Posted: 1/2/2011 7:41:33 AM EDT
| With the thumb safety on, the slide cannot be worked. Wouldn't it be safer to unload the chamber with the safety on? Any reason for this design I have missed? |
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Quoted:
One reason is that it prevents the possibility of pushing the slide out of battery when reholstering. even if not considered for this reason (as Augee is correct) it is a good reason not to reinvent the wheel. the only real advantage to a moving slide while the weapon is locked would be for a chamber check within earshot of the BG, before committing to that audible "click" of the safety. |
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Quoted:
Hi, and thanks for the replies. I was not suggesting geting rid of the thumb safety, only wondering why it "needs" to lock the slide. Looks like keeping the slide in battery when reholstering is it? Anything else? It doesn't need to, but I have a Colt Mustang, where the safety does not lock the slide (it's not part of the design), it sucks because without the safety locking the slide it can (and has) go out of battery. |
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Quoted: One reason is that it prevents the possibility of pushing the slide out of battery when reholstering. This is one reason why I like that it locks the slide. But you can have a 1911 customized to where it doesnt lock the slide. They machine the safety down and bevel the bejeezus out of the slide corner. I dont know of anyone actively doing it but Ive seen it done in the past. |
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Quoted:
Hi, and thanks for the replies. I was not suggesting geting rid of the thumb safety, only wondering why it "needs" to lock the slide. Looks like keeping the slide in battery when reholstering is it? Anything else? The only reason it "needs" to lock the slide is because the way the safety detent and the thumb safety was designed. The part of the safety that locks the slide is also the part that engages the detent in the plunger. 
Here you can see one of the Colt Model 1910s without the thumb safety as originally designed. You can see the design of the slide stop detent, as well as what the area looked like before the thumb safety was added. When the Army asked for a thumb safety, it was pretty much... well, just tacked on where there was room. In order to make it all work, there's really nowhere else to put the thumb safety and to make it pivot other than to have it lock the slide. In so many words, though there are plenty of good reasons for the slide to be locked; and while there are some limited situations where being able to keep the safety engaged while working the slide, such as admin loading and unloading, at the end of the day, near as I can tell, it's more of an "accidental" thing, a simple artifact of the design process, and nothing more spectacular than that. The thumb safety "notch" in the slide really reveals how much of an afterthought the thumb safety was, it's a rather inelegant missing "chunk." Nevertheless, it doesn't "need" to lock the slide, either. Volkmann Custom, among other custom shops can make your thumb safety function in such a way that the slide can be racked while the safety is engaged. 
http://www.volkmanncustom.com/other_options.php?option=safety-cut ~Augee |
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Also if you look at previous Browning designs with safeties, many lock the slide. 1903, 1908, etc. all have a thumb safety that locks the slide. So when he tacked it on for the Army, a saftey that ended up locking the slide was something he had done previously and wasn't odd in any way.
As for why Browning safeties locked the slide in the first place, you have to get yourself thinking the way people thought 100+ years ago. Browning's 1903 came out only 30 years after Colt brought out the 1873 Single Action Army. Gun handling was different than it was today. "Press check" didn't exist, formally at least. Carrying hammer-down on a loaded chamber was common. Thumbcocking the hammer to shoot was common. Some people carried it hammer cocked on a loaded chamber, safety OFF. So don't equate how a 1911 is managed today, to how a gun was handled back then. Logically if you had a safety, it should lock the gun up totally. If you didn't need a safety, it shouldn't do anything at all. No inbetween. Remember this is one of the first autos to be sold commercially to the masses. People were used to revolvers and no safeties. They weren't interested in flipping a switch every time they did something with the gun. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Hi, and thanks for the replies. I was not suggesting geting rid of the thumb safety, only wondering why it "needs" to lock the slide. Looks like keeping the slide in battery when reholstering is it? Anything else? The only reason it "needs" to lock the slide is because the way the safety detent and the thumb safety was designed. The part of the safety that locks the slide is also the part that engages the detent in the plunger. http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/48/p_standard/YJL27-Z-F1-H.jpg Here you can see one of the Colt Model 1910s without the thumb safety as originally designed. You can see the design of the slide stop detent, as well as what the area looked like before the thumb safety was added. When the Army asked for a thumb safety, it was pretty much... well, just tacked on where there was room. In order to make it all work, there's really nowhere else to put the thumb safety and to make it pivot other than to have it lock the slide. In so many words, though there are plenty of good reasons for the slide to be locked; and while there are some limited situations where being able to keep the safety engaged while working the slide, such as admin loading and unloading, at the end of the day, near as I can tell, it's more of an "accidental" thing, a simple artifact of the design process, and nothing more spectacular than that. The thumb safety "notch" in the slide really reveals how much of an afterthought the thumb safety was, it's a rather inelegant missing "chunk." Nevertheless, it doesn't "need" to lock the slide, either. Volkmann Custom, among other custom shops can make your thumb safety function in such a way that the slide can be racked while the safety is engaged. http://www.volkmanncustom.com/images/CustomOptions/Safety-Cut-Slide-back.jpg http://www.volkmanncustom.com/other_options.php?option=safety-cut ~Augee That's a nice theory but there remains no reason why the thumb safety could not have been designed to not lock the slide. The pistol was largely intended for the horse cavalry which remained as part of the Army until WWII. Most likely the purpose of the slide lock had something to do with safe use of the pistol by the cavalry troopers, probably preventing unloading or other incident while holstering/jouncing on horseback. You might also notice that the hammer always depresses the grip safety when forced all the way back. This was so the troopers could decock the pistol one-handed. Try this unloaded! I have no idea why that was needed when all they had to do was flip the safety lock up, but maybe some of these requirements were made out of unfamiliarity with the new pistol, which was an incredible departure from the single-action revolver that had been in use in several forms for many years. I can imagine JMB's comments as he dutifully jumped through the Army hoops to make what he probably thought were unnecessary modifications. |
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Quoted: One reason is that it prevents the possibility of pushing the slide out of battery when reholstering. This. It is a key feature that they really missed on, when Colt rolled out the .380 Mustangs and Pocketlite Gov't Models, all (sort of) modeled on the 1911. |