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11/7/2010 5:41:58 PM EDT
I am a 60 year old guy with CCW.  I'm in good health and physical condition for my age but as I practice (HK USP40), I'm realizing it is more difficult to hold the sight stationary on target.   I don't have tremers or anything like that, it's just hard to remain perfectly motionless.  I can only attribute this to age.  Does anyone have any suggestions or have any of the older guys experienced this?  What do you think;  Laser Grips, Judge.???????  And remember before you just tell me to check in to the nursing home, you're gonna be 60 some day too.
11/7/2010 5:54:31 PM EDT
[#1]
You're never going to be able to hold it still.  

Just focus on the fundamentals.  Concentrate on the front sight while aiming in the direction of the target.  Then SQUEEZE.

Laser sights just exaggerate movement.  But you might try a red dot sight.

Also, the 40 is very snappy.  I carry a 40 also and I notice after awhile, I'll develop a flinch.  Maybe try a 9mm or space out your shooting sessions with lots of 22LR pistol in between shooting your 40.
11/7/2010 5:55:36 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't think Lasergrips would solve your shaking problem.  I use lasergrips with new shooters to show them when they flinch and how bad.  Is it effecting your ability to hit center of mass?  Because if you can still hit center of mass and you're a CCW guy I say you're gtg.
11/7/2010 5:57:06 PM EDT
[#3]
You're concentrating too much.  Unlike a scoped rifle where you hold the crosshairs on target before firing, just focus on the target.  Once everything "feels" like its lined up, squeeze the trigger.

Do this, get a blank sheet of paper and put a orange sticker in the middle.  Focus on the target and bring the gun up to your line of sight.  Once the sights block the target, fire.  Run a mag this way and see what you grouping looks like.  If you're grouping well, regardless of where the shots are going, you know you've got the rhythm down.  Then, work on adjusting the impact point.
11/7/2010 7:03:20 PM EDT
[#4]
No one holds a weapon, especially an unsupported handgun, on target motionless...the idea is to squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...not on the target, wait....on the target....eeeeze the trigger.

Trigger control = being able to stop 3 or 4 times during the pull when the "shot isn't right".

I would also suggest that you attempt to find a good hand gun coach and get some instruction...I know this sounds silly but, even though I thought I was a decent pistol shot, I'm on a new team here in 'stan and the "pistol coach" had me move my support hand thumb placement by maybe 1/4" if that and it made a huge difference in my shot group.

Just saying that if you're doing something else fundamentally wrong, you will never reach your full potential.
11/8/2010 12:28:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Accept your wobble, nobody holds the gun completely steady!  I am assuming you are not shooting too close, in that case, focus and watch the sights and make a smooth squeeze.  Like the previous, shoot at a white piece of paper and try to pull smoothly and hit center.  Smooth squeeze and make sure the sights don't dip!  did I say smooth?  All you need for CCW!

center 'em up!  
billy

with a good squeeze and acceptance of your wobble, you will find the gun going off more in the center.   AAHHHHHH!  there we go!   Don't anxiety your self and yank it!
practice the fundamentals and you'll be fine.  BTW, I am 63.
11/8/2010 4:24:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Accuracy is about two things: Trigger control and sight alignment.

Accept right now that you cannot hold your pistol so steady that the sights do not move. You can only achieve that with a good rest. Every other human being on earth who shoots a pistol offhand has to learn to deal with at least some movement in the sights. Some people like Rob Leatham who have forearms the size of a Buick and a grip like a gorilla on steroids see very little movement. Normal human beings see more movement, but can still hit a target if they understand how to manage the sights. The key is to keep the sights perfectly aligned without worrying about exactly where on the target the aiming point looks like it is.

What it takes on the sights to make a precise shot at 7 yards is very different than what it takes to make a precise shot at 25. At 7 yards the natural movement of your sights doesn't seem like much on a reasonable target, like this UPC code:



Shot at 5 yards it wasn't hard to produce that group.

When you move the target to 25 yards, however, suddenly you're looking at this:



With the natural movement of the sights it now looks like your sights are all over the bloody target.

That trips people up. Here's the reality:

That natural movement is there at 7 yards and at 25 yards...and it's the same amount of movement. If you move the gun in a 2" circle around the target at 2 yards and then do the same thing with the target at 25 yards, it's the same 2" circle...but because of the distance it LOOKS like a 3 foot circle at 25 yards. What you have to learn is that the sights can be on the edge of the target and still hit center at those longer distances:



Now my front sight was not sitting right under the orange dot when I fired that 5 shot string. I couldn't SEE the dot at 25 yards. I just tried to keep the sights perfectly aligned and somewhere around the center area of the black, (sometimes the sights were on the left side of the black, sometimes on the right side of the black, sometimes in the top 1/3, sometimes in the lower 1/3) took the slack out of the trigger, and then executed a proper trigger press. The flyer seen (which is still in the black, you'll notice) came from a failure to properly align my sights. I didn't have that bullseye perfect sight orientation but it still landed in the 8 ring at 25 yards.

What a lot of people do is see their sights moving around and then when they get the sight picture somewhere close to where they want it, they think "NOW!" and then gank the shot, slapping the trigger and anticipating recoil. Learning to get over the psychological fakeout of the ever-moving sights is a huge issue for lots of folks. Learning to understand how to manage the sights is a big hurdle as far as accuracy goes for many people. Even with a good understanding of proper trigger control I still struggled to shoot accurately at longer ranges because I didn't understand how to handle the sights. I could shoot one hole groups at 7 yards, but at 25 I was lucky to keep it on paper. If you can shoot 1 hole groups at 3-7 yards your trigger control is where it needs to be. If not, work on that. If you don't know how to manage your sight picture at longer ranges, however, it can cluck up your results. Using the same trigger control I eventually learned to handle the "wobble zone" (copyright Vickers Tactical) and then I started shooting a lot better. I'm not the most accurate shooter in the world, but I shot a 625 in the 700 aggregate in June of this year, the 25 yard version. Had I not been an assclown on some of the easy shots, I would have been able to shoot at least 640.

Some tips:

The longer you hang the gun out there it the more you screw yourself. One of the most revealing things I've ever seen was watching LAV shoot the walkback drills. On more than one occasion I saw him press out, hang for a second, and then bring the gun back into his chest, look down, and then press out again. He was doing a mental reset. Generally after doing that he scored a hit, usually a damn good one. The longer you hang the gun out there the more the sights move, the more the sights move the more pressure you feel to try and pull the trigger at the exact moment that the sight picture looks ideal, which leads to poor trigger manipulation and often anticipation of the shot.

Try using a laser. Some folks find it easier to pick up this lesson using a laser and then can translate what they've learned back to the iron sights. Lasers are never still and they exaggerate the appearance of movement, meaning you have to learn to break the shot despite having an acceptable level of movement on the target downrange. Once you figure out that your hits can be great even when the laser is dancing a bit you can translate that into using the irons. With the irons if you keep the sights properly aligned with each other and stop worrying about exactly which exact part of the target the front sight is sitting on and then break a clean shot (taking the slack out of the trigger and then once the actual sear engagement starts properly pressing the trigger to the rear without disrupting the sights) you'll find that you generally hit center more often than not.

This is one of those things that folks can tell you about, but you have to actually do it a few times to really learn the lesson. I struggled with this for a long time in my shooting. Once it started clicking, though, it started working GREAT. I'm by no means a great pistoleer, but if you ask the guys I've shot with around here they'll tell you that I'm generally a pretty accurate shooter. I'm not really all that good...I just learned how to handle the "wobble zone" of the sights and how to pull the trigger properly.

If you learn to manage the "wobble zone" in your sights and you learn to pull the trigger with that perfect trigger press, you'll be able to make incredible shots...like maybe hitting a steel silhouette target at 130+ yards.[/QUOTE]
11/8/2010 5:34:18 AM EDT
[#7]
there will always be a wobble zone and unlike someone posted above with iron sights your focus is NEVER on the target but on the sights- especially the front. most older folks have presbyopia which is to say far vision is better than near (need ing reading glasses) you want to clearly read the front sight ensure you have the right kind of glasses on to keep the front sight crisp and target fuzzy.
11/8/2010 5:42:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
No one holds a weapon, especially an unsupported handgun, on target motionless...the idea is to squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...not on the target, wait....on the target....eeeeze the trigger.

Trigger control = being able to stop 3 or 4 times during the pull when the "shot isn't right".
I would also suggest that you attempt to find a good hand gun coach and get some instruction...I know this sounds silly but, even though I thought I was a decent pistol shot, I'm on a new team here in 'stan and the "pistol coach" had me move my support hand thumb placement by maybe 1/4" if that and it made a huge difference in my shot group.

Just saying that if you're doing something else fundamentally wrong, you will never reach your full potential.



This is widely discouraged. Choosing your shot encourages a flinch because, by definition, you KNOW when the gun is going to go BANG and most people will unconsciously pull the gun off target in anticipation of the coming recoil. If it works for you, that's great, but it flies in the face of just about all experts' advice.



11/8/2010 5:50:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
You're never going to be able to hold it still.  

Just focus on the fundamentals.  Concentrate on the front sight while aiming in the direction of the target.  Then SQUEEZE. Do not "squeeze" the trigger. PRESS it.

Laser sights just exaggerate movement.  But you might try a red dot sight.

Also, the 40 is very snappy.  I carry a 40 also and I notice after awhile, I'll develop a flinch.  Maybe try a 9mm or space out your shooting sessions with lots of 22LR pistol in between shooting your 40.


I'd also recommend going to a 9mm.

11/8/2010 1:07:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Accuracy is about two things: Trigger control and sight alignment.

Accept right now that you cannot hold your pistol so steady that the sights do not move. You can only achieve that with a good rest. Every other human being on earth who shoots a pistol offhand has to learn to deal with at least some movement in the sights. Some people like Rob Leatham who have forearms the size of a Buick and a grip like a gorilla on steroids see very little movement. Normal human beings see more movement, but can still hit a target if they understand how to manage the sights. The key is to keep the sights perfectly aligned without worrying about exactly where on the target the aiming point looks like it is.

What it takes on the sights to make a precise shot at 7 yards is very different than what it takes to make a precise shot at 25. At 7 yards the natural movement of your sights doesn't seem like much on a reasonable target, like this UPC code:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190002AmericaNew_York2010.jpg

Shot at 5 yards it wasn't hard to produce that group.

When you move the target to 25 yards, however, suddenly you're looking at this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190036AmericaNew_York2010.jpg

With the natural movement of the sights it now looks like your sights are all over the bloody target.

That trips people up. Here's the reality:

That natural movement is there at 7 yards and at 25 yards...and it's the same amount of movement. If you move the gun in a 2" circle around the target at 2 yards and then do the same thing with the target at 25 yards, it's the same 2" circle...but because of the distance it LOOKS like a 3 foot circle at 25 yards. What you have to learn is that the sights can be on the edge of the target and still hit center at those longer distances:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185842AmericaNew_York2010.jpg

Now my front sight was not sitting right under the orange dot when I fired that 5 shot string. I couldn't SEE the dot at 25 yards. I just tried to keep the sights perfectly aligned and somewhere around the center area of the black, (sometimes the sights were on the left side of the black, sometimes on the right side of the black, sometimes in the top 1/3, sometimes in the lower 1/3) took the slack out of the trigger, and then executed a proper trigger press. The flyer seen (which is still in the black, you'll notice) came from a failure to properly align my sights. I didn't have that bullseye perfect sight orientation but it still landed in the 8 ring at 25 yards.

What a lot of people do is see their sights moving around and then when they get the sight picture somewhere close to where they want it, they think "NOW!" and then gank the shot, slapping the trigger and anticipating recoil. Learning to get over the psychological fakeout of the ever-moving sights is a huge issue for lots of folks. Learning to understand how to manage the sights is a big hurdle as far as accuracy goes for many people. Even with a good understanding of proper trigger control I still struggled to shoot accurately at longer ranges because I didn't understand how to handle the sights. I could shoot one hole groups at 7 yards, but at 25 I was lucky to keep it on paper. If you can shoot 1 hole groups at 3-7 yards your trigger control is where it needs to be. If not, work on that. If you don't know how to manage your sight picture at longer ranges, however, it can cluck up your results. Using the same trigger control I eventually learned to handle the "wobble zone" (copyright Vickers Tactical) and then I started shooting a lot better. I'm not the most accurate shooter in the world, but I shot a 625 in the 700 aggregate in June of this year, the 25 yard version. Had I not been an assclown on some of the easy shots, I would have been able to shoot at least 640.

Some tips:

The longer you hang the gun out there it the more you screw yourself. One of the most revealing things I've ever seen was watching LAV shoot the walkback drills. On more than one occasion I saw him press out, hang for a second, and then bring the gun back into his chest, look down, and then press out again. He was doing a mental reset. Generally after doing that he scored a hit, usually a damn good one. The longer you hang the gun out there the more the sights move, the more the sights move the more pressure you feel to try and pull the trigger at the exact moment that the sight picture looks ideal, which leads to poor trigger manipulation and often anticipation of the shot.

Try using a laser. Some folks find it easier to pick up this lesson using a laser and then can translate what they've learned back to the iron sights. Lasers are never still and they exaggerate the appearance of movement, meaning you have to learn to break the shot despite having an acceptable level of movement on the target downrange. Once you figure out that your hits can be great even when the laser is dancing a bit you can translate that into using the irons. With the irons if you keep the sights properly aligned with each other and stop worrying about exactly which exact part of the target the front sight is sitting on and then break a clean shot (taking the slack out of the trigger and then once the actual sear engagement starts properly pressing the trigger to the rear without disrupting the sights) you'll find that you generally hit center more often than not.

This is one of those things that folks can tell you about, but you have to actually do it a few times to really learn the lesson. I struggled with this for a long time in my shooting. Once it started clicking, though, it started working GREAT. I'm by no means a great pistoleer, but if you ask the guys I've shot with around here they'll tell you that I'm generally a pretty accurate shooter. I'm not really all that good...I just learned how to handle the "wobble zone" of the sights and how to pull the trigger properly.

If you learn to manage the "wobble zone" in your sights and you learn to pull the trigger with that perfect trigger press, you'll be able to make incredible shots...like maybe hitting a steel silhouette target at 130+ yards.
[/quote]

Great post John_Wayne777.  

Excellent information.   I'm gonna print it and share it with my wife and some of her shooting girlfriends.

11/8/2010 3:07:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
No one holds a weapon, especially an unsupported handgun, on target motionless...the idea is to squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...not on the target, wait....on the target....eeeeze the trigger.

Trigger control = being able to stop 3 or 4 times during the pull when the "shot isn't right".
I would also suggest that you attempt to find a good hand gun coach and get some instruction...I know this sounds silly but, even though I thought I was a decent pistol shot, I'm on a new team here in 'stan and the "pistol coach" had me move my support hand thumb placement by maybe 1/4" if that and it made a huge difference in my shot group.

Just saying that if you're doing something else fundamentally wrong, you will never reach your full potential.



This is widely discouraged. Choosing your shot encourages a flinch because, by definition, you KNOW when the gun is going to go BANG and most people will unconsciously pull the gun off target in anticipation of the coming recoil. If it works for you, that's great, but it flies in the face of just about all experts' advice.





But you can do this with lots of dry fire practice. It's a mental thing - the buildup of tension just as the trigger snaps can cause you to pull the shot off. Concentrate on relaxing  and removing the tension from it by practicing. I can take my time when sighting in or taking a long shot but normally I'm a 'snap shot'. This means I fire when the sights line up even if they're moving. This takes fast reflexes but if you can do it you can put a lot of holes in targets in a short time.