Posted: 5/8/2011 4:28:33 PM EDT
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise!
I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Price is not a factor, metal and plastic framed guns are comparable in price. Weight is not an issue as A few oz is not enough for me to worry about. Right now, I refuse to buy a polymer pistol. Tell me what I am missing out on, not individual gun-wise, but with plastic in general. |
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise! I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Plastic is cheap? Priced a H&K before? 
Polymer is indeed stronger oz per oz versus steel or aluminum. There's some marketing promos where Glock parked a semi on one of their guns for a while, drove it off the gun & then loaded it & fired it. Not disagreeing that polymer has no soul, but I trade that off with the strength of polymer & its resistence to tarnishing & scratching. For the record, I own steel, alloy & polymer. This is what makes America great: choice! 
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| Plastic is a little easier to maintain. Weight isn't really an issue for concealed carry, but when you're a cop and you've got 10 lbs of gear hanging on you all day it does make a difference, which is one reason polymer came to be so popular. I prefer steel. A nice 1911 or S&W wheelgun are my favorites, but there's nothing wrong with plastics, and they do their job. |
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My crystal ball says this OP will close in SYSTEM MESSAGE and LOCK.
So, I'm in and out before the LOCK. I've got both plastic fantastics and heavy metal. It's a stretch for me to have a desire to pick the fantastics up. The Glock is for Glock shoots and just to say I have one. My Springfield, well it's chambered 357sig. It's a once a year range toy. My 1911s see both range and CCW time. My Hi-Power would see both if I ever get it done. There's a Beretta in the mix too. These are my go to choices. The plastic collects dust. So if your like me. WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION 
There is no convincing, so why the challenge ?? |
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1911smith, because I want to like plastic since so many guns are plastic. However, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things. Great disigns and they drop the ball with the frame material.
Bobcole, I meant low quality, not low price. If im paying $900 for a pistol, it better be metal. as far as maintnence and rusting, the slide is metal, so thats a non issue also. I dont care about wieght, for the same sized gun, wont the metal be stronger and more durable? Id love to pay $100 more and get an m&p or glock that was metal for my 2nd pistol(might anyway) but I just dont understand why companies are ALL going plastic. Maybe Im just an old fashioned 23 year old. I know plastic is fine for short term duty use, but I want to be able to hand my guns down to my great grandkids, and Im just picturing myself handing them a slide with a cracked/melted/chiped plastic frame  . Honestly we only have 30 year old guns to look at to see effects.
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, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things.. Here's your issue right here and there is no talking your way into plastic. Your going to have to shoot your way into plastic and that disgusted feeling in your gut, well you'll need to get past that first. |
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, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things.. Here's your issue right here and there is no talking your way into plastic. Your going to have to shoot your way into plastic and that disgusted feeling in your gut, well you'll need to get past that first. maybe, if someone had solid data that plastic was superior from an engineering standpoint(not wieght or cost) Id jump on it, but Im pretty sure companies are putting out inferior materials because they can. my brother paid $100 more for a glock than I did for my cz and its plastic, less parts, and a simpler design. The only thing better is the melonite coating. 
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How many broken 1911 slide pics are out there?
Have you ever shot a "plastic" handgun?
Come back when you have shot all these: 1. S&W M&P 2. Glock 3. HK 4. XD  shot the 1st two. Shot the glock really well and like the grip angle(performance not the feel  ) Are you suggesting that since plastic is softer, it is induces less stress on the slide? I could definitely see that.
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, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things.. Here's your issue right here and there is no talking your way into plastic. Your going to have to shoot your way into plastic and that disgusted feeling in your gut, well you'll need to get past that first. maybe, if someone had solid data that plastic was superior from an engineering standpoint(not wieght or cost) Id jump on it, but Im pretty sure companies are putting out inferior materials because they can. my brother paid $100 more for a glock than I did for my cz and its plastic, less parts, and a simpler design. The only thing better is the melonite coating. You are not going to find data showing one material is superior to another as the weapons are all designed around their specific materials. What you should do, rather than obsessing over the materials, is assess each weapon on its individual merits. Reliability, accuracy, durability, access to replacement parts, aftermarket accessories, etc. etc. A Glock is plastic, a Beretta is aluminum, a 1911 is steel (usually). Which is better? What is the use? The environment? There are probably those out there still not sold on an AR-15's use of aluminum and plastic. What is this argument about anyway? |
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Plastic lets you make the frame and grips as one cheap molded part. How much is front strap checkering on a 1911 run? It also lets you make the grip slimmer as you don't need additional bolt on grip panels. Molding is cheap, machining is expensive. "No soul" = no rust, no blaring scratches, no maintenance. I've gone from carrying a full size stainless 1911 to a glock 19. It feels like its half the weight. Huge difference for carry. If you want shear numbers for strength, you can look up youngs modulus, fatigue, etc. Its all well documented. And for this application it doesn't freaking matter.
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, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things.. Here's your issue right here and there is no talking your way into plastic. Your going to have to shoot your way into plastic and that disgusted feeling in your gut, well you'll need to get past that first. maybe, if someone had solid data that plastic was superior from an engineering standpoint(not wieght or cost) Id jump on it, but Im pretty sure companies are putting out inferior materials because they can. my brother paid $100 more for a glock than I did for my cz and its plastic, less parts, and a simpler design. The only thing better is the melonite coating. If needing emperical data, well here you go. 
Plastic outsells metal every year, been around for decades and I'm sure someone can produce a picture of a 25 plus year old Glock. |
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My plastic guns aren't by any means, my "favorite" guns, or my most expensive guns, and perhaps not even my "best" guns by some criteria; but they are the ones I count on every day and the ones I want in my hand if things turn to shit.
They are great tools for what they need to do. |
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise! I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Price is not a factor, metal and plastic framed guns are comparable in price. Weight is not an issue as A few oz is not enough for me to worry about. Right now, I refuse to buy a polymer pistol. Tell me what I am missing out on, not individual gun-wise, but with plastic in general. Soul, what a silly concept. If that same piece of steel was a mower blade, would it still have soul? How about that aluminum. If it was a case of Sam's choice soda, would you feel the same soul? The reality is that a firearm is a tool, the soul you apply to it is all in your head. Find the best tool, that does the best job, for the price your willing to pay. I shoot my G21 better than any other handgun, so I use it all the time.The frame material means nothing, how it works is everything. |
| I like the little extra weight and more substantial feel of an alloy or steel frame gun. I've never really been impressed with the fit and finish of polymer framed guns either, but it's a tool that's meant to be shot not just stared at and admired so that's a moot point. I think it's more important to find a pistol you shoot well not what it's made of. |
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Quoted: as far as maintnence and rusting, the slide is metal, so thats a non issue also. Most top quality polymer pistols have metal treatments that make these parts 99.9% saltwater corrosion resistant. Quoted: I dont care about wieght, for the same sized gun, wont the metal be stronger and more durable? No, it's the exact opposite. Quoted: but I just dont understand why companies are ALL going plastic. Because it is the best material for the application. Quoted: I know plastic is fine for short term duty use, but I want to be able to hand my guns down to my great grandkids, and Im just picturing myself handing them a slide with a cracked/melted/chiped plastic frame . A polymer pistol will out last a metallic framed pistol in any test imaginable. Round count/weather exposure/torture test/whatever. Quoted: Honestly we only have 30 year old guns to look at to see effects. The Nylon 66 is nearly a half century old and is perfectly fine. 5,000 years from now archaeologists will be digging up Glock frames and putting them in museums. |
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I used to think the same thing.
Plastic is fine. The only metal handguns that I own now are either vanity guns or collectors pieces. It is pure ignorance to deny the dominance of polymer handguns on the modern compact defensive pistol market. I fought and swore off Glock for the longest time. Then I learned a little bit about actually handling a gun. If I don't sell off my remaining DA/SA and single-action semi-autos by mid-summer, I'll be surprised. The only centerfire handguns that I honestly see in my future are more 9mm glocks. It's all about the trigger reset and familiarity. |
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My plastic guns aren't by any means, my "favorite" guns, or my most expensive guns, and perhaps not even my "best" guns by some criteria; but they are the ones I count on every day and the ones I want in my hand if things turn to shit. They are great tools for what they need to do. +1 |
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Bobcole, I meant low quality, not low price. If im paying $900 for a pistol, it better be metal. So you're saying H&K, FN, Glock, etc. are all "low quality"?
as far as maintnence and rusting, the slide is metal, so thats a non issue also. I dont care about wieght, for the same sized gun, wont the metal be stronger and more durable? I know plastic is fine for short term duty use, but I want to be able to hand my guns down to my great grandkids, and Im just picturing myself handing them a slide with a cracked/melted/chiped plastic frame.
Once again, oz per oz, polymer IS stronger than alloy or steel. You claim that weight has no bearing for you, fine. But it doesn't change the strength properties of polymer & many mfgrs use it for said weight savings. As for longevity, there's thousands upon thousands of Gen 1 Glocks out there with hundreds of thousands of rds thru them. Given the properties of metal fatigue, this isn't always the case of a steel/alloy framed handgun. You don't like polymer, fine. But don't make yourself look silly by saying it's not as strong as metal framed guns because that just isn't so. Excepting Taurus & Ruger, the quality of polymer framed guns is right there with the metal ones. It may not be as soulful, but it IS quality. |
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What exactly do you want us to say? Of course steel and aluminum have higher tensile strengths... but it doesn't matter. As an engineer you pick the material that is suited to the application. For low stress components you don't need, or want, hardened steel(or even worse cheap cast steel...)
The reason why we use plastics is because they are cheap and easily processed. We can create extremely complex geometries to very tight tolerances in a relatively cheap process. Furthermore there is no finishing required for corrosion resistance, the part weighs less, takes less time to make, and is again using cheaper materials. The poly framed pistols on the market have shown themselves to be just as durable as their steel framed counterparts(and I think some would argue more durable than some aluminum framed guns....). So what do YOU get as consumer? You get a higher quality product. Fewer corners are cut and more can be invested into quality control when the cost to make the part and assembly is reduced. But lets also be reasonable about this- the material used in the frame of the gun is no more an indicator of quality manufacturing than the color of the grips. The proof is in the pudding- we have 25+ years of hard data on quality polymer pistols being abused and setting a new standard in reliability and durability. And the polymers we have today are superior to what we had 25 years ago... As for your perception there is nothing I can do about that. If you associate plastic with cheap McDonald's toys then that is your loss. You should understand that generalizing "plastics" is like generalizing "metals." You wouldn't make a gun out of the same Chinese pot-metal castings that some cheap toys are made out of just like you wouldn't use the same cheap polystyrene that many toys use. |
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How many broken 1911 slide pics are out there? A dozen or so. Also plenty of cracked frames and other failed parts. Metal isn't indestructible. http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5058/img1556m.jpg |
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise! I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Price is not a factor, metal and plastic framed guns are comparable in price. Weight is not an issue as A few oz is not enough for me to worry about. Right now, I refuse to buy a polymer pistol. Tell me what I am missing out on, not individual gun-wise, but with plastic in general. Hope you neer plan to get an AR-15 those things have lots of cheap crappy plastic
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What exactly do you want us to say? Of course steel and aluminum have higher tensile strengths... but it doesn't matter. As an engineer you pick the material that is suited to the application. For low stress components you don't need, or want, hardened steel(or even worse cheap cast steel...) The reason why we use plastics is because they are cheap and easily processed. We can create extremely complex geometries to very tight tolerances in a relatively cheap process. Furthermore there is no finishing required for corrosion resistance, the part weighs less, takes less time to make, and is again using cheaper materials. The poly framed pistols on the market have shown themselves to be just as durable as their steel framed counterparts(and I think some would argue more durable than some aluminum framed guns....). So what do YOU get as consumer? You get a higher quality product. Fewer corners are cut and more can be invested into quality control when the cost to make the part and assembly is reduced. But lets also be reasonable about this- the material used in the frame of the gun is no more an indicator of quality manufacturing than the color of the grips. The proof is in the pudding- we have 25+ years of hard data on quality polymer pistols being abused and setting a new standard in reliability and durability. And the polymers we have today are superior to what we had 25 years ago... As for your perception there is nothing I can do about that. If you associate plastic with cheap McDonald's toys then that is your loss. You should understand that generalizing "plastics" is like generalizing "metals." You wouldn't make a gun out of the same Chinese pot-metal castings that some cheap toys are made out of just like you wouldn't use the same cheap polystyrene that many toys use. This post nails it OP. |
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What exactly do you want us to say? Of course steel and aluminum have higher tensile strengths... but it doesn't matter. As an engineer you pick the material that is suited to the application. For low stress components you don't need, or want, hardened steel(or even worse cheap cast steel...) The reason why we use plastics is because they are cheap and easily processed. We can create extremely complex geometries to very tight tolerances in a relatively cheap process. Furthermore there is no finishing required for corrosion resistance, the part weighs less, takes less time to make, and is again using cheaper materials. The poly framed pistols on the market have shown themselves to be just as durable as their steel framed counterparts(and I think some would argue more durable than some aluminum framed guns....). So what do YOU get as consumer? You get a higher quality product. Fewer corners are cut and more can be invested into quality control when the cost to make the part and assembly is reduced. But lets also be reasonable about this- the material used in the frame of the gun is no more an indicator of quality manufacturing than the color of the grips. The proof is in the pudding- we have 25+ years of hard data on quality polymer pistols being abused and setting a new standard in reliability and durability. And the polymers we have today are superior to what we had 25 years ago... As for your perception there is nothing I can do about that. If you associate plastic with cheap McDonald's toys then that is your loss. You should understand that generalizing "plastics" is like generalizing "metals." You wouldn't make a gun out of the same Chinese pot-metal castings that some cheap toys are made out of just like you wouldn't use the same cheap polystyrene that many toys use. This post nails it OP. I read your reply. Glad you see the light so to speak regarding combat tupperware  |
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, i get disgusted when I pick them up since they make me think of cheap, china-made things.. Here's your issue right here and there is no talking your way into plastic. Your going to have to shoot your way into plastic and that disgusted feeling in your gut, well you'll need to get past that first. maybe, if someone had solid data that plastic was superior from an engineering standpoint(not wieght or cost) Id jump on it, but Im pretty sure companies are putting out inferior materials because they can. my brother paid $100 more for a glock than I did for my cz and its plastic, less parts, and a simpler design. The only thing better is the melonite coating. If needing emperical data, well here you go. http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/gingerglock1299-1.jpg Plastic outsells metal every year, been around for decades and I'm sure someone can produce a picture of a 25 plus year old Glock. 
Have never seen that picture before. *That's* funny. |
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My plastic guns aren't by any means, my "favorite" guns, or my most expensive guns, and perhaps not even my "best" guns by some criteria; but they are the ones I count on every day and the ones I want in my hand if things turn to shit. They are great tools for what they need to do. +1 While my M&P9c wouldn't be my first choice if things got real (in pistols that would be either a 1911 or BHP) it is certainly a good choice and one I would be comfortable with. Cheap and good as opposed to 'fine' or 'crafted' and good. Also, I think I understand what the OP said about a 'soul'. Guns seem to have some anthropomorphic (now there's a word) qualities about them in the same way many machines do. It is not the machine itself, but I suppose how we relate to it that imparts these attributes. Like Louis Armstrong said about Jazz: “Man, if you have to ask what it is, you’ll never know.” |
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The following is an opinon and worth exactly what you paid for it
I see your point. I feel you are missing all the info. plastic guns are great. the biggest problem with with the plastic guns is that they are synonyms for GLOCK. In some ways Glocks are the worst of the "quality" handguns out there. There is a reason Glock is the only company to give a way free guns and money to all at the GLOCK shoots if they didn't few civiilians would keep them. My introduction to plastic was a Glock 27 back in 98. This gun was good enough but I WANT BETTER THAN THAT So I went with a different brand and found a pistol that is as good as a Beretta or BHP and half the weight. Do not be turned off to plastic pistols when you are really turned off to Glocks. Notice the OP had no mention of wanting wood furniture on his AR. Quoted:
What exactly do you want us to say? Of course steel and aluminum have higher tensile strengths... but it doesn't matter. As an engineer you pick the material that is suited to the application. For low stress components you don't need, or want, hardened steel(or even worse cheap cast steel...) The reason why we use plastics is because they are cheap and easily processed. We can create extremely complex geometries to very tight tolerances in a relatively cheap process. Furthermore there is no finishing required for corrosion resistance, the part weighs less, takes less time to make, and is again using cheaper materials. The poly framed pistols on the market have shown themselves to be just as durable as their steel framed counterparts(and I think some would argue more durable than some aluminum framed guns....). So what do YOU get as consumer? You get a higher quality product. Fewer corners are cut and more can be invested into quality control when the cost to make the part and assembly is reduced. But lets also be reasonable about this- the material used in the frame of the gun is no more an indicator of quality manufacturing than the color of the grips. The proof is in the pudding- we have 25+ years of hard data on quality polymer pistols being abused and setting a new standard in reliability and durability. And the polymers we have today are superior to what we had 25 years ago... As for your perception there is nothing I can do about that. If you associate plastic with cheap McDonald's toys then that is your loss. You should understand that generalizing "plastics" is like generalizing "metals." You wouldn't make a gun out of the same Chinese pot-metal castings that some cheap toys are made out of just like you wouldn't use the same cheap polystyrene that many toys use. I agree with this too. |
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Have never seen that picture before. *That's* funny. If I'm not mistaken, that's the owner's dog from the old Scott, MacDougal & Assoc. shop. They specialized in Colt .380's but did some work for me once on a S&W 25 I had. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me. |
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5,000 years from now archaeologists will be digging up Glock frames and putting them in museums. in 5000 years you could dig up a Glock frame and it would still be in shootable condition. I never used to like plastic on guns, but then I realized how indestructable and low maintance plastic parts are. Now if I can get a gun with a synthetic stock of plastic frame I do. I still have some wood/metal guns, but they aren't my high use guns. |
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5,000 years from now archaeologists will be digging up Glock frames and putting them in museums. in 5000 years you could dig up a Glock frame and it would still be in shootable condition. I never used to like plastic on guns, but then I realized how indestructable and low maintance plastic parts are. Now if I can get a gun with a synthetic stock of plastic frame I do. I still have some wood/metal guns, but they aren't my high use guns. I don't believe this for a second. But none of us will be around to see it. 
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise! I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Price is not a factor, metal and plastic framed guns are comparable in price. Weight is not an issue as A few oz is not enough for me to worry about. Right now, I refuse to buy a polymer pistol. Tell me what I am missing out on, not individual gun-wise, but with plastic in general. I prefer all steel aesthetically. Owned (past tense) many of these. However, I prefer Glocks functionally. Own (current tense) a few of these. Weight is an issue in a CCW. Not in a HD or range gun. The Glock 17 is a hard shooter to beat in terms of comfort. It's my preferred 9mm. I shoot much better with my 1911. And, I shoot better withh my G30 as well. For carry, most often Glock for ease of maintenance, no manual safety, capacity and weight. That said, I just plain like my 1911 for .45acp. I've kept just one. |
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Has no soul?
The OP needs to stop regurgitating the printed word of Mr. John Taffin. Next we can hear something about how "pistols are supposed to be comforting, not comfortable"..... On a side note, I enjoy the writing of both Mr. Taffin and Mr. Smith. The constant repeating of their quirky sayings by others however..... |
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The following is an opinon and worth exactly what you paid for it I see your point. I feel you are missing all the info. plastic guns are great. the biggest problem with with the plastic guns is that they are synonyms for GLOCK. In some ways Glocks are the worst of the "quality" handguns out there. There is a reason Glock is the only company to give a way free guns and money to all at the GLOCK shoots if they didn't few civiilians would keep them. My introduction to plastic was a Glock 27 back in 98. This gun was good enough but I WANT BETTER THAN THAT So I went with a different brand and found a pistol that is as good as a Beretta or BHP and half the weight. Do not be turned off to plastic pistols when you are really turned off to Glocks. Notice the OP had no mention of wanting wood furniture on his AR. . Wow...you weren't kidding. That post was seriously worth $0. |
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Ok, I hate plastic. Its cheap, flimsy, has no soul, and balances like shit. It sucks. Convince me otherwise! I have read that polymer is more durable than steel/aluminum. Is it? Price is not a factor, metal and plastic framed guns are comparable in price. Weight is not an issue as A few oz is not enough for me to worry about. Right now, I refuse to buy a polymer pistol. Tell me what I am missing out on, not individual gun-wise, but with plastic in general. Soul, what a silly concept. If that same piece of steel was a mower blade, would it still have soul? How about that aluminum. If it was a case of Sam's choice soda, would you feel the same soul? The reality is that a firearm is a tool, the soul you apply to it is all in your head. Find the best tool, that does the best job, for the price your willing to pay. I shoot my G21 better than any other handgun, so I use it all the time.The frame material means nothing, how it works is everything. This goes right to the heart of the discussion. I've never cared for the "feel" of a Glock but I can't run it down for that because they just plain "work"! I love the "feel" of a BHP, until I press the trigger and it inevitably bites the web of my hand. As pointed out earlier, your aversion to plastic is emotional not emperical but hey, it's your money, spend it how you wish. |
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In some ways Glocks are the worst of the "quality" handguns out there. There is a reason Glock is the only company to give a way free guns and money to all at the GLOCK shoots if they didn't few civiilians would keep them. There are probably more Glocks in civilain hands then H&Ks, XDs, etc. |
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In some ways Glocks are the worst of the "quality" handguns out there. There is a reason Glock is the only company to give a way free guns and money to all at the GLOCK shoots if they didn't few civiilians would keep them. ^ Probably the funniest thing I've read on here in awhile. |
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How many broken 1911 slide pics are out there? A dozen or so. Also plenty of cracked frames and other failed parts. Metal isn't indestructible. http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5058/img1556m.jpg yes, but thats 100 yards of production. now go find all the glock, XD, Sig ect ect plastic pistols that have either KB'd or had cracked frames that have been out just a fraction of that time. |