Posted: 1/17/2004 1:40:17 AM EDT
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My wife wants a mouse gun...concealed carry. Now before you all get started...she had already nixed even the small .380 PPKs and the new hideous Kel-Tec .380. She wants something REALLY small. So far, she liked the Baretta Tomcat in .22LR and a S&W model 61 also in .22LR. I'm OK with 7 rounds of .22LR being able to swim around a bad guys insides enough to make him go away...but I have very little experience with these small weapons. (Nothing under .40 cal for me...) I've heard about problems with durability in the Beretta..dispose after 1500 rounds etc... Any thoughts? Thanks, Bill |
I don't mean to upset anyone, but this is serious business- ask your wife this-you and your wife are walking out of the grocery store late one evening to stock up before a big snow storm that's coming (or whatever). The parking lot is empty because of the hour and cold weather. She sees this guy behind you a second before he swings at you with a bat. www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/baton_rouge/5.html?sect=2 ou hear him and instinctively spin and raise your arm and he breaks your right arm with the bat, knocking you to the ground. You're on the ground trying to draw and fire with your other arm and he has the bat raised for a second swing-she now has her hand on the butt of her carry gun. She has a chance to maybe fire once before you get it in the melon. If that round doesn't go through his heavy winter jacket and into his chest cavity and make a big enough wound to stop him RIGHT THERE! that's it for you and probably her also. Sure she might get a couple of those .22s in him-and as a coroner friend of mine says-those will kill him EVENTUALLY. But will she trust it to save you? And her? And any other family members or loved ones with you? |
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Buy her a Glock 19 and the Advantage Arms .22 LR converion. While she's plinking with the .22 unit she is still getting valuable practice with the gun she will carry. Glock 19 with Ranger SXT's is a formidable weapon and she'll love shooting the .22 unit. I even load up Aguilla Colibri rounds and shoot in the garage. The Colibri rounds have no powder, just primer powered. They won't cycle the action but are fun to use to practice your draw and first round hits. |
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The baby Beretta 21 is a good as you can get mouse gun. The Beretta in 32 auto is not much bigger try and talk her into that. It she wants something else there is American Derringer , but I think they are a accident waiting to happen. www.amderringer.com/first.html |
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First step, lose the term "mouse gun". No other firearm term is as meaningless, or sounds as weak as that. Second, get her something, as Aimless stated, that will do more work than the simple .22 caliber. Big people, high on drugs or adreneline will not be effected much by a .22 round. True, I would not want to get shot once with one, but still, plan for the worst. Personally, and this doesn't amount to .02 cents, I always recommend to women to get a .357 revolver. Why? Not much mechanics to get used to, (no safeties, slide locks, mag releases) and all they have to do is pull the trigger, pull the trigger, pull the trigger. Can shoot .38 spls and carry .357's for "punch". Hope I didn't offend you with the first statement. Take care, good luck in your quest. cc |
Sounds to me like her reason for carrying is flawed. You need to help her rethink that. See Aimless's post  Edited to add: once she has her head on straight have her take a look at a Kahr PM9, it's almost as small as a mouse gun but in a serious caliber. www.kahr.com/front.html  Caliber 9mm Capacity 6 + 1, 7 + 1 (magazine with grip extension) Operation Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect Barrel 3.0", polygonal rifling; 1-10 right-hand twist Length O/A 5.3" Height 4.0" Slide Width .90" Weight Pistol 14 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces Grip Textured polymer Sights Drift-adjustable, white bar-dot combat sights (tritium night sights optional) Finish Matte stainless steel slide Magazines 1 each: 6-round flush baseplate & 7-round grip extension Warranty Limited Lifetime |
| Guys, guys, lets face it not all people are going to want to carry a firearm that will lay out a 250 pound mental that is on a adrenaline high or whacked out on PCP. Fact of life is the better the gun and caliber are for ---- stopping an incident, -------- the bigger and heavier they are. A woman may want a small , "leave me the fuck alone package" --- and I see nothing wrong in that. |
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Glock 19 Or .38special or I guess you could try something in .22magnum loaded with good hollowpoints. That I would consider to be the minimum. That could be had in a 10shot snub bosed revolver. These are the smallest guns that can be counted on to rapidly incapacitate without a CNS shot (brain stem) the kiling shot for .22lrs. Get her something that will kill. It isn't good to have her walking around less than serious with the knowledge that the gun she is using isn't deadly, she is more likely to shoot at someone who is not a deadly threat. wounded criminals even those with justifiable woundings, will come back on you with HUGE legal battles for disability payments.- you are better off with the really dangerous criminals DEAD. they don't require the same pain and suffering payments. Besides you can't save your life if the gun you are using will still allow you to be killed before the assailent dies. |
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Make sure she really wants a grip that short. My wife is very competitive and when she shoots she wants to be accurate, the little guns upset her because she does not shoot as well as she thinks she should with them. She has a G19 now, may switch to Sig 239 You wife should carry something, and don't get so pissy with her over what that she ends up with nothing. Just explain to her that it will only be flash pc and may not solve a lot of problems. If she misses 5 times with a .357 then she is in the shit too! |
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Ok...First of all, let me give you more info. I grew up with guns/rifles/bows. I did 20 years in the Navy...I've worked with the biggest of bangs...Tomahawk missiles, 16 inch guns, 20 mm CIWS and a host of small arms. I know about ballistics and "special" weapons we can't discuss without me getting a vacation to Kansas. I load my own ammo and have a buddy who works in the state ballistics lab. We shoot at vests, do water tank projectile expansion tests, ballistic gel, experimental ammo etc. I know what calibers do what and to whom. I am now a LEO and have a small arsenal of very tasty firearms. My wife has revolvers and semi-autos a plenty to choose from. Off duty, I carry a Kimber .45 or Glock 27 depending on my attire. I have a Sig .40 as my duty side arm, a snubby S&W .357 ankle rig, Bennelli semi auto entry shotgun between the seats and my CAR M-4 in the trunk. You are preachin' to the choir when you tell me the .22 has serious limitations. I know this. We also have 14 month old daughter. My wife was advised by me to carry the SP 101 .357 I have given her as her nightstand gun (loaded with .38 +p). She shoots very well and has good gun safety skills. She pointed out that she is often carrying our daughter in one arm, and would be shooting with the other. She is not confident in shooting a snubby .38 one handed while scooping up a toddler with the other. She is a girly woman...tall, slender and has small hands. She has shot my Glock 27, all my snubby .38s and .357s, and a few small 9mm and .40 cals. She does not wear clothing that will hide a holster...she barely carries a purse larger than her wallet. So she wants a pocket gun. I have explained to her the stopping power of the various rounds. I don't trust my life to anything smaller than .40 cal and have explained why I feel this way. She has also heard my comments on how more gang bangers in East LA are killed by .22 rounds than any other caliber. I know that 7 rounds of .22 LR will not stop everything wishing to do her harm. I do think she would A)Scare the Be-Jesus outta the attacker B)Wound/distract him enough to get her long legs moving to safety C)Probably empty all 7 rounds into center mass of bad guy making him quite dead. We spoke about the range of the Beretta .22 and both her and I agree she would most likely ALWAYS be within that range when faced with a deadly force decision. My opinion is that she will not carry a gun she has to change her lifestyle for. Not yet at least. She carries nothing now, but is concerned about it and wants to protect our child. I'd rather have her carry the Beretta .22 than nothing. Perhaps as she gets comfy carrying the smaller weapon, she'll move up to the PPK or new Micro Kahr 9mm which were my picks for her. So my original question was...have any of you any experience with the Bobcat and are the longevity issues based in fact or are they rumour? No more chest thumping BS from all you ".50 cal or nothin" macho goofs...At least I got her to move up from pepper spray or at least add some punch to it if she continues to carry it! Thanks for your thoughts. Bill |
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Oh yeah...thanks Cyanide for your thoughtful post. And I should add... This weapon is for the times she is not with me and away from home. If an attacker comes at her in our house, he gets to see her with the .357 and two large dogs. When she is with me, shooting bad guys comes under my job title. She has the basic training about attacks and where they happen (her getting into her car, walking across parking lots, exiting stores, ATMs etc) We already live in a virtually "crime free" Seattle suburb, and she does not go out alone at night often. She has been living with me being "hyper vigilant" about where we sit in public (back to the wall, me facing the entry), how she walks to my left and NEVER grabs my gun hand when startled etc. We have code words for her hauling ass to call for help or staying behind me while I fight/shoot, and her telling the 911 operator what I look like, that I'm an armed LEO etc so the cops don't shoot me when coming to our aid blah blah blah... She has a very safe, well protected life, so this is just more insurance. |
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I'll sound off. I too asked for a mouse gun, specificly the kel-tec p32 in 32acp in a past post. I to want opinions on small mouse guns. I also curently own a Baretta bobcat. It is the older model not being made any more in .22 short. It has a longer barrel then the one being offered now and has no external safety. The weapon fires really nice. It is a little snappy for such a weak cartridge and is noticeably louder then a 22LR. I can hit soda cans with it at 50 yards. Any thing after that is luck. It was my dad's, but in the 20 years or so I have had it I shot about 1,000 rounds through it. Who knows how much my dad and his friends put through it. The only wear is a little rust on the slide. Its a bit heavy but I am sure the new model with the shorter barrel is much lighter. Other mouse guns that come to mind are the NAA mini revolvers, 5 shots of 22LR in a key chain package. Hell there are pen guns out there like the offerings from stinger pen pistols that don't require AOW. In short if Hawaii had CCW then I would carry a glock 36. We don't so I carry a spyderco 3 inch blade. My wife has problems with me being armed, even though she was car jacked with a sawed off in Kali. I was just laid off again so I may move to a free state. If I do I hope my wife will have a changed attitude about self defense. Your a lucky man. |
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what I think is THE best pocket gun: the Seecamp .32. The build quality and reliability are outstanding. .32 Winchester silvertips will definitely make an impression on an assailant, and the damn things are incredibly tiny. They are a little hard to find as the factory is low output. This is a great gun for deep cover, or for times when only a very small gun will do. It is very easy to shoot. Highly recommended. I have one and think very highly of it.
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I'm going to completely avoid getting into the whole caliber thing. You asked about small pistols, I'll answer in the context of my limited experience. I carry a KelTec P32 (not the "hideous P3AT") whenever I can't get away with my Kahr MK9. If her objection to the KTs are caliber/model specific, I'd highly recommend this little .32 auto. Inexpensive, hyper-compact/thin (smaller than the Berettas, I believe), better than a .22 but very controllable for its size and I can keep "minute-of-paper-plate" shooting one-haded at the kind of distances you described. Seeing as how I'd classify my skills as "Joe Average", I think she'd do just as well. I've had mine for a few years now (ser. # 33xxx), am well over the 1K round mark (all FMJ), have done no "fluff-&-buff" and have had no mechanical problems. YMMV. If she objects to KTs on principle... well, I'm out of first-hand experience, then , unless she wants to reconsider J-frames and Kahr 9mms. I once had a Taurus PT-22 (utter p.o.s.) but basing Beretta judgements on that is like comparing oranges to tangerines - they look alike at a distance but they're hardly the same thing.Hope this helps. |
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I am sorry I don't have more experience in this area. I do think you summed up your wife's situation quite well, and that applies to about 95% of women and CCW. Their clothes and lifestyle just don't play well with CCW. Maybe a ported 38 spl, like a little Tarus. If she got more range time maybe she could get that one handed confidence up. Kudos to you and her for recognizing that she would be shooting strong hand only. I swear most of these guys forget that when they pick cannons for their wives. As far as the .22 goes. I like the aguilla 60 grain load (sniper subsonic). I wonder what mouse gun could shoot that ? That would be a good little hole out of a .22 I also thought that some of these .17 HMRs coming out could be really cool. That load is going to penetrate clothes quite well and should frag a ton on the first bone it hits. Conversely they may fly through everything. Good luck, let us know what works. |