[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question from a newbie (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 3/7/2007 12:39:32 PM EDT
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Hi folks, I have an interest in handguns, but (living in Australia where they are very heavily restricted) have not yet had any opportunity to handle them personally. I was hoping someone would be able to answer the following question for me: In a standard DA/SA handgun such as a Sig P226, when a full magazine is first loaded into the gun, is it necessary to manually rack the slide in order for the gun to fire? Also, when the final round has been fired from the magazine, does the slide remain in its rear position? And if so, when a new mag is put in and the slide released forward, will the gun fire with a pull of the trigger? I was just hoping to get some clarification on this. Thanks. |
ETA good luck. TXL |
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Oz has been a staunch ally for us over the years, and is a great place full of great people. What a shame that a young man such as yourself (I assume you are a young man) does not have the opportunity to lawfully own, carry and shoot handguns due to a bunch of misguided and ignorant voters. I can only hope we are not headed down the very same road here. |
All semi autos. WHen you put the mag in - you must work the slide in order to get a round into the barrel from the magazine. The slight exception is that if U already have the slide locked back - THEN, once U insert the magazine, you can press the slide release button - it will close the slide and take 1 round off of the magazien and put it into the barrel. Essentially it is the same thing... Just 1 you have to pull the slide back and let go. The other, the slide is already back and U just push the release... Visit: ps90forum.com |
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Thanks very much guys, I really appreciate your explanations. You can own a handgun here in Australia, but there is quite a process before doing so. Essentially, you have to join a sporting gun club, which allows you to fulfil the 'legitimate reason' requirement for getting a license. Once you have the license, you then have to apply for a permit to aquire a gun, and when you get this permit you can go out and purchase. Also, there are restrictions on the type of gun that can be purchased - it must be no larger than .38 calibre (ie. 9mm is ok but not .40 or .45), the mag capacity must be no more than 10 rounds, and the barrel no shorter than 120 mm (or 100 mm for revolvers). Also, the gun must be stored in a very heavy safe or a safe which is bolted to the floor, and it is illegal to carry the gun around in public except in a locked case to and from the range / gunsmith etc. Civilian ownership of all semi-automatic rifles, semi-auto shotguns and pump actions was banned about a decade ago (except in very rare instances mostly related to agricultural applications). Believe it or not, despite the fact that I'm really interested in guns, I do support the restrictions that we have in place here. That said, I'm hoping to buy a pistol or perphaps a rifle in the next year or so. Again, thanks for explanations of handgun functioning, its appreciated. |
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Wow, that's some hoops to jump through! We know it makes your society safer (major sarcasm there!) For comparison, here in Texas... I can walk into a store, find a handgun I like, fill out the yellow form, they call me in, I pass the background check, pay for the gun, and walk out the door all within 30 minutes. When I get my Concealed Handgun License, they don't have to call it in. I can buy as many guns as I want. No requirements on storing them (although there are laws regarding access to minors - kid gets my gun and does something stupid with it, I can be held responsible. But I don't have kids and live alone, so I have no worries). Anyway, I'm gonna have to get down there someday to look up some family. Mom's mother was Aussie, so I have some distant rellies down there. |
If you're carrying it for self defense, it should have a full mag loaded with a round in the chamber and be properly holstered in a holster that provides good protection to the trigger. Keeping your finger off the trigger is the only reliable way of preventing an AD. If you would ever need to use it for self defense, you will not have time to rack the slide. My biggest suggestion is to go to a local range where you can rent a handgun and try a few out and try to get a range officer in there with you to show you exactly how they work and walk you through the operation of them. |
I know it's a little off topic, but might I ask why? |
Common? Nope. Certainly there's someone somewhere who does this, but it's foolish. What if you have only one hand to be operable? Then you're screwed.
No, the reliable way would be to not own a gun nor ammo.  Seriously, all shooters should learn to keep their finger OFF the trigger until they're ready to shoot. BTW, "accidental discharges" are about as rare as a politician telling the truth. What normally happens is a "negligent discharge", which is when someone pulls the GD trigger. The old bullshit about how a "gun just went off" is just that: bullshit. |
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Most people in Australia (and Europe and Japan amongst other places) believe that unrestricted gun ownership inevitably produces significantly higher rates of gun-related injuries and fatalies than is the case when guns are heavily restricted. The idea that civilian ownership of guns acts to deter or prevent violent crime is not accepted. Evidence of this is the fact that the murder rate in the United States is approximately five times higher than in Australia, and even greater than that for Japan and most European countries. In my opinion, it is not simply widespread gun ownership, but widespread gun ownership in combination with extensive poverty (ie. the existence of a large 'underclass', mostly comprised of minorities), which is responsible for the relatively high murder rate in the US. This explains why a country like Switzerland, which has high levels of private gun possession but almost no severe poverty, has a low murder rate. I recognize that the views of most AR15 members are diamerically opposed to those outline above, and I dont mean to be provocative in stating these things. I guess all I can say is that I really do like guns of all sorts, but I believe that for the broader good of society they need to be restricted to only those people who, through their financial and time investment in acquiring a license, can prove that they are generally trustworthy and responsible. In other words, I see Australia's current situation as a good compromise between the rights of individuals to pursue their recreational interets and the right of the public to be safe from gun violence. |
Here's the thing for me, and this is not trying to start an argument or debate with you. You can feel how you want to feel and I'll just agree to disagree. I live by the Constitution of the United States. The 2nd Amendment says absolutely nothing about recreation nor hunting. What it DOES say is "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This is stating that the people of our nation is our militia (militia is defined as civilians trained as soldiers but not part of the regular army) and we have the right to bear arms to ensure security and keep our nation free. By this rational, you could in fact say that all hunting guns and recreational guns should be banned and only guns that are suitable for tactical applications should be allowed, such as M4's and SAW's and RPG's or anything else like that you can think of. This is the perspective that I look at things of this nature. The reason the murder rate in the U.S. is so high is because most people here don't have respect for shit anymore. Nobody thinks you have to work for anything anymore and it should just be handed to them. Everyone thinks they've been discriminated on and everyone's so quick to pull the race card now for anything and everything. They think that because someone discriminated against their great great grandfather 150 years ago, they are owed something. My ancestors were American Indian but you don't see me blaming whitey at every corner thinking that I'm owed something or that I should be treated differently. You get what you work for and you are what you make yourself and people have no concept of this anymore. Well that was off topic...sorry. </rant> |
+1 |
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Yep, certainly we have very different constitutional traditions, stemming from the very different manner in which each of our countries cut ties with Britain. You guys fought a war for your independence, whereas the federation of our colonies occurred amicably and peacefully. As a result, our constitution contains no provisions whatsoever for the right to bear arms (and actually contains no explicitly formulated rights at all). Gun ownership is therefore not considered a 'right' in Australia, but instead is a privilege which is properly subject to government (and therefore popular, given that we are a democracy) oversight. Who would have thought a technical question about handguns would have evolved into a comparative discussion of constitutions? Anyway, its been good chatting with you guys. |
Good chatting with you as well. I always enjoy perspective from someone else...even when I disagree. It helps when both sides have a nice civilized conversation about differences and you actually learn something and everything is nice and friendly.... Sorry...I'm just not use to that sort of thing on the internet.
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On a different note, I've been searching around for a handgun that would fit within our regulations. Obviously there's a fair bit of choice in revolvers in .38 or .357, but I'd really prefer a semi-auto. I think the most common here are Glock 17s with an extended barrel and Glock 34s. The Glock 34 actually looks like a pretty decent pistol and not too expensive either. THe thing is that I really hate the look of Glock pistols, whereas I love the look of Sigs. I think the only option with Sig would be the P226 X5, but its about 4 times the price of the Glock over here. Guess I better start saving... |
.38 super 1911? |
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If you are allowed to have multiple firearms, then I suggest that you look into the revolvers as well as the semi-automatics. I started out with automatics (My first and favorite is the 1911 .45ACP) and while I enjoy shooting them at the range I have found revolvers to be great fun for recreational shooting as well. One of the great things about .357 revolvers is that you can shoot both the milder and cheaper .38 special rounds as well as the hotter, more exciting .357 rounds through the same weapon. I agree wholeheartedly that Glocks are terrilby ugly and unoriginal, not to mention they feel very awkward in my hand. Sigs are great weapons. In addition, the Browning Hi-power is a wonderful design that John Moses Browning made after creating his venerable 1911. They are also reasonably priced (over here at least). You could even get a 1911 chambered for 9mm if you save your pennies.
Actually, this would probably be the most exciting and rewarding weapon configuration available to you along with .357 magnum, if this was permitted (and it should be). The problem might be the cost of ammo, but that depends on how much you shoot. |
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hate to tell you that our crime rate has nothing to do with guns. Look at the FBIs uniform crime report and the department of justice websites. It's pretty clear that since somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-60% of crimes are committed by repeat offenders, that is where the real problem lies. Also, the low estimate of firearms preventing crimes is about 700,000 times a year.....plus the places that have the highest crime in the US also have the tightest restrictions, so apparently restricting guns doesn't stop crime...... I encourage you look this stuff up for yourself, it's very interesting and there is so much more involved than what I even went into (this is just stuff I remembered off the top of my head) anyways, have a good one.... |
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Roland, I've been following the debate over private firearms ownership for quite a long time, so I'm familiar with the arguments you're putting forward and I accept that some of them are valid to a degree. After carefully weighing the range of arguments, however, I do tend to fall on the gun control side of the debate. I think we've just got to agree to disagree on this one, and be happy with the fact that the situation re gun control in our respective countries is more or less as each of us would prefer it. Not that I would ever actually buy one, but I just realised that I can legally own a .357 magnum desert eagle. Given all our restrictions, I find that somewhat hilarious. Realistically, I think my best be will be to get a 9mm made by one of the major manufacturers, so that I can get plenty of range work in with cheap ammo and also to make sure that parts and accessories are readily available. For some reason I really love the look of Sig pistols, so I'm thinking about maybe a P226 X5 (although they're very expensive here). If I cant strech to the Sig then a Browning Hi Power is definitely a possibility. Believe it or not the Hi Power is still the standard issue side arm in the Australian military (though the SAS have p226s and USPs). Also, do any of you guys know if 10 round magazines are available for the standard P226? |
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I wish you would have told me about your position on the gun ban before I answered. It would have saved me time. You are part of the problem. You want to own a firearm, but you think that others should not be able to? Please take this time to go and fuck yourself. You are an enemy of freedom and personal liberety, no matter how polite. IMO, your only usefulness on this planet is to convert oxygen to carbon dioxide to feed a plant somewhere. Some day, you may need a firearm to defend yourself. I hope that when you do, you realize how fucking stupid your position is. TXL |
I read the whole discussion and I dont agree with the guy but you need to stop and think where he is coming from. Think about how we must look to a sane country like Australia or Switzerland. Don't give the guy such a hard time. Maybe once he joins a sporting club and gets a firearm of his own he'll come around. |
You will also find most of those countries are like Japan: homogeneous. IOW, 90-something % of the people are of the same race. Makes a difference in crime stats, sir. 
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Because................??????????? You think the Desert Eagle is some sort of magical killing machine???????? 
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I for one would like to welcome you to the site! Contrary to what some people here would like to believe in their own very very small, ignorant and stubborn worlds, you are NOT part of any problem that exists in this country, provided you are not actively supporting a UN ban on our consitutional rights. From what I gather, you don't seem like that type, and I would never assume that you were. Unlike others, I respect and understand your opinion and your beliefs. Coming from a different country it is very hard to understand how a society functions or rather does not, and when taken at face value, your opinions and beliefs about the US would appear to be accurate. Are they accurate? Who knows! I can't tell you why crime occurs in some areas, and not in others. We can speculate, we can logically analyze what we see, and that is the best we can do. Without being immersed in the culture, it is impossible to have a full understanding. Even when fully immersed one may STILL not be able to grasp what is going on or explain it. I personally feel that the diversity of the US, the subsequent poverty that arises from it, and the sad reality that there ARE illegally owned firearms out there ALL contribute to the crime we see- if I sat and thought about it for more than 30 seconds, I could think of plenty more logical causes. I also personally believe that due to the strength of the second amendment and our Country's strong gun culture, that the firearm laws that have been passed or that are in our legislation right now are pointless; they will make firearms largely available to criminals, and remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens. Countries like Japan have lower firearm related crimes, IMHO, because they restricted ownership from the time the firearm was invented- thus, criminals have very few means to obtain them, legally or not. This was not the case on the frontiers of America, and the simple fact is that there are so many out there that the laws would only effect those who care nothing about them to begin with. In a sense, the good people would be left defenseless. There is also the issue of a population being able to defend itself from Goverment, but as you noted, that is an issue that Americans place at much higher value than other countries due to how we started. Simply put, you and I grew up with a different set of cultural, societal, and historical contexts. I respect your opinion and extend my hospitality, because I, unlike some of the assclowns here actually understand the profound impact these contexts have on how we view the world! I've always wanted to visit Australia, it seems like a beautiful place, and if you ever happen to make your way to the Chicago area, let me know and I'll show you first hand why the Second Amendment is my favorite right to exercise! |
Your beliefs are based on trying to interpret crime data from a nation that none of you understand. The United States is not a homogenous society like Japan, or even a semi homogenous society like Australia and most European nations. The United States has tremendous social, economic, and cultural differences between regions and even between neighboring states. Trying to find causality between high rates of gun ownership and crime, or even high rates of poverty, high rates of gun ownership, and crime in the US as a whole is simply not possible. How else would you explain the fact that one of the poorest regions in the US (the Appalachia region) lies across states that have some of the laxest gun laws in the nation, yet have some of the lowest per capita firearm crimes in the nation? How would you explain the fact that violent crime has universally been reduced in states that have relaxed their controls on the carrying of handguns for self-defence? How would you explain the fact that the cities of Washington DC, Chicago, and NY City are always in the top five of the most crime-ridden locations in the US, yet they also have gun laws so strict that they eclipse the restrictions of many European nations and Australia? There are towns in Illinois, near Chicago, where handgun ownership is illegal, period, no exceptions (well, unless you are a cop). With all due respect, you, and most of the rest of the world, know hardly anything about us and are supremely unqualified to draw inferences about how we live from what little you do know. |
I believe that is know as "dismissing facts and evidence that does not fit one's preconcieved notions". I don't think I would waste time with you on this any more. |
Your efforts would be best suited to be aimed toward your state legislators and representatives. Last time I checked his opinion didn't effect your second amendment rights. |
How do you think I came up with all that? I've voiced my opinion to my state and federal lawmakers plenty of times. Most recently in the Ohio Assembly's override of our former governor's veto of HB 347 which fixes several problems with Ohio's CCW (plain sight in car and press access to CCW records) and rolls back hundreds (if not thousands) of municipal and county gun laws by giving the State Assembly pre-emption over the regulation of firearms. I'm just sick of foreign tools who think we are ignorant about what goes on in the world when they themselves are breathtakingly ignorant about the USA. |
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Hi again guys, First my apologies - I didn't mean to fire everyone up and start an acrimonious debate over gun control. I fully understand that you guys are not supporters of gun control, and I respect your right to hold that opinion (and to vote according to it, and lobby your legislators over it and so on). I certainly don't advocate any form of foreign interference in the US's own lawmaking process. That said, I'm entitled to hold and express my own (reasoned) opinion, and throwing insults isn't going to prevent me from doing so. Marksman, thanks for your support on this. I'm actually hoping to do PhD study in the US in the next few years (possibly at the U. of Chicago) so if I'm ever in town I'd love to take you up on the offer. |
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Hi jh205 Im glad to see you have taken an interest into the sport. Im not sure what state you live in, but its unfortunate you have the restrictions on handgun caliber. Here in NSW we have some of the most heaviest restriction on who can and cant have a licence, but once you eventually get it you have less restriction on what we can own. .40, .45's are all good to go here. Even in Precision bolt actions we are allowed to own .50's. I think even in some US States like California those sought of rifles are not allowed. In self defence we have also had some new legislation in the last few years that allows the use lethal force with a firearm if you are victim to a home invasion, and you have reasonable fear of attack. As long as the use of force was reasonable, you will be immune against civil and criminal liability. Hopefully whatever state your in will start to head in this direction Anyway buddy im here to spread the good news. Australia is starting to wise up to our idiotic laws. We will probably not see stricter laws than what we are seeing now, they will start to loosen up. Did you know that Kevin Rudd, our most likely new Prime Minister is a fellow gun nut? Be rest assured that if he gets put into office, things will change for the better. Maybe sometime in the future we will get our semi autos back, who knows. Oh and another thing to the rest of you guys. Dont be too hard on jh205. He is new to the hobbie and his head is probably still full of all the BS those anti-gun a-holes have put in his head. They are in numbers and have a death grip on this country at the present. He will soon see the light. :) This is also my first post so I would also like to say hi to all you guys, this looks like an awesome place. |
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Gday Boxer, Nice to hear from a fellow aussie. I didn't realise that .40 and .45 were ok in NSW, thought it was only .38 and under. Anyway, I'm in our nation's glorious Capital so if you know the legal details for the ACT post 'em up. I had no idea Rudd was into guns - he doesn't seem the type. Then again, most of my friends dont think I'm the gun type, and they freak when I pull out my Spydercos. As for the semi-autos, I'd love to be able to own AR15s etc., but I just don't accept that civilians should be allowed to own these kind of weapons. Obviously the vast majority of people who would own them would be responsible with them, but it only takes one Martin Bryant to come along and destroy dozens of lives in a matter of seconds. I'm prepared to accept not being allowed to own these weapons in order to prevent that kind of tragic event happening again. |
face this one simple fact: if a criminal wants the gun, he's going to get one whether it's illegal or not. he's a criminal for fuck's sake. Why would you want to willingly limit yourself? gun control only affects the people that obey the law. you do realize this...right? by supporting gun control, all you're doing is making the criminal's jobs safer. i would rather the ability to meet or exceed the criminal's firepower, rather than be stuck cowering in a corner because i'm not allowed to defend myself. |
Welcome aboard Boxer. Work on jh. He needs severe deprogramming. Also, good to hear Australia may be waking up from its bout with stupidity. |
If you think that banning any sort of gun will prevent mass murders from happening, then your concept of a "reasoned" opnion is far different from mine. Like I said, you are refusing to seriously consider considerable evidence that points to serious flaws in your conclusions. In other words, you'll do fine as a PhD. |
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Zack, you're right that if a criminal wants a gun they will almost certainly be able to get one. In Australia, as in most other parts of the world, drug dealers etc. generally either have guns themselves or can quite easily get access to them. But it is not these types of criminals that concern me, because these types of criminals overwhelmingly use violence only against other criminals, usually their drug dealing rivals etc. For these criminals guns are a tool of the trade, and the general public has about as much to fear from them as from construction guys owning hammers or plumbers owning wrenches. The type of person that concerns me (and is the reason I believe semi auto rifles should not be in the hands of civilians and semi auto pistols restricted to licensed shooters who participate in sporting events) is the person who appears outwardly normal, but in fact has serious underlying mental health problems. These are the type of people who can go for years without attracting attention, and then one day something happens and they crack, and use their semi-auto rifles to cause untold destruction to innocent people's lives. When Martin Bryant cracked up, for example, he went and murdered 35 innocent people, including several children. The most recent US example of this that I know about was the slaughter of Amish children, by a guy who had until then lived a normal life and whom no one suspected would do such a thing. There are many, many other such incidents, including school shootings, office shootings, shootings outside courthouses etc. I am not telling Americans what their laws should be - if your democratic and constitutional processes see fit to allow widespread civilian gun ownership, that is perfectly fine by me. All I am saying is that in the country where I live, Australia, I am happy to have the level of gun control which currently exists. |
consider also, if a person is set to killing someone, if he doesn't have a gun, he's going to use a car, a knife, a bomb, a sword, a lead pipe, a stick, a rock. it's the people you need to be worried about, not the tools which they use. |
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Things like knives, lead pipes, cars etc. can of course be used to kill, but they cant be used to kill many people in a very short period of time, in the same way that something purposely designed to kill people (such as an AR15, AK47 etc.) can. To me the issue comes down to a question of the fun and enjoyment of gun owners, vs. the safety of the general public. Ultimately, I believe public safety has to come before the fun and enjoyment of owning semi auto rifles. I know you guys will never agree with me on this, and that doesn't worry me at all. Its simply a matter of honest differences of opinion. I'm not going to say anything more on the issue. |
Do you also blame Ford & Chevy for drunk drivers? You are like every other gun grabber who has shown up in the last 50 years, you ALL blame the item used instead of the nut behind the inaminate object. I also find it ironic that you loathe the AR-15, yet you somehow managed to find a web site with that very name. I personally suggest you return to your normal NAMBLA web sites, sir. You're in WAY over your head in here.  |
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jh205, I can kill a lot more people a lot more efficiently with a 55 gallon barrel full of a mixture of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and diesel fuel than I could with a machine gun. I can buy a barrel, ammonium nitrate fertilizer, and diesel fuel in the US all for legitimate purposes without hardly any government interference, and I'm pretty sure I can do same in Australia. Google Oklahoma City bomber if you are not sure of what I am talking about. What say you now? |
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Wrong JER - sales of ammonium nitrate fertilizer are regulated in Australia, for the same reason that TNT, Powergel, semtex and blasting caps are regulated. If you have a genuine need for large amounts of fertilizer, there's no problem getting it, but if some nutjob goes to buy a large quantity of it the alarm bells go off. Can I ask you this: How would you feel if your child was on a school excursion one day, and some guy with a history of serious mental illness turned up with an AR15 that he had bought at a gunshop that morning and killed your child and a few of their friends, and then committed suicide himself? The perpetrator isn't a greedy criminal or an evil child molester, just a guy with a serious mental problem who should never have had access to AR15 type weapons in the first place. You can't get 'justice', cause the guy's dead and wasn't even living a decent life in the first place. This is a situation which occurs every few weeks in the United States, but it doesn't happen here in Australia because we dont let these kinds of people own semi-auto rifles. |
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wow you're really out of touch if you think that happens every few weeks here. A psychopath is just as likely to get a revolver and do the same thing, and since there will be nobody in Australia to stop him since no one can carry concealed, what then? Since no one can stop him he can do just as much damage with a revolver. |
Really?  Every few weeks?  Like I said in another reply, you really do not have a clue about what goes on in the US. Like most foreigners, you think we are ignorant about the rest of the world and you think you know enough about us to tell us how screwed up we are. The reality is that your ignorance about crime in the US is breathtaking. The more I read what you write, the more I think you are just a Rebecca Peters plant. Do us all a favor and go away. |
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There have been many school shootings in the US. Dozens of office shootings. Many shootings outside of courthouses, including the one on youtube where a number of police officers are killed whilst trying to respond. Here are just a few from the last few years that come to mind: The Beltway snipers, the West Virginia sniper, Columbine high school, Bart Ross, Brian Nichols, Jeff Weise, Dawson college, Mark Barton, Benjamin Smith, Carl Drega. The last spree killing that I know of was in a mall by a guy called Sulejman Talovic, four weeks ago. He killed five people including a fifteen year old girl. How long do you think it will be before the next one. The reality is that you dont really give a shit about these innocent people being killed, but it would be a different story if it was your son or daughter on the receiving end of the loony with the assault rifle. |
Just in case you missed it the first time. |