGR gives you some help. Is that what you're talking about? I also have to comment on the point that some top 1911 builders send them out in their new pistols. Yes, many do. And again, if you don't object to using a tool to strip, there is nothing "wrong" with them. But we should not infer that they're needed just because custom builders supply them in very expensive pistols. Those builders also supply beautiful custom grips and flawless shiny finishes--which do not necessarily make the pistol function any better. You might just as well ask yourself why the MEU (SOC), designed by men who take the function of their pistols very, very seriously, doesn't have an FLGR. (Or at least didn't, last time I checked. If they've changed, I'd love to know what rod they're using.) Again--1911s are used for different purposes, and there's nothing wrong with using different parts depending upon your use. Please dont anyone take my comments personally and I dis admittedly take an earlier response kind of personal and that was MY mistake which I sincerly apologize for. Now to address the lock up question, saying the added leverage in the front of the pistol exsist dont necessarly meen the other parts are poorly fitted. I have a couple that with no barrel or rod in them at all are so tight there is no movement in any direction between the 2 peices so in these it is extremely hard to feel the leverage affect at the front of the pistol, but with even the slightest movment between the 2 I have found the FLGR to simply eliminate it dur to the added leverage. This all boils down to the use of someones personal fireare. Is it NECESSARY for your use.? Only you can answer that. For most I can certainly see there is no need at all, but for my use I simply prefer every accuracy edge I can squeeze out of the pistol without sacrificing depemdability because I carry all of my hand guns at different times and they simply must be 100% dependable for me to be willing to do that. The only compitition I shoot anymore is local IDPA matches which are mostly just for fun but it still must perform flawlessly or I go home all pissed because my pistol let me down. The only flaws I will accept are when I do something stupid and can't blame it on the gun. This attitude has made me a far better shooter than when I was younger and thought I knew everything. As far as I am concerned and 1911, reguardless of brand or model needs ONLY what the owner requires for his or her intended use. The original design was for an intended purpose which over the years has changed drastically for most people and not changed at all for some. So at best all I can do is like I originally posted is my experiences with my pistols for my intended purposes. To answer an earlier question, appariently not only I, but others have not read the complete responses of some. But again, I will state I cannot answer to the lifetime of the spring in either aspect, simply because I don't use the GI rod set up and havne since I saw for myself the difference the FLGR makes in mine nor can I attest to spring life in the use of a FLGR because I have yet to ever have to replace one for many thousands of rounds. I start out with new 22lb springs which probably are not still that strong but until I have experienced a need to change one I may never know how long they might last. Another thing I should add is not to start another discuession but I also run Wilson shock buffs in all of my 1911's and any other gun that they are made for which to date is, 19 different Glocks, a couple 10-22's, several AK's and SKS's. Now weather this contributes to spring life or not, I have no idea, I just know they feel a lot better to shoot with them. As a rule I never pay any attention to the so-called experts, simply because they have never done what I have done nor do they use their guns the way I use mine. I am always open to new ideas no matter where they come from and I must admitt the best things I have ever found that have done the most for me came from other people just like all of you. If I live to the ripe old age of 200 I have no desire to become an expert on anything, but I will continue to follow what has always worked for me and be willing to at least try new ideas. 
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It adds weight, the end. The 1911 already has plenty of weight to tame recoil. OP, I have a bunch of FLGRs sitting in boxes doing nothing so if you want to try one, PM me your address and I'll send you one for free. It will free up room in my parts bin. Thats funny,I've been trying to buy a couple for months and no one has replied to any of my adds on 3 different forums including this one. If you have a couple stainless 2peice rods with bushing I would be more than happy to buy them from you.....I wont run a 1911 without one......LMK. |
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It adds weight, the end. The 1911 already has plenty of weight to tame recoil. OP, I have a bunch of FLGRs sitting in boxes doing nothing so if you want to try one, PM me your address and I'll send you one for free. It will free up room in my parts bin. Thats funny,I've been trying to buy a couple for months and no one has replied to any of my adds on 3 different forums including this one. If you have a couple stainless 2peice rods with bushing I would be more than happy to buy them from you.....I wont run a 1911 without one......LMK. Not trying to start a ****storm with you, but I would really like to know why you are so dedicated to them. Serious question. I have no use for them, but I would like to hear what your reasons for using them are. |
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It adds weight, the end. The 1911 already has plenty of weight to tame recoil. OP, I have a bunch of FLGRs sitting in boxes doing nothing so if you want to try one, PM me your address and I'll send you one for free. It will free up room in my parts bin. Thats funny,I've been trying to buy a couple for months and no one has replied to any of my adds on 3 different forums including this one. If you have a couple stainless 2peice rods with bushing I would be more than happy to buy them from you.....I wont run a 1911 without one......LMK. Not trying to start a ****storm with you, but I would really like to know why you are so dedicated to them. Serious question. I have no use for them, but I would like to hear what your reasons for using them are. Read my earlier posts, they break it down very specifically . |
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It adds weight, the end. The 1911 already has plenty of weight to tame recoil. OP, I have a bunch of FLGRs sitting in boxes doing nothing so if you want to try one, PM me your address and I'll send you one for free. It will free up room in my parts bin. Thats funny,I've been trying to buy a couple for months and no one has replied to any of my adds on 3 different forums including this one. If you have a couple stainless 2peice rods with bushing I would be more than happy to buy them from you.....I wont run a 1911 without one......LMK. I only have one piece FLGRs. |