Posted: 12/11/2008 5:35:53 PM EDT
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I'm an unsatisfied customer.
I've owned a Nighthawk for about a year and have close to 2k rounds through it. When I first got it it had trouble feeding and ejecting. I like to fix things myself, so I tweaked with the extractor and the issues went away. But I still had trouble with it prematurely locking back with ammo in the mag. I tried figuring out what was causing this, but ended up talking to Nighthawk's CS about it. They had me trouble shoot a number of things including using different mags, having a right handed shooter shoot it, check the recoil spring, look at the bottom of the slide for marks, etc. Well, since it was still having trouble with a righty shooting it and we couldn't locate any other issue I decided to send it in. Now they've got it, said they shot it and can't replicate the issue. So they're going to charge me for shipping, cost of ammo, and range time. I'm absolutely aghast. This isn't my first 1911 and I generally deal with issues myself. I jumped through hoops to diagnose the issue based on their advice and couldn't get anywhere. And now they want to call me a liar and charge me for it. I've dealt with other high-end makers before. I brought a Wilson in because the front sight was loose. They agreed, replaced it, and gave me two free mags for my trouble. Didn't cost me a dime. I sent in my Ed Brown for some work and they not only did all the work for free but they re-bead blasted the gun and had it prettier than when it was new. In both cases, the makers went above and beyond what I expected or asked. You pay top $$ for these guns and do expect some service in return. This Nighthawk cost me over $3 grand and has been my most unreliable gun. And now they want to charge me some more money for having an unreliable gun that they aren't going to do anything about. Nice. |
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I believe they will record the shooting session and send it to you if requested.
While I doubt you'd have any reason to make stories up in a public forum, I also see no reason why, given the mostly positive experiences with Nighthawk's CS, they'd up and just stop for one customer. I'm willing to bet if they could reproduce the problem, they would fix it. When you get it back, try observing how you're holding it, what ammo you're shooting, what angle the gun is in your hand, whatever to try to isolate the problem. If you give them the exact steps leading up to a failure, they can and will fix it. However, it randomly locks back with ammo still in the mag when they can't reproduce it doesn't sound like a problem with the gun. It's possible that the slide stop has a slightly different shape than your other 1911 and you're touching it somehow. I'm not calling you a liar, however I also give them the benefit of the doubt same as you. They aren't likely trying to scam you. $100 or so is worth significantly less than the bad publicity, but if they can't find a problem would you rather they send it back and say its fixed when in reality they couldn't do anything? |
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Well, that sucks. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in as to what could be the cause.
Both my Enforcer and my Springfield GI run without problems, so my experience in tracking down a problem like that is limited to other people's experience and the theoretical. |
| I don't have much problem with them returning it unable to replicate it, but it's simple courtesy to ship back on their dime. Only a raving loon would pay money shipping a functional pistol in for no reason, and if said loon had $3,000 to blow on a first NH, simple courtesy would probably get the loon to buy another one or four more. If I believe in half the crap you buy (no reason not to) then it's a classic case of a company cheaping out on $35 in exchange for losing a repeat customer and his big mouth souring another 4 to 20 on their product. One more reason why I am a very satisfied Wilson customer. Some may like X or Y a little better, but when it comes to service, there's no BS about who's number 1. |
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Quoted: I believe they will record the shooting session and send it to you if requested. While I doubt you'd have any reason to make stories up in a public forum, I also see no reason why, given the mostly positive experiences with Nighthawk's CS, they'd up and just stop for one customer. I'm willing to bet if they could reproduce the problem, they would fix it. When you get it back, try observing how you're holding it, what ammo you're shooting, what angle the gun is in your hand, whatever to try to isolate the problem. If you give them the exact steps leading up to a failure, they can and will fix it. However, it randomly locks back with ammo still in the mag when they can't reproduce it doesn't sound like a problem with the gun. It's possible that the slide stop has a slightly different shape than your other 1911 and you're touching it somehow. I'm not calling you a liar, however I also give them the benefit of the doubt same as you. They aren't likely trying to scam you. $100 or so is worth significantly less than the bad publicity, but if they can't find a problem would you rather they send it back and say its fixed when in reality they couldn't do anything?  Nice apology for bad CS from Nighthawk.
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I believe they will record the shooting session and send it to you if requested. While I doubt you'd have any reason to make stories up in a public forum, I also see no reason why, given the mostly positive experiences with Nighthawk's CS, they'd up and just stop for one customer. I'm willing to bet if they could reproduce the problem, they would fix it. When you get it back, try observing how you're holding it, what ammo you're shooting, what angle the gun is in your hand, whatever to try to isolate the problem. If you give them the exact steps leading up to a failure, they can and will fix it. However, it randomly locks back with ammo still in the mag when they can't reproduce it doesn't sound like a problem with the gun. It's possible that the slide stop has a slightly different shape than your other 1911 and you're touching it somehow. I'm not calling you a liar, however I also give them the benefit of the doubt same as you. They aren't likely trying to scam you. $100 or so is worth significantly less than the bad publicity, but if they can't find a problem would you rather they send it back and say its fixed when in reality they couldn't do anything? Nice apology for bad CS from Nighthawk.No, I'm just not delusional. If I bring my car in for service insisting that something is wrong, but they can't find it, I get charged for the time spent trying to find the problem. If they find something that falls under warranty, they will reimburse me that money. I don't see Nighthawk doing any differently. If the OP finds what the problem is and they take it in for service, I would expect that they reimburse him for previously being unable to find it. However, charging for shipping and time spent to find a non-existent problem is standard operating procedure just about everywhere. Look at this way, Nighthawk has to charge somewhere for things like this. They either up the price on all their models to offset the cost or they charge the individual who sent something in that (supposedly) had a problem that couldn't be reproduced. It's simple economics, that's all. I'd rather not have to pay extra to make up for other people's problems. I fully expect that if I waste a company's time, I should have to pay for the time wasted. I'm not a fan of this sense of entitlement people seem to have when they pay more for something. I don't expect the BMW dealer to wipe my ass when I bring my car in for service or give me free stuff. It's nice when they have free food and drinks, but I don't exactly expect it. |
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So, I disagree that he should replace the slide stop himself.
The reality is that IF something is wrong and they can find it, they will replace it. The problem is that if they can't reproduce it and the OP didn't try firing the pistol held down by some vise/bench and fired with a piece of string, then it's still very possible that the problem is user error. It's not unheard of for two users to make the same mistakes. If you manage to find the problem, I'd say send it back to them, let them repair it, and request that they reimburse you for the money you had to pay when they failed to find the problem. I highly doubt they're lying when they say that they can't reproduce it. |
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No, I'm just not delusional. If I bring my car in for service insisting that something is wrong, but they can't find it, I get charged for the time spent trying to find the problem. If they find something that falls under warranty, they will reimburse me that money. I don't see Nighthawk doing any differently. If the OP finds what the problem is and they take it in for service, I would expect that they reimburse him for previously being unable to find it. However, charging for shipping and time spent to find a non-existent problem is standard operating procedure just about everywhere. Look at this way, Nighthawk has to charge somewhere for things like this. They either up the price on all their models to offset the cost or they charge the individual who sent something in that (supposedly) had a problem that couldn't be reproduced. It's simple economics, that's all. I'd rather not have to pay extra to make up for other people's problems. I fully expect that if I waste a company's time, I should have to pay for the time wasted. I'm not a fan of this sense of entitlement people seem to have when they pay more for something. I don't expect the BMW dealer to wipe my ass when I bring my car in for service or give me free stuff. It's nice when they have free food and drinks, but I don't exactly expect it. Not if it's under warranty. I have been a tech at a fair number of high-end dealers, and if the complaint was under warranty we NEVER charged for diagnostics. Even if we couldn't find anything. We billed the manufacturer. And it is common practice in the same high-end automotive world to give people who have complaints (however unfounded) free things. Detail or wash. Full tank of gas. Loaner car. Ride to work. Etc... I have certainly see people given things like coffee mugs, key chains, etc.. who were inconvenienced or just vocal. Their failure to replicate the problem? No big issue. Their insistence on his paying for a (failed) diagnosis? Absolutely unacceptable. I own a few custom firearms, and if given this treatment I would be appalled. And I'd tell everyone I knew. Which is exactly what I did when I was treated less than properly by another custom handgun maker. |
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My experience with NH would lead me to give them the benefit of the doubt; i don't know wilsonCQB, but I do know NH. Two purchases; fantastic customer service.
I would certainly NOT draw conclusions based on one side of this story. Get larry Lyles on here and explain the policy of NH; with Wilson's permission I am sure he would even give details, including pics, to explain the other side of this particular situation. Paying for two way shipping, plus two or three hours of an employee's time, plus ammo, would give NH a net loss on every pistol that comes in with phantom problems. I know they give the benefit of the doubt to the customer, so this situation must have been beyond the grey area from their perspective. Right now you have the equivalent of the husband's side of a divorce story. but of course, with a name like WILSON, I am sure we can assume objectivity RE Nighthawk. |
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I believe they will record the shooting session and send it to you if requested. While I doubt you'd have any reason to make stories up in a public forum, I also see no reason why, given the mostly positive experiences with Nighthawk's CS, they'd up and just stop for one customer. I'm willing to bet if they could reproduce the problem, they would fix it. When you get it back, try observing how you're holding it, what ammo you're shooting, what angle the gun is in your hand, whatever to try to isolate the problem. If you give them the exact steps leading up to a failure, they can and will fix it. However, it randomly locks back with ammo still in the mag when they can't reproduce it doesn't sound like a problem with the gun. It's possible that the slide stop has a slightly different shape than your other 1911 and you're touching it somehow. I'm not calling you a liar, however I also give them the benefit of the doubt same as you. They aren't likely trying to scam you. $100 or so is worth significantly less than the bad publicity, but if they can't find a problem would you rather they send it back and say its fixed when in reality they couldn't do anything? Nice apology for bad CS from Nighthawk.I thought Elbeeo's post was very diplomatic and sound. *shrug* |
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My experience with NH would lead me to give them the benefit of the doubt; i don't know wilsonCQB, but I do know NH. Two purchases; fantastic customer service. I would certainly NOT draw conclusions based on one side of this story. Get larry Lyles on here and explain the policy of NH; with Wilson's permission I am sure he would even give details, including pics, to explain the other side of this particular situation. Paying for two way shipping, plus two or three hours of an employee's time, plus ammo, would give NH a net loss on every pistol that comes in with phantom problems. I know they give the benefit of the doubt to the customer, so this situation must have been beyond the grey area from their perspective. Right now you have the equivalent of the husband's side of a divorce story. but of course, with a name like WILSON, I am sure we can assume objectivity RE Nighthawk. Research a little bit and you will find Larry Lyles response HERE and you won't have to imply that WilsonCQB1911 is fabricating anything! Maybe he owns numerous pistols by other manufacturers also! |
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I should do research for wilson's thread? Why didn't he post Larry's response, instead of just one side of the story?
Fabrication is not the same thing as failing to be objective. please note NBC News vis-a-vis Republicans. There is no better customer service in this business; if wilson's case is legit, it is an anomoly. |
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Quoted: We ? Do you have a mouse in your pocket ? It is obvious that you know NOTHING about the OP so I can assume you will stop making inane comments. ...Right now you have the equivalent of the husband's side of a divorce story. but of course, with a name like WILSON, I am sure we can assume objectivity RE Nighthawk.  |
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One side of the story is exactly that–– one side of the story. Please read my post carefully–– I said I did not know wilson, but that I know NH's CS to be topnotch based on personal experience, and I urged people not to draw conclusions from one side of the story.
what exactly is inane about that? Do you know what "inane" means? your use of the word "inane," in this case, was inane. that is known as irony. |
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Quoted: One side of the story is exactly that–– one side of the story. Please read my post carefully–– I said I did not know wilson, but that I know NH's CS to be topnotch based on personal experience, and I urged people not to draw conclusions from one side of the story. what exactly is inane about that? Do you know what "inane" means? your use of the word "inane," in this case, was inane. that is known as irony. Quoted: inane: lacking significance, meaning, or point...Right now you have the equivalent of the husband's side of a divorce story. but of course, with a name like WILSON, I am sure we can assume objectivity RE Nighthawk. I stand by what I said. |
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We ? Do you have a mouse in your pocket ? It is obvious that you know NOTHING about the OP so I can assume you will stop making inane comments. ...Right now you have the equivalent of the husband's side of a divorce story. but of course, with a name like WILSON, I am sure we can assume objectivity RE Nighthawk.
Thank you 
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Are you both nuts? Read what I wrote! NH is first class, in my experience. as I wrote, I don't know th OP wilson. I do know NH. they are first rate, based on two purchases. Wilson's experience may or may not be legit; did I mention i don't know him? He is the one who chose to leave out NH's responses to his concerns. Did he intend to damage NH with his post, by leaving out the fact that NH had responded, and had its own side to the story? NH will do ANYTHING to satisfy a customer, including video the testfiring. Did Wilson request that? Why choose to post here, and not on a thread where NH regularly responds?
Wilson the company, and NH the company, have a long history, and are direct and sometimes unfriendly competitors. If you call yourself Green Bay Packer, then offer an opinion about Chicago Bear, anyone would wonder whether you were capable of objective evaluation. good thing you two have each other. Good luck. |
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I didn't leave out NH's response. They hadn't responded when I posted. I work during the day. Someone already posted a link to my other thread that I started at the same time as this one. I post more here than anywhere else but I know NIghthawk frequents the other forum and I wanted them to see what I wrote, so I posted there as well. I'm not trying to sneak about. I wanted them to see it. I have nothing to hide.
Personally, I couldn't care less what you think of me. I don't owe you anything. What I'm getting from NH here is awful customer service, especially for a pistol that costs as much as it does. It's unheard of. Period. I don't care what company it is. If this were Wilson I'd be saying the same thing. It just so happens that my screen name is Wilson because that was one of my first pistols. Other than that, I don't owe allegiance to anyone. |
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All I can say is ............. WoW. This. And people wonder why Nighthawk is earning a bad rap as of late. And before anyone decides to run their suck ....I own a T3. While it has run like a champ and was put together well, I have continued to keep an ear to the ground over the last year and this tune is becoming far to common. |
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All I can say is ............. WoW. This. And people wonder why Nighthawk is earning a bad rap as of late. And before anyone decides to run their suck ....I own a T3. While it has run like a champ and was put together well, I have continued to keep an ear to the ground over the last year and this tune is becoming far to common. Blackwind is correct, I have always wanted a NH pistol and for quite a while now, there have been an awful lot of horror stories about them. Look at m1911.org and you will see a large amount of people posting problems with NH pistols. I looked at their Wilson forum and you rarely see a posting about problems. 
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OK, so it's their policy. I can understand their point, but I'm not sure I totally like it either.
I can also understand if people send in their pistols and have issues that are for sure their own problem, that reimbursing might not be unheard of. But this situation seems sort of grey to me. 50 rounds to test? I don't know. Why buy a Custom if they're not going to take care of you a little extra. I suppose for the quality gear. But if it's not working, then it's not the quality gear someone paid the extra money for. How come this issue doesn't come up with his Wilson? How come this issue doesn't come up with his 2 Colt's? How come this issue doesn't come up with his Kimber? I don't know if I'm missing any, but that is enough for me to see that one of these things is not like the other. Especially because I know he shoots all of them a fair amount. What is the solution since they can't find it? I don't know. But I don't think I'd be happy if I was in his shoes either. Of course, the most expensive Pistol I have is a Browning Hipower. And my Kimber Custom II. FWIW. I have no experience with these high dollar dealies. But his opinion does matter to me. |
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How come this issue doesn't come up with his Wilson? How come this issue doesn't come up with his 2 Colt's? How come this issue doesn't come up with his Kimber? Maybe because they aren't lemons? NH freely admits that some of their guns are, in fact, lemons. This is true of any mechanical device sold anywhere. |
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I just read the m1911 board thread. I didn't know Larry jumped ship to NH. I did know he wasn't working at Wilson currently, but my personal experience with him at Wilson led me to believe that he was one hell of a customer rep who was willing to go the extra mile for a customer.
But this isn't about Larry. This is about a policy from NH. I don't know where this policy concerns the OP and his purchase (common knowledge in/out of print before or after this NH was bought???), but it should be clear now. All semicustoms have pros and cons, some of which deal with customer service. This particular policy is most unfortunate. OP excluded from this hypothetical, if you have some jackass who is willing to blow $2,000-$4,000 on your product and sends it in because of limpwristing, you are a damned fool if his repeat business is not worth the $75 in return shipping and testing costs. Dismissing this case for a moment, this in my opinion speaks volumes about NH's prestige and their prioritization of their customers. This is the same philosophy that no fewer than three production companies adopted to their absolute downfall, and I hope NH reaps what it sews with plummeting sales. This chickenshit pettiness is something relegated to second rate, bean-counting, corner-cutting production pistol manufactuers, not semi custom outfits, which are expected to perform and produce considerably more. The best way to take such stinginess to task is to cast your dollar votes for the other guy who finds your patronage a little more valuable |
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How come this issue doesn't come up with his Wilson? How come this issue doesn't come up with his 2 Colt's? How come this issue doesn't come up with his Kimber? Maybe because they aren't lemons? NH freely admits that some of their guns are, in fact, lemons. This is true of any mechanical device sold anywhere. My point was he shoots the platform regularly. It's not something he's doing. I didn't really want to call it a lemon. But if the shoe fits.
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| Pulpsmack, You are correct in saying Larry Lyles was a great service rep at Wilson and he is even better at Nighthawk Custom. My experience with Larry at Nighthawk has always been positive and he will bend over backwards to help with any problem encountered or give courteous advice on any dumb questions I ask. I think the problem with WilsonCQB1911 is that the problem with the gun did not manifest itself during the test fire at NHC therefore how do you fix something when it appears to be functioning correctly. |
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All I can say is that happy customers spawn sales, unhappy customers make buyers reconsider their choices.
Just my .02 but I think Nighthawk should have tried much harder to reproduce the problem before dumping it back on the customer. After all these are hand build semi custom guns, not production line assemblies. |
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My feeling exactly. I told NH that I've had this problem for a year and have tried to diagnose it myself with no luck. I went through all their suggestions to diagnose or fix it and still had trouble, even with another shooter.
They get it, shoot 50 rounds, declare it absolutely fine, and want to charge me $120-200 and send it back. I wouldn't take that from a production manufacturer. In fact, they usually eat the cost and just send it back. NH says that they believe me... but a policy is a policy. Hmm...... I asked that they just dimple the slide stop and send it to me, but they don't want to do that. They're concerned that it wouldn't lock the slide back anymore. This isn't about them not finding a problem. It's about them being seemingly unwilling to address the issue (they were very hesitant to take it back) and then wanting to charge me after doing so little. I paid considerably for the gun. I do expect to at least get some modicum of customer service. I was told that they want to make sure I buy 3 or 4 of their guns. Seriously. |
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Buy three or four of their guns??? Why? The first one isn't working. Why move on to 2, 3, and 4.
Something just doesn't add up. Did you ask them why only 50 rounds? I could see if their worried about an owner not wanting them to put too much use on it, but I would think the priority would be to wring it out to find the problem and if it's OK with you, why not push it a little. To me, it seems like they don't believe you. Which is unfortunate, because they are taking your experience for granted. |
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Buy three or four of their guns??? Why? The first one isn't working. Why move on to 2, 3, and 4. Something just doesn't add up. Did you ask them why only 50 rounds? ... because they were to cheap to spring for a second box of ammo at the range... err, ahh.. I mean there is a strict company policy that states we can only fire 50 rounds thru a customer's gun... yeah, that's it, sorry, but it's policy. 
Total BS. "Company Policy" my backside. What about making a customer happy? I guess the customer service & marketing dept. at NH never heard the old addage, the 1 unhappy customer out of 100 customers, is the one people never forget. At this price range, I'd demand a brand new replacement. BTW NH needs to drop this "well we couldn't replicate the problem crock-o-meadow muffins"... you've got an unsatified customer that just dropped $3000 on your product. Make him happy, or he'll go somewhere else next time. This ain't rocket science. |
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Wilson, 50 rounds fired by NH? Where did you get that number? Did you see the video?
How many wilson loyalists would it take to bring down NH on a site like this? 10? 20? If you post your complaints on multiple sites, how does that affect the company? How does it affect your credibility? If you had a small business, poured your life savings into it, then ran into a customer who claims one of your products is defective, but no one can replicate the problem–– how would you handle it? the charge for shipping is a debatable topic; it's a tough call. Maybe NH should reconsider. But who among us has sent a pistol back to SA and they fail to replicate the problem? what was their solution? Or Wilson? Please share. You will have major league gunsmith talent AND the financial backer of the company personally deal with your problem. What else would you want? Free return shipping? Okay, let's take up a collection. |
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Wilson, 50 rounds fired by NH? Where did you get that number? Did you see the video? How many wilson loyalists would it take to bring down NH on a site like this? 10? 20? If you post your complaints on multiple sites, how does that affect the company? How does it affect your credibility? If you had a small business, poured your life savings into it, then ran into a customer who claims one of your products is defective, but no one can replicate the problem–– how would you handle it? the charge for shipping is a debatable topic; it's a tough call. Maybe NH should reconsider. But who among us has sent a pistol back to SA and they fail to replicate the problem? what was their solution? Or Wilson? Please share. You will have major league gunsmith talent AND the financial backer of the company personally deal with your problem. What else would you want? Free return shipping? Okay, let's take up a collection. Geohans, If you want to defend Nighhawk as a loyal customer that's your right. Attacking the credibility of another member who is unhappy with their customer service is not going to be allowed. I strongly suggest you stop with the insinuations against the OP's motives for voicing his displeasure. This is a Technical Forum and not General Discussions. |
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I love my Talon, but I gotta say that after reading this I'm not so sure I'd buy another. I'm not sure I'd let a friend buy one either after hearing this. The second they stop addressing the issues of their customers, charging for shit that should have been right out of the factory, cutting corners, and then asking the customer to pay an exorbitant shipping cost each time- they became a production company. IMO, they're about as 'custom' as a kimber custom 2. |
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If you had a small business, poured your life savings into it, then ran into a customer who claims one of your products is defective, but no one can replicate the problem–– how would you handle it? I would disassemble the gun and compare every single part to those from a 100% reliable pistol. There may be something wrong with the tolerances or geometry. |
| I just got a Talon II. Best 1911 I've ever had my hands on. Don't really have an opinion one way or the other about the OP and his claims. But I will say that ANYONE who would say they will no longer consider ever buying a NIghthawk product based on one internet post is kind of silly. YMMV. |