Posted: 12/10/2009 7:32:48 PM EDT
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I need to buy a new handgun. What (if any) experience do you guys have with this Clicky
I looked at one today,I didn't get a chance to fire it but it feels good in my "comedy large" hands  and I love the feel of the trigger.
I've shot, and like the Glock 22 and still might go with that. Whatever I get it will be .40 cal. Thanks in advance. |
| I have it in a 9 and love it. I deffinately like how it has interchangeable backstraps because with the larger one, my dinner plates wrap around it nicely allowing me to have the perfect amount of finger (for me) on the trigger. Never had any problems with it either. only down side is that magazines are expensive |
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Beretta's track record with rotary barrel handguns is abysmal. Other gun companies haven't done much better with it. I would skip it. Why, because they didn't market the Cougar well? The PX4 is a good weapon. I picked up my .45 instead of a Glock 21, and I could not be happier. Very accurate. They have three calibers, with four action setups; safety with decocker, decocker only, DAO, or a partial cocked DAO (no second strike). |
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Why, because they didn't market the Cougar well? No, they marketed the Cougar fine...but police departments that adopted the weapons found that they had a bad habit of suffering severe part breakages (like breaking barrel lugs) at inappropriately low round counts. That is not a new phenomenon with rotary-barreled handguns. That's why you see so few of them on the market. |
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No, they marketed the Cougar fine...but police departments that adopted the weapons found that they had a bad habit of suffering severe part breakages (like breaking barrel lugs) at inappropriately low round counts. That is not a new phenomenon with rotary-barreled handguns. That's why you see so few of them on the market. Really, because when I looked at the PX4, I researched the Cougar (pretty much very similar, with a polymer frame). As long as you run lube, it is fine. Please, let me know what kind of low round count you are talking about, so I can go make sure I run that much through my PX4, if I haven’t already. Plus, if it is such a flawed pistol, why would Beretta (under Stoeger) bring it back into production? And especially, why go into a large scale (for Beretta) lineup with that being a big part of the design? I know a few departments that have gone with the PX4, and almost all love them. I know a half dozen that are waiting for the .40 SC model to come out, being they want to compliment their issued pistol. |
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Really, because when I looked at the PX4, I researched the Cougar (pretty much very similar, with a polymer frame). As long as you run lube, it is fine. If by "run fine" you mean it breaks, sure. I know of officers from departments that had trouble with the guns and I've even discussed the issue with Beretta employees. Plus, if it is such a flawed pistol, why would Beretta (under Stoeger) bring it back into production? ...perhaps because when you have machinery dedicated to producing X design there might be some financial incentive to continue producing it to recoup your investment in the platform even if it sucks so bad you took your name off of it? And especially, why go into a large scale (for Beretta) lineup with that being a big part of the design? Because somebody high up at Beretta decided that the new lineup would use a rotary barrel. Not the engineers...a management type. Again, that's from a Beretta employee. We're talking initial drawing board stages and somebody high in the foodchain of Beretta says "It will have a rotary barrel." When some folks within Beretta point to the Cougar's problems as a reason not to do that, the higher up says "It will have a rotary barrel." Why does this person have a fixation on a rotary barrel design? Beats the hell out of me...but it is HARDLY the first time that a gun company invests a bunch of money into a bad idea just because a bigshot at the company wants it. Glock did the GAP, certain people at H&K tried to 86 the 416 because it was making their pet G36 look bad, etc. Gun companies have some of the most screwed up corporate cultures you will ever see. I know a few departments that have gone with the PX4, The only ones I know of are a department in Maryland and some Canadian Mounties that are using the guns. |
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I know a few departments that have gone with the PX4, The only ones I know of are a department in Maryland and some Canadian Mounties that are using the guns. [/quote] Funny, I dont recall hearing about these failures when I read and article about Canada's Border Gaurds testing them. They seem to have been pretty happy with the results. I've been happy with the results I've had. Sounds to me like your simply bitter about the rotating barrel design. Can you point me in the right direction to some actual factual information regarding this? I'd certainly like to know the round count I should be worried about. Maybe I'll buy a new barrel to avoid such an issue! |
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funny, I dont recall hearing about these failures when I read and article about Canada's Border Gaurds testing them. They seem to have been pretty happy with the results. I've been happy with the results I've had. The Canadians didn't get them all that long ago so how they will fare as an issue gun is still up in the air. As for the article...did you read it in a gun magazine? If so, gun magazines are notoriously bad about pointing out actual problems encountered with firearms. That tends to drive away advertising dollars...and that's why every article on Taurus handguns is very positive despite the fact that Taurus makes a lot of really crappy guns. Sounds to me like your simply bitter about the rotating barrel design. 
I'm not "bitter" about anything. I'm simply stating the truth: That rotating barrel design pistols have exhibited serious problems over a very long history. Beretta's previous rotating barrel pistols sucked. Whether the PX4 will suck is still up in the air...but past history doesn't leave the dispassionate observer with a feeling of optimism. Multiple gun companies have tried rotary barrel designs with mediocre results....anyone remember this classic? 
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| One thing you can usually count on is having people who have not owned a product come out and bash them. I recently finished off my third case of practice ammo with my PX4 Storm (40 S&W) and this pistol has been 100% reliable (no FTF or breakages). To the OP, you may consider checking out www.berettaforum.net for more user reviews of these pistols (input from actual owners of these pistols may give you a better idea on how they have been working out). If you are truly interested in the PX4, you might try shooting one to get a feel for it before you buy. There are several great pistols available and you owe it to yourself to try out as many as possible before you spend your money. I am not a huge fan of Glock pistols chambered in 40 S&W, but I have never had any issues with any of the Glock 22 pistols I have owned. |
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I'm not "bitter" about anything. I'm simply stating the truth: That rotating barrel design pistols have exhibited serious problems over a very long history. Beretta's previous rotating barrel pistols sucked. Whether the PX4 will suck is still up in the air...but past history doesn't leave the dispassionate observer with a feeling of optimism. Then post up something other than your "opinion" on it... I can say I talked to the Beretta parts department about getting a replacement sight tool for my CX4, but am I talking to someone that has any importance in the question at hand? Maybe, but maybe not. Beretta is a large company, and has a lot of employees... not all are qualified gunsmiths, and some don't even have to be familiar with guns. It is the same in all companies, whether it is Colt, Glock, S&W, or H&K. Still, all I've heard is "X told me it is faulty." What is the "low round count" at which you described failures? Failures I've seen... one kaboom on BerettaForum. Design of the frame did a good job of it not seriously injuring the shooter (he stated it was likely a reload issue, which occurred in an IDPA match). I'll agree with you about gun magazines. I only look at them for specs or features of guns, not reliability. But, is it any different from saying the Cougar breaks, when many people pick up trade-ins and have a reliable pistol? Better question, have you owned one? How about shot one? The argument I quoted above is just completely lopsided... let’s say I talk about the Sigma, and due to that one design, all striker fired pistols are garbage. The M&P gets a double hit, for being a similar pistol and made by S&W. Glock is in that lump of pistols. Is that a fair statement? I don’t think so, especially with the good coming from the M&P (don’t really have to mention Glock, for obvious reasons). To be perfectly honest, I dislike striker fired pistols. That is due to an experience with a Glock in my last job. Do I bad mouth them? Nope, and I’m considering one as my next range gun. And it was tough enough to go with the Ruger LCP, being I do not like DAO without second strike. |
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Then post up something other than your "opinion" on it... I can say I talked to the Beretta parts department about getting a replacement sight tool for my CX4, but am I talking to someone that has any importance in the question at hand? Former LE/Mil reps. Ya...I think they've got some relevance. What is the "low round count" at which you described failures? Well under 20,000....many under 10,000. But, is it any different from saying the Cougar breaks, when many people pick up trade-ins and have a reliable pistol? And how, exactly, do they define "reliable"? Lots of Taurus owners claim they have reliable weapons, and from their perspective they do. I know a very satisfied Taurus owner who has owned and loved his pistol for six years...and he just finished the original 50 round box of FMJ it came with. I have an uncle who bought a .380 Beretta back during the Nixon administration. His gun is great, in his opinion, even though he just finished the original 50 round box of FMJ he bought with it. Even if you have an individual with a single weapon that works great, that's not as useful as data on hundreds or thousands of guns run through a minimum number of rounds annually for training and qualifications...which is why data from agency issue is useful. Speaking personally, my daily carry gun, a S&W M&P is reliable. I say that it is reliable because I've put over 10,000 rounds through it this year alone. The only malfunctions have been a couple of squib rounds (ammo issue, new production Winchester white box and Federal American Eagle FMJ) and one FTX (winchester white box FMJ) because the weapon was dirty as hell (WWB's notoriously undersized case rims don't help either) after a few thousand rounds without cleaning. How many Cougar owners are shooting their guns that much? What results are they getting with that kind of round count? Better question, have you owned one? How about shot one? Yes, and yes. ...and when the damn thing didn't work right, I got rid of it. The argument I quoted above is just completely lopsided... let’s say I talk about the Sigma, and due to that one design, all striker fired pistols are garbage. That would be difficult to do since there are lots of examples that show that SFA pistols actually work very well. You can't really point to a rotary gun that has enjoyed the success and widespread use of Glock or the M&P. (Incidentally, some of the M&P's success is due to S&W hiring some of the people that Beretta never listened to...there's a lesson there.) |
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Former LE/Mil reps. Ya...I think they've got some relevance. Salesmen… if you want my personal opinion. We’ve had SIG reps come down a few times, and while there were some that actually knew about guns, there were some that really only knew bottom lines… so saying that they are a representative does not mean a thing, in my eyes. Quoted:
Well under 20,000....many under 10,000. Well, sometime in February, I will attest to 10,000 rounds through my PX4 (that is a complete estimate, being as long as my shipment of ammo comes in, as well as free time; if I don't get time, figure by April, which is still within a year from me bringing it home). Shy of that, go on BerettaForum and tell those that have accomplished those numbers that their guns are broken… Quoted:
Yes, and yes. ...and when the damn thing didn't work right, I got rid of it. So, what exactly was wrong? Quoted:
You can't really point to a rotary gun that has enjoyed the success and widespread use of Glock or the M&P. (Incidentally, some of the M&P's success is due to S&W hiring some of the people that Beretta never listened to...there's a lesson there.) Wait a second… the PX4 came out in 2004 and from your own post, it is still up in the air. I’ll give you that, being time does tell. How come the M&P, which came out a year later, is a success? You can rattle departments using the M&P for about as long as those that use the PX4… I admit, the M&P is a good pistol that shows promise, but if you are going to say that is a success and the PX4 still needs time to see, then I can very well label that; troll. |
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Salesmen… No, not just "salesmen"...they are also the people that departments called when guns ran into trouble or they had issues with Beretta. They also were responsible for bringing feedback to Beretta from customers. I'm talking about dudes like Ernie Langdon...who wasn't just a "salesman" while at Beretta. Take a look: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17246&highlight=cougar –– ToddG is a former Beretta employee. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17273 - J works training for the academy of a large LE agency Well, sometime in February, I will attest to 10,000 rounds through my PX4 (that is a complete estimate, being as long as my shipment of ammo comes in, as well as free time; if I don't get time, figure by April, which is still within a year from me bringing it home). Shy of that, go on BerettaForum and tell those that have accomplished those numbers that their guns are broken… You missed the point entirely. I have that many rounds through my personal gun and I can point to lots of other people who put more through their gun in a year than I have this year...but how many cougar or PX4 owners have the same thing? How many malfunctions did they experience? Did they keep an accurate log? How many can really document that round count? Locally I personally knew officers that bought Cougars and suffered barrel lug breakages at low round counts...under 5,000 in one instance. They were reportedly not the only ones suffering breakage problems, and lots of departments complained about reliability issues. Etc. So, what exactly was wrong? FTE's (multiple ammo brands) that a trip back to Beretta did not fix. Wait a second… the PX4 came out in 2004 and from your own post, it is still up in the air. I’ll give you that, being time does tell. How come the M&P, which came out a year later, is a success? You can rattle departments using the M&P for about as long as those that use the PX4… Oh, really? Because the list of departments using the M&P is pretty darn long...and growing by the day. There are far more M&P's in police holsters in the US than PX4's...and if you can prove I'm wrong about that I'll buy you a year's team membership. I admit, the M&P is a good pistol that shows promise, but if you are going to say that is a success and the PX4 still needs time to see, then I can very well label that; troll. No, you can't, because it's about numbers. A gun that has 1,000 units has less of a dataset than one with 10,000 units in use. How many PX4's are in police use vs. M&P's right now? As I said, if you can prove that there are more PX4's in police service than M&P's I'll buy you a year's gold level team membership. There's nothing "troll" about it.
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Interesting. After reading through the above listed links, I didn't see the horribly scathing reviews of the PX4 I was expecting to find. Even ToddG stated that every PX4 Storm he had used functioned fine. It seems as though many people bad mouth the pistol on word of mouth rather than personal experience. If there are inherent issues with this pistol I am all ears, but it seems people have more of a personal issue with the rotating barrel design (specifically the Cougar) rather than functional issues with the PX4. I remember reading that Beretta did make changes in the barrel lug and the block design on the PX4. I have never owned a Cougar and cannot relate to the functioning of those pistols. It is a mechanical device and as such, it is susceptible to having issues at some point. If I am missing something, please enlighten me .
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I finally got some time to check back and see all the posts with opinions of this gun.
I have been looking for a REAL handgun after buying a S&W Sigma as my first ever handgun ( I know.... that's why I'm taking my time with this one )
I bought a Sig mosquito to practice with and really enjoy that gun. I can actually hit what I'm aiming at. I like the double action/single action type with external hammer. I can't really afford or justify the cost of the Sig I would like so the options start to get slim. From what I've read, both here and many other places, there are some negative reviews, there are negative reviews for every gun out there. My round count wouldn't be more than around 500/year, so failures at 20,000 rds shouldn't really concern me. I'm going to find somewhere to shoot the guns on my short list and make a decision from there. Thanks for the input....and play nice 
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Interesting. After reading through the above listed links, I didn't see the horribly scathing reviews of the PX4 I was expecting to find. ...that's because they were speaking about the Cougar, which is what I was speaking about earlier. The Cougar's history isn't great...thus I would be hesitant to jump on the PX4 with so many other options on the market that don't use a system that's difficult to get right. |
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I need to buy a new handgun. What (if any) experience do you guys have with this Clicky I looked at one today,I didn't get a chance to fire it but it feels good in my "comedy large" hands and I love the feel of the trigger.
I've shot, and like the Glock 22 and still might go with that. Whatever I get it will be .40 cal. Thanks in advance. My hands aren't "comedy large", but are "large". The PX4 subcompact puts the pad of my finger on the trigger better than any other pistol in the size range that I've looked at. |
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I have been a military and LE salesman/marksman/know it all/special forces operator (with over 15,000 confirmed kills) for 175 years, thats probably close to 50 years more than most people have been alive.
I can tell you, without a doubt, the that Cougar is the worst handgun ever. I would much rather take a quality High Point or Lorcin over a junky Cougar. Did I mention that my relevance to the Cougar is non-existent? But that does not matter, because I talked to people who first hand say the Cougar sucks. Therefore, you shall take what I say as gospel, and rid yourselves of your junky Cougars!! Well.... heres a picture to distract you! 
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I have been a military and LE salesman/marksman/know it all/special forces operator (with over 15,000 confirmed kills) for 175 years, thats probably close to 50 years more than most people have been alive. I can tell you, without a doubt, the that Cougar is the worst handgun ever. I would much rather take a quality High Point or Lorcin over a junky Cougar. Did I mention that my relevance to the Cougar is non-existent? But that does not matter, because I talked to people who first hand say the Cougar sucks. Therefore, you shall take what I say as gospel, and rid yourselves of your junky Cougars!! Well.... heres a picture to distract you! http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-dog-pictures-not-amused.jpg 
Whatever, dude. If you want to pretend that actual results from agency issue of a weapon and a company's history shouldn't factor into a purchase decision, be my guest. It's your money and your rear end on the line. |
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I have been a military and LE salesman/marksman/know it all/special forces operator (with over 15,000 confirmed kills) for 175 years, thats probably close to 50 years more than most people have been alive. I can tell you, without a doubt, the that Cougar is the worst handgun ever. I would much rather take a quality High Point or Lorcin over a junky Cougar. Did I mention that my relevance to the Cougar is non-existent? But that does not matter, because I talked to people who first hand say the Cougar sucks. Therefore, you shall take what I say as gospel, and rid yourselves of your junky Cougars!! Well.... heres a picture to distract you! http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-dog-pictures-not-amused.jpg
Whatever, dude. I agree. Some people have a fancy for really expensive guns and they can have at it. My Cougar is the best pistol I have owned to date and it's very reliable with no issues. I paid a whole $349 for it.
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I have been a military and LE salesman/marksman/know it all/special forces operator (with over 15,000 confirmed kills) for 175 years, thats probably close to 50 years more than most people have been alive. I can tell you, without a doubt, the that Cougar is the worst handgun ever. I would much rather take a quality High Point or Lorcin over a junky Cougar. Did I mention that my relevance to the Cougar is non-existent? But that does not matter, because I talked to people who first hand say the Cougar sucks. Therefore, you shall take what I say as gospel, and rid yourselves of your junky Cougars!! Well.... heres a picture to distract you! http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-dog-pictures-not-amused.jpg  Too funny, but I see where you are coming from. It seems that the PX4 is being branded by the perceived issues of it's predecessor, the Cougar. Usually, when someone bashes a given pistol or rifle documentation is normally expected to validate the claims that said firearm is junk, but in the case of the PX4, it isn't needed and heresay/speculation should be all that is required. If I happen to have any issues with my PX4 I will be sure and let everybody know.
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Too funny, but I see where you are coming from. It seems that the PX4 is being branded by the perceived issues of it's predecessor, the Cougar. Usually, when someone bashes a given pistol or rifle documentation is normally expected to validate the claims that said firearm is junk, but in the case of the PX4, it isn't needed and heresay/speculation should be all that is required. If I happen to have any issues with my PX4 I will be sure and let everybody know.
Trade it now, it's junk! I have no factual basis to back this claim up, or any emperical evidence whatsoever, but trust me dude, you will do yourself a favor if you rid yourself of this junk! |
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Well, I can certainly understand John Wayne's point that the track record with a certain design type should be taken into consideration, I think that time and the performance of this weapon should be evaluated.
Someone HAS to have taken a PX4 or a couple of PX4s, a few cases of ammo and shot the hell of them, thrown them down on the ground, backed over them with the truck, etc. Someone has to have stress tested this gun. Some agency or group has to have beat one of these things to find out what it can and cannot take. I think that we should try and find an actual review of this gun and reference it. If you want immediate advice, then you should get the M&P right now and wait maybe get the PX4 on the next go 'round. |
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I have one in 9. I rented one twice before buying it and had zero issues. Upon actually buying mine and handling it at home, its made incredibly well. It doesn't feel as cheap as other polymers, its sturdy, its solid, its purdy. With limited round count I've had no issues other than when the slide was locked back, empty mag. Put the new mag in, rack the slide back and it'd cause the round to not feed. Could be me being an idiot, could be the gun, could be the fact that its a rental, no idea. If I just released the slide with the slide lock, zero issues.
Other than that well I love the stupidly simple field strip...i.e. if you pointed it at someone and they knew how to do it you'd wind up with a gun in two pieces in about a second  Otherwise it's great. The fact a lot of police departments use S&W's more doesn't mean shit. Its an American vs an Italian company, that alone is going to give preference. In doing my research before purchasing the people who OWNED them always had great things to say and that would be after putting thousands of rounds through them, the people who went on heresay, bias, or misinformation tended to think silly, untrue things. And lastly, some people don't like the look, I love it. All in all other than the issue on the rental gun I described, its great. I still don't know if that was the gun or me or both.
Also one last bit that could be purely speculation. Many people who DO like Berettas are unwilling to get a PX4 because of their love of the M9/92FS and thus they don't need anything better. I've seen far more praise than not about the gun, but lots of ignorance floatin about. |
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Well I decided to buy one of these... I got it at Cabela's and using their $100 off coupon, including taxes, I paid less than $500.
I read the manual, no surprises there. The take down (like everyone says) is a no brainer. The fit and finish are as good as anything else I've seen in that category. I checked it and cleaned it at home, put the biggest backstrap on, then took it to the range. I put 50 rounds of decent personal defense ammo through it first. No issues with that. The gun is far more accurate that I am. I then put 250 rounds of cheap reload ammo through it with no issues at all. Like I said in an earlier post, I also have a .40 Sigma. Using that same cheap ammo I would regularly get misfires and fail to feed problems. I saw lots of comments about the recoil being much less than other .40 cal weapons, I didn't think there was a noticeable difference. Took the gun home and cleaned it again. The deposits did seem to be much less evident inside the gun. Maybe that's because of the locked breach, I don't know but it stayed quite clean away from the barrel. A few people have mentioned that the magazines are very difficult to load, some even saying that they could not get the full 14 rounds to load. The gun does come with a loading tool but I found it to be just as easy to load normally. The last round is quite difficult to load. one small complaint: when the gun is fully loaded with 14+1 the magazine rattles a little. I don't know why it should do that but my Sigma does it too  I don't think my Glock mags do that.
I can't wait to take it to the range again and see if my skills improve
Only time will tell how this gun performs, but for now I couldn't be happier with it. Merry Christmas
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| I just had my first PX4 experience in .40 cal. All I can say is wow! It is much softer shooting than my issued G22 with the same ammo, and much more accurate. I'm not a huge fan of DA/SA, but could live with it, if a smith could shorten/lighten it up some. The reset is pretty long. How is the .45 version? What is the constant action? Is it like DAO? I wish they made this gun in single action only, I'd buy one now, in .45. |
| My brother owns a PX4. He only has about 300 rounds through it so far. It is pretty sweet gun, I have shot it a couple of times. However,the last time I was visiting my brother, we were comparing our guns. He racked the slide back and handed it to me. I noticed that the plastic rails toward the front of the frame were worn badly, It appeared that the slide was eating at the frame every time it cycled. We checked the slide for a burr or anything, but found nothing. Then I got out my XDm (2000 round count) and XD sc (1500 round count) and compared the frames. The XDs rails are at least twice as thick as the PX4. My brother loves that gun and was broken hearted to see that. But other than that, the PX4 seems to be a decent gun, albeit, his is not even broke in yet |
| I'm not interested in getting into some internet pissing match with anybody and, quite frankly, I have no dog in this fight. All I'm looking for are some specific facts related to any problems related to rotary barrels pistol designs. Last night I had the opportunity to fire a PX4 .40 and I liked it quite a bit. However, with that said, I wouldn't want to put $500+ dollars down on a pistol and then have it fail on me a year or two after I purchase it. So, with that said, can anyone tell me specifically what are the problems with rotary barrels. I'm ASSuming it violates the KISS principle because extra moving parts have a greater tendency to fail under stress. |
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i have one. got it when they first came out. i refinished it in flat black molyresin and added night sights. i like it becase it feels great in my small hands. i prefer my sig 226 overall, but the px4 just fits my hand perfectly. never had any problems with it. edit: it "feels" like it has less recoil then my other 9mm pistols. i wish it used beretta 92 mags.  |
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Well, if you look at the bottom of this page the German State Police had an Italian proof house fire 10,000 rds each throug 3 seperate PX4s with no problems. http://www.berettale.com/catalog_PX4.htm ETA- On Beretta Forum it is claimed that Beretta has shot over 100k through a PX4 without a catastrophic failure. |
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Not a huge fan of two tone on any pistol usually, but that certainly makes it look a good bit different having never seen one before! Did you paint the mag too? Or just a lot of exposure where its slightly creeping out of the mag well? I did not paint anything... I sent it to CCR for cera-plate. It is similar to NP3, but a better price (arguably a better plating; for more info, read reviews on SIG Forum). All of my other guns are stainless, so I had this plated to match. I plan on doing the same to my LCP and whatever my next pistol will be. I'm also waiting until they are able to do long guns, so I can have my 870 Police done. It is a good finish, especially for guns in roles that increase corrosion. All of my magazines were done, as well. Other than that, I had Trijicon night sights, Stealth controls (turns the gun into a G model, which only decocks), and stainless guide rod installed. The only thing I could want to improve would be the barrel. I wanted to get an extended SD barrel, and have that plated to be able to swap in. |