[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Micro CCW? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/3/2007 11:46:23 PM EDT
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A buddy of mine is considering "pocket carry" and asked about options. This is not my area. Those of you that carry in the size range of Kel-tec/AMT can you offer advice on gun & holster duos? Most reliable guns in this size range? |
Walther PPK... *DO NOT* go revolver... Poor trigger, crap sights, slow reloading... There's just no reason AT ALL to still use one... |
| Kahr PM9 with me always. With Winchester RA9T 147 gr standard pressure ammo it meets the FBI requirements for bare gel, 4 layer denim, and barrier penetration. It has real sights, and not all little guns do. This also allows night sight installation. I have no problem qualifying with it every year on a course that I have to really bear down on to pass with a snub .38 and KT P3AT (other pocket guns I have used in the past). Get a good pocket holster (I use Andrews Custom Leather) and you are GTG. |
Another vote for the PM9. It's my pocket/ankle BUG. |
1) Physical imparement that prevents one from loading a semi that didn't lock back when empty. 2)My wife cannot reliably load a semi pistol. She has no problem with a revolver. 3)Failure to fire drill in a DA revolver? Pull the trigger again. That said I train a bit and carry a semi. But would not feel under gunned with any of my revolvers. |
Gunfights occur ar 7 feet range Find the front sight post, place it center mass and end the fightslow reloading...Speed loader?? 3 shots is the average total for a gunfight| no reason to carry a revolver?? LOLOLOL that was the dumbest thing I read all day thanks for the laugh.....listen if your looking for a good bug gun a revolver is the best way to go, utterly reliable, pretty much goes bang everytime(wont have to worry about lint and shit jamming up your gun if just thrown in pocket), the round can be found ANYWHERE(good choices for self defense rounds) I carry the S&W 340PD 38/357 and carry 135 speer +P 38 spec and the thing weighs 12oz .....you can NEVER go wrong with a good snubbie....anyone who says differently has no clue |
It's no less ignorant of you to automatically think a revolver is "the best way to go." Due to the popularity of CCDW, small autos have come a LONG way in the last 10-15 years. 20 years ago a J-frame was pretty much the only choice if you wanted a compact, reliable weapon in a service cartridge.Now we have subcompact versions of service weapons like the GLOCK and XD subcompacts and pocket pistols like the Kahrs and Rohrbaugh. At one time I carried a 642 as my full time BUG. That was before I laid my hands on a Kahr PM9. The Kahr is shorter in heighth and length while still having a longer barrel. Not having a cylinder, it's much thinner than the J-frame making concealment a breeze. My PM9 and 642 both weighed exactly the same. The little Kahr has a better trigger and much better sights than the 642 and I shoot it far better than I ever could the revolver. It fires an even more commonly available round that is both cheaper to shoot and much more powerful tha any .38spl. As far as capacity, the Kahr tops the Smith again. Two more rounds with the flush 6 round mag along with the ability to use the factory 7 and eight round mags. Do we even need to discuss ease or speed of reloads? Ever try to load a J-frame under stress? The best thing about the Kahr is the lack of recoil. Try as I might, I never could enjoy shooting the 642. Even with light target loads the damn thing was unpleasant and even painful to shoot. In review, the auto is smaller, more powerful, easier to shoot well and reload quickly, and doesn't make your hand feel as if its been smacked with a hammer after a day at the range. Now why is a revolver "the best way to go" again? |
There is no one gun for every circumstanace. I own and carry a CW9 Kahr and a fullsize MilSpec Springer 1911. As we speak there is a S&W airweight by my side. Autos are good IF you train a lot, NEVER EVER limpwrist it, and have the strength to rack the slde. If you are a gun n00b and don't want to train a lot or lack the strength to rack the slide then a revolver is a much better choice. |
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Each person who carries has their own motivation and requirements so let's try to keep this on track. I am just looking to give this guy the spectrum of reliable options so whatever he picks will be a decent choice. Most nods for the Kahr and the J-frame If those two were not an option what would be the next choice for pocket carry? Anything more on the NAA line? |
| The Kel Tec p32 or P3AT are excellent little pocket guns. Tiny. feather light, still more rounds than a .38, and dirt cheap. The .32 has been used by police in Europe for a long time. If you are up against skinny little Eurotrash heroin addicts you are fine. You better be Annie-Freakin-Oakley if you want to use one to stop a USA corn fed linebacker with a head full of cocaine and a pint of Hennessey under his belt who wants something you have. |
IMHO if you get smaller than the .380 or .38 Special you are in the area where if you shoot someone you better hope they don't find out. If they do they are going to be PISSED. Kahr CW9 is smaller than a lot of .380's and is a fullhouse 9mm. Airweight with +p's while brutal in the recoil department is a great revlover. Charter Arms, I think, makes a 5 shot 32 H&R Magnum snubbie that MIGHT make the grade. Those NAA micro revolvers are not very effective. I shot a .22 LR derringer at a steel bucket and the bullet bounced back and hit me. I doubt that the NAA revolver is any better.  Charter claims that .32 H&R Magnum is as effective as .38 special standard load. |
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My $0.02: Any of the Kahr Arms guns - they are excellent, can't go wrong here Glock 26 or 27 - can't go wrong here either Kel-Tec P3AT - to really be easy to conceal (although I have experienced them to be less reliable than the two makers I previously listed). Walther PPK - old but still good And yes, any sunbnose wheelgun will still suit the task just fine. They just don't conceal as well as the first three. But for those who cannot proficiently operate a small auto (often, the slide springs are too stout for some women to use), they are still legitimate pocket guns and dead nuts reliable. |
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This chart should give you some idea of how the various mouse guns compare size wise to each other. Personally, the P3AT is what I keep in my pocket. ETA If I was going to stick something the size of a J-frame in my pocket, I'd go with a Kel-Tec P11 or P40 (if you can find one). |
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kel-tec pf9 www.kel-tec.com/pf9.html I just looked at one at the local store. Surprisingly good trigger and general quality for $270 asking price. If i didn't have any other pocket guns, I would try one. It is about 1/8 inch thinner than the equivalent Kahr. (which is also a very good option, at about $200 more) The S&W aluminum/titanium revolvers are great if you feel that 5 rounds will suffice. Their light weight makes for easy, convenient carry. |
That is a very cool little chart, thanks for sharing it. Mouseguns.com looks like a good resource as well. |
You're not going to get in a "firefight" with a PPK either there. Rambo. A revolver will go bang evrytime, if the bullet doesn't go bang you simply pull the trigger again, in the case of a pocket pistol if you have an awkward grip on it(like middle finger in trigger guard instead of index, you pull it out upside down(yes this happens) or you can't get it out of your pocket quick enough) it will still fire. In those positions with an automatic there is a good chance something will go wrong with an auto's slide, ejection, and/or feeding. |
My recommendation in the category is the Seecamp. It comes in both .32 ACP and .380. As the owner of one, I can tell you that it is a beautifully made little gun. Extremely high quality. I do not think you will find a pocket gun in this size class with better build quality. Beautifully made and it goes bang every time. 
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I checked one out at the store the other day and am thinking about getting one. They were asking $249 new. |
you made the comment, not me.......NO REASON AT ALL to carry one....as stated above PLEASEEEEEEE! nothing wrong with the sights on a Jframe, again as stated above most occurances happen at 7yrds or less...at that distance I am sorry sights are not really needed, .....5 rounds is more than adequate for the Jframe...you have 2 extra big deal....I am hoping to use only one(actually none, god for bid I ever have to use mine that drawing it will be enough to end the situation).....loading under pressure? have you not heard of speed loaders and speed strips?? dont forget dont have to worry about limp wristing a revolver and jams because of lint...they are extremely reliable and um less prone to Jam like your PM9....I am not knocking kahr I like there stuff alot, I even owned a PM9.....but for me there is nothing like a Jfram with +ps in your pocket, and your right its personal preference and all about TRAINING........but I jumped on you for the comment you made there is no reason AT ALL to use one.....come on man lol 
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I like both too. I agree with the previous poster regarding which one is more fun to shoot though.  
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After looking at their page, it looks like a good pistol. I wouldn't use one for carry (personal choice), but I do have a soft spot for small caliber pistols... One may be in my future. There are some pics that show the .25, .32 and .380 being the same size. www.seecamp.com/photos.htm |
More "powerful"? Depends on the ammo, would it not? Certainly a 9mm will be a notch above .38spl, generally speaking, but it will also give more felt recoil in the pocket pistols as well. The .380acp is no where near the power of the .38sp, never mind in a +P loading, so I'm not sure where you're speaking from here. As for one's hand hurting from a range session, all one has to do is shoot .38spl WC loads in a J-Frame. Recoil is like a .22, virtually. I'd like to see someone try soft loads in a semi & try to make one work. As for revolvers & semis, generally speaking: try working a semi with one hand. Clearing a jam, for example. Can't be done. However, with a revolver, all one has to do is pull the trigger & a FRESH rd comes right up to meet Mr. Firing Pin.  As someone once said, if one needs more than 5 rds, then they shoulda brought a real gun along to start with. I tend to agree. Now, this is NOT to say a revolver is better than a semi for CCL, but for tiny gun purposes, I vote for the revolver easily & never look back. My .o2 |
| +1 for Seecamp. I carry my Glock 19 IWB in a FIST #1K Kydex holster, or my S&W J-Frame in the N-Force Ankle Holster... and my Seecamp LWS32 in a FIST #K5 pocket holster. I might choose the J-Frame or the Glock based on what I'm wearing and what I am doing... but I always have the Seecamp in my pocket. That's the value of a small CCW... it's always there. YMMV. Stay safe. |
| Whoever says a revolver is obsolete is a legitimate dumbass. There are numerous ways to make an auto not work; any technique used by the adversary or just simply in hand to hand, that obstructs the slide will induce a malfunction. This will not happen with a hammerless revolver. There will always be legitimate reasons to carry a hammerless snub. A simple manual of arms and dead reliability in the most awkward positions make the hammerless snub a great choice. |
You are apparently unaware that a revolver is easily disabled by simply grabbing the cylinder. If someone grabs the slide of your auto, at least you still get one shot. |
It's easier to find 9mm Para than it is to find 38SPC... Further, even if you don't use your sights, the trigger on a DA revolver is terrible compared to a DA/SA or SAO semi (Well, except Glocks)... Plus you get more barrel with the semi... I'd take a PPK or any modern compact-9mm not made in Austria over any revolver, any day... |
If you grab the slide of an auto, the guy on the grip-end can still shoot you... This will generally result in your letting go of the slide long enough for the shooter to disengage & clear the weapon. With a revolver, if the cylinder doesn't rotate the gun doesn't fire... And most small autos, with fixed barrels, will handle contact-shots just fine... I'll take the better trigger, better sights, faster reload and such any day... |
If someone has their hand on the slide then they can slide it backwards making the gun useless until they let it fall back forward. It they're bearing down on you a big BG might actually be able to prevent that long enough to really hurt you. It is much less likley a guy can keep a cylinder on a revolver from turning whilst you are squeezing the shit out of the trigger with your closed fist. |
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Great chart! I have a NAA Guardian .380 I pick it over the Kel-Tec .380 yes a little wider and bunch heaver but in the micro handgun world it still is very small and light (the Kel-Tec is just amazingly light) I carry my Glock 27 and will carry the NAA .380 on day were I really "don't" need a firearm, or concealing my G27 will be difficult, haven't found a decent holster yet. |
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Well, I see a lot of experts here chiming in on revo vs auto...whatever. A cop I know used to swear by small Autos for backup until he was on the ground with a 300 pound guy on top of him while serving a warrant, pulling the trigger on his AMT backup jammed into the perp's belly and wondering why it wouldn't fire...[the slide was pushed back]. Does that mean autos suck? Not a bit. I own a P3at, a 642 and a G26. I like 'em all but carry the 642 99% of the time. Some say it's harder to conceal, personally I find it the easiest due to the fact that it's size is easier for me to handle...the P3at is just small emough to make drawing a little clumsy for me, while the 642 is just right...YMMV. Have handled Kahr pistols and I like them, but they are pricey. |
I am not unaware, but using retention shooting techniques makes it much more difficult to grab the cylinder than the slide of an auto. But more specifically I am talking about wrestling with the weapon. If the shooter is brought down and the rear of the auto is pressed against the shooter's body and a shot is fired then a malfunction is likely to occur. Also the slide can get snagged in clothing (or long hair) when shooting from extreme retention style techniques if not properly excuted (like in a hand to hand situation). Also, only blowback operated pistols (fixed barrels) will work if pressed into a body. For those that do not know what I am talking about, take your UNLOADED recoil (Browning) operated pistol, cock it, then push the barrel into your opposite palm. The gun will go out of battery and not fire. The snubs role is extreme CQC. There is place for everything. When I spend alot of time in my car, the snub come with me. I would rather have 5 shots of 38+p that work in 99% of all envisioned scenarios than 7 shots of 9 that MAY not work in 5% of scenarios. It is a Murphy's Law type of thing... |
Exactly. |
I couldn't agree more. A .38/.357 snubby is an outstanding pocket gun. The gun below is so light that you don't even notice it, either in a front or back pocket. It's got either .38 or .357 (which I use) as a caliber option. Most go with +P .38's as a compromise. A very effective compromise. It's got 5 rounds and frankly, there is no reason to think one would or should need more. As for sights? Please. Next question? Easily the most reliable handgun platform ever made...which is likely the #1 reason why these guns get the job done so well....and make an excellent choice. Very, VERY light weight. As reliable as ANY gun made. Stopping power to end the attack of ANY person you may encounter. Highly concealable. And there's no reason to ever carry a revolver asa pocket gun? Mmmmm k.  
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I have really been looking forward to the Kel-Tec PF9, but since it was supposed to come out last summer and I still can't find anyone with it in stock, I bit on this little beauty on the EE. I am not disappointed. Fits my hand rather well. The only problem I had was that the narrow grip makes a narrow curve at the top of the hand, so the last knuckle of my thumb, where the thumb connects to the hand, is a little sore from it digging in. That is my only complaint. I shot 100 rounds of white box to break her in and get the feel. I shot 2 handed, single right hand and single left hand. I tried to limp wrist. A friend fired some rounds too. No jams, no problems at all. Accuracy was very good. I carried it all day inside the waistband and I it is very easy to carry, light slim and compact. Here it is the KAHR CW-9 pictured with my Glock 19 for size compare.   The biggest difference is how thin it is. The slide is .90" thick. It is a single stack 9mm. 
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I'm thinking, when I get off my duff and get my CHL... I'll be looking to get a PPK/S. I had one, and loved it... wish I didn't trade it. It was STUPID accurate. Although I might pony up a little more and go with the PM9. I think it would be smarter for a couple reasons... More powerful... and I can use the same ammunition in my full size pistol (CZ75) and my CX4 Storm. Plus 9mm is probably cheaper than .380 since it's so common. Otherwise, I saw a couple nice micro 1911 models by Kimber and SA... might look into one of those. |
Well here you go! Bryco-Jennings 9mm! Made right here in the U.S.A.! Clearly better quality than those Austrian pieces of shit! 
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And I'd take getting shot by a .380 or 9mm over being shot with a .357 any day. The tool is only as good as the person using it. |
Someone gets butthurt rather easily Glocks are solid guns, I would never own one, thats my choice though. |
