Posted: 3/21/2014 11:52:31 PM EDT
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Looking to buy a 1911 frame from a fellow used. It is just the frame, no internals. Is an FFL needed to ship this?
Probably a stupid questions, but I figure this is the place to ask. |
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Quoted:
You can't ship a pistol to anywhere but an FFL <-----FFL That's not true. Only INTERSTATE shipments must go to an FFL, with the exception of a firearm you ship to yourself. That said, neither UPS or FedEx will accept a firearm addressed to anyone but a licensed dealer, manufacturer or in the case of a curio & relic a licensed collector. This is there own policy, not Federal law. USPS allows licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship handguns and other concealable firearms (such as frames, receivers and AR lowers). Everyone else is limited to the mailing of rifles and shotguns only. OP, frames and receivers ARE firearms. Don't fall for the "label it machine parts" bullshit. |
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If its going intrastate to another resident ups will give you crap about it. i just recently went through this with a AR lower. I walked in and told the guy I needed to ship a package and told him it was a rifle frame and parts, he said not a problem. One of Obama's sons that worked there heard this and immediately ran over and
said you can't ship that. I said I have ups regulations pulled up on my phone and it says I can. The other guy said lets look at the regs. They come back and Obama's son said, see right here it says frames are firearms. I replied I know that but where does it say I can't ship it. Then I pointed to where it said frames and receivers are accepted by ups. At this point he got angry and said, I'm done wit you man, then looks at the other guy and said I'm done with this dude. The other guy points out at the top where it said firearms have to be shipped in accordance with federal laws and to the people listed, dealers ect. I told him that its allowed under state law to ship to another resident and the federal law didn't apply. He responded, I know but we can only ship to a FFL and pointed with his eyes over at obama's son who was still throwing a fit on the other side of the building. This was at a UPS customer service hub. I left and went to a UPS store and figured I would roll my dice. Told the older guy working there where I wanted to ship it and told him what it was when he asked. He said okay shipped it ground shipping with insurance and signature confirmation. I did notice on the business card that the store is owned and operated buy a retired USAF Msgt. Don't know if that had anything to do with it. I was getting ready for a reaction but the old guy didn't really seem to care. I noticed he labeled the description as "Parts" |
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Quoted:
If its going intrastate to another resident ups will give you crap about it. i just recently went through this with a AR lower. I walked in and told the guy I needed to ship a package and told him it was a rifle frame and parts, he said not a problem. One of Obama's sons that worked there heard this and immediately ran over and said you can't ship that. I said I have ups regulations pulled up on my phone and it says I can. The other guy said lets look at the regs. They come back and Obama's son said, see right here it says frames are firearms. I replied I know that but where does it say I can't ship it. Then I pointed to where it said frames and receivers are accepted by ups. At this point he got angry and said, I'm done wit you man, then looks at the other guy and said I'm done with this dude. The other guy points out at the top where it said firearms have to be shipped in accordance with federal laws and to the people listed, dealers ect. I told him that its allowed under state law to ship to another resident and the federal law didn't apply. He responded, I know but we can only ship to a FFL and pointed with his eyes over at obama's son who was still throwing a fit on the other side of the building. This was at a UPS customer service hub. I left and went to a UPS store and figured I would roll my dice. Told the older guy working there where I wanted to ship it and told him what it was when he asked. He said okay shipped it ground shipping with insurance and signature confirmation. I did notice on the business card that the store is owned and operated buy a retired USAF Msgt. Don't know if that had anything to do with it. I was getting ready for a reaction but the old guy didn't really seem to care. I noticed he labeled the description as "Parts" Quoted:
If its going intrastate to another resident ups will give you crap about it. i just recently went through this with a AR lower. I walked in and told the guy I needed to ship a package and told him it was a rifle frame and parts, he said not a problem. One of Obama's sons that worked there heard this and immediately ran over and said you can't ship that. I said I have ups regulations pulled up on my phone and it says I can. The other guy said lets look at the regs. They come back and Obama's son said, see right here it says frames are firearms. I replied I know that but where does it say I can't ship it. Then I pointed to where it said frames and receivers are accepted by ups. At this point he got angry and said, I'm done wit you man, then looks at the other guy and said I'm done with this dude. The other guy points out at the top where it said firearms have to be shipped in accordance with federal laws and to the people listed, dealers ect. I told him that its allowed under state law to ship to another resident and the federal law didn't apply. He responded, I know but we can only ship to a FFL and pointed with his eyes over at obama's son who was still throwing a fit on the other side of the building. This was at a UPS customer service hub. I left and went to a UPS store and figured I would roll my dice. Told the older guy working there where I wanted to ship it and told him what it was when he asked. He said okay shipped it ground shipping with insurance and signature confirmation. I did notice on the business card that the store is owned and operated buy a retired USAF Msgt. Don't know if that had anything to do with it. I was getting ready for a reaction but the old guy didn't really seem to care. I noticed he labeled the description as "Parts" Sorry, but "Obama's son" was correct.....UPS tariff prohibits any shipment from nonlicensee to nonlicensee: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun Shipping Firearms or Ammunition
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper must comply with and must ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package, including, without limitation, age restrictions. Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms). UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms; firearm mufflers and silencers are not accepted for transportation.) UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment. Firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally. UPS Returns® Services are not available for packages containing firearms. Packing and Labeling Requirements for Firearms All firearms must be shipped in new corrugated packaging which meets the UPS Single Wall Box Strength Guidelines. All firearms are to be packaged in accordance with UPS Packaging Guideline Specifications. Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages tendered to UPS for delivery. The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery. The labeling and outer box markings on all firearms shipments should not identify the contents as containing a firearm. Labeling, including the shipper's and consignee's abbreviated names on the shipping label or air shipping document, must be non-descriptive. Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes, UPS On-Call Pickup®, or at locations of The UPS Store® or any third party retailer. When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk. See the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service - United States for information regarding firearm and ammunition shipments. |
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Quoted:
<-----FFL That's not true. Only INTERSTATE shipments must go to an FFL, with the exception of a firearm you ship to yourself. That said, neither UPS or FedEx will accept a firearm addressed to anyone but a licensed dealer, manufacturer or in the case of a curio & relic a licensed collector. This is there own policy, not Federal law. USPS allows licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship handguns and other concealable firearms (such as frames, receivers and AR lowers). Everyone else is limited to the mailing of rifles and shotguns only. OP, frames and receivers ARE firearms. Don't fall for the "label it machine parts" bullshit. Quoted:
Quoted:
You can't ship a pistol to anywhere but an FFL <-----FFL That's not true. Only INTERSTATE shipments must go to an FFL, with the exception of a firearm you ship to yourself. That said, neither UPS or FedEx will accept a firearm addressed to anyone but a licensed dealer, manufacturer or in the case of a curio & relic a licensed collector. This is there own policy, not Federal law. USPS allows licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship handguns and other concealable firearms (such as frames, receivers and AR lowers). Everyone else is limited to the mailing of rifles and shotguns only. OP, frames and receivers ARE firearms. Don't fall for the "label it machine parts" bullshit. Does anyone have a opinion letter from the ATF on shipping AR lowers? The faq on ATF's website doesn't specifically mention AR or rifle lowers as being non-mailable. Nowhere in the USPS regs does it say you can't mail rifle frames or AR lowers. It mentions handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed such as short barreled rifles and shotguns. Rifle frames are kind of a gray area imho. If you can't ship a AR lower because it can be readily converted to the legal definition of a handgun then why can you ship a complete AR. Anybody that could turn a AR lower into a pistol or short barreled rifle could do the same with a complete AR. I think I'm going to write a letter to ATF asking their opinion. There is a lot of contradictory info about lowers and no one can seem to provide a letter from ATF backing their position. |
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Sorry, but "Obama's son" was correct.....UPS tariff prohibits any shipment from nonlicensee to nonlicensee: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun Quoted:
Quoted:
If its going intrastate to another resident ups will give you crap about it. i just recently went through this with a AR lower. I walked in and told the guy I needed to ship a package and told him it was a rifle frame and parts, he said not a problem. One of Obama's sons that worked there heard this and immediately ran over and said you can't ship that. I said I have ups regulations pulled up on my phone and it says I can. The other guy said lets look at the regs. They come back and Obama's son said, see right here it says frames are firearms. I replied I know that but where does it say I can't ship it. Then I pointed to where it said frames and receivers are accepted by ups. At this point he got angry and said, I'm done wit you man, then looks at the other guy and said I'm done with this dude. The other guy points out at the top where it said firearms have to be shipped in accordance with federal laws and to the people listed, dealers ect. I told him that its allowed under state law to ship to another resident and the federal law didn't apply. He responded, I know but we can only ship to a FFL and pointed with his eyes over at obama's son who was still throwing a fit on the other side of the building. This was at a UPS customer service hub. I left and went to a UPS store and figured I would roll my dice. Told the older guy working there where I wanted to ship it and told him what it was when he asked. He said okay shipped it ground shipping with insurance and signature confirmation. I did notice on the business card that the store is owned and operated buy a retired USAF Msgt. Don't know if that had anything to do with it. I was getting ready for a reaction but the old guy didn't really seem to care. I noticed he labeled the description as "Parts" Sorry, but "Obama's son" was correct.....UPS tariff prohibits any shipment from nonlicensee to nonlicensee: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun Shipping Firearms or Ammunition
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper must comply with and must ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package, including, without limitation, age restrictions. Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms). UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms; firearm mufflers and silencers are not accepted for transportation.) UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment. Firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally. UPS Returns® Services are not available for packages containing firearms. Packing and Labeling Requirements for Firearms All firearms must be shipped in new corrugated packaging which meets the UPS Single Wall Box Strength Guidelines. All firearms are to be packaged in accordance with UPS Packaging Guideline Specifications. Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages tendered to UPS for delivery. The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery. The labeling and outer box markings on all firearms shipments should not identify the contents as containing a firearm. Labeling, including the shipper's and consignee's abbreviated names on the shipping label or air shipping document, must be non-descriptive. Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes, UPS On-Call Pickup®, or at locations of The UPS Store® or any third party retailer. When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk. See the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service - United States for information regarding firearm and ammunition shipments. Actually Obama's son was incorrect because he tried to say from the beginning ups can't ship firearms period. |
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Does anyone have a opinion letter from the ATF on shipping AR lowers? The faq on ATF's website doesn't specifically mention AR or rifle lowers as being non-mailable. Nowhere in the USPS regs does it say you can't mail rifle frames or AR lowers. It mentions handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed such as short barreled rifles and shotguns. Rifle frames are kind of a gray area imho. If you can't ship a AR lower because it can be readily converted to the legal definition of a handgun then why can you ship a complete AR. Anybody that could turn a AR lower into a pistol or short barreled rifle could do the same with a complete AR. I think I'm going to write a letter to ATF asking their opinion. There is a lot of contradictory info about lowers and no one can seem to provide a letter from ATF backing their position. Quoted:
Does anyone have a opinion letter from the ATF on shipping AR lowers? The faq on ATF's website doesn't specifically mention AR or rifle lowers as being non-mailable. Nowhere in the USPS regs does it say you can't mail rifle frames or AR lowers. It mentions handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed such as short barreled rifles and shotguns. Rifle frames are kind of a gray area imho. If you can't ship a AR lower because it can be readily converted to the legal definition of a handgun then why can you ship a complete AR. Anybody that could turn a AR lower into a pistol or short barreled rifle could do the same with a complete AR. I think I'm going to write a letter to ATF asking their opinion. There is a lot of contradictory info about lowers and no one can seem to provide a letter from ATF backing their position. ATF doesn't regulate what types of firearms are mailable, that's the domain of USPS. You can write ATF and you'll get the same answer I did. 
USPS regs are clear if you understand how they classify firearms.......if the firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person" USPS considers it the same as a handgun http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527 12.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
Firearms 12.1.1 Definitions The terms used in this standard are defined as follows: a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms described under 12.1.1c and 12.1.1d). b. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. c. Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 12.1.1a, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled. d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following: a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h. b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6. c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult signature service under 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations. d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C. e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district. |
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ATF doesn't regulate what types of firearms are mailable, that's the domain of USPS. You can write ATF and you'll get the same answer I did.
USPS regs are clear if you understand how they classify firearms.......if the firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person" USPS considers it the same as a handgun http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527 Quoted:
Quoted:
Does anyone have a opinion letter from the ATF on shipping AR lowers? The faq on ATF's website doesn't specifically mention AR or rifle lowers as being non-mailable. Nowhere in the USPS regs does it say you can't mail rifle frames or AR lowers. It mentions handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed such as short barreled rifles and shotguns. Rifle frames are kind of a gray area imho. If you can't ship a AR lower because it can be readily converted to the legal definition of a handgun then why can you ship a complete AR. Anybody that could turn a AR lower into a pistol or short barreled rifle could do the same with a complete AR. I think I'm going to write a letter to ATF asking their opinion. There is a lot of contradictory info about lowers and no one can seem to provide a letter from ATF backing their position. ATF doesn't regulate what types of firearms are mailable, that's the domain of USPS. You can write ATF and you'll get the same answer I did.
USPS regs are clear if you understand how they classify firearms.......if the firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person" USPS considers it the same as a handgun http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527 12.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
Firearms 12.1.1 Definitions The terms used in this standard are defined as follows: a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms described under 12.1.1c and 12.1.1d). b. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. c. Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 12.1.1a, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled. d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following: a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h. b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6. c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult signature service under 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations. d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C. e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district. How does a completed AR rifle lower or any rifle receiver meet the definition of a handgun under the definition and regulations you just posted? Usps differentiates between frames and receivers and other firearms capable of being concealed with the definitions you posted. Also from the post office website. "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/" If they are saying they can't give an opinion and the ATF says they can't then how do we know for sure. Sounds like ATF needs to give people some answers. |
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Quoted:
<-----FFL That's not true. Only INTERSTATE shipments must go to an FFL, with the exception of a firearm you ship to yourself. That said, neither UPS or FedEx will accept a firearm addressed to anyone but a licensed dealer, manufacturer or in the case of a curio & relic a licensed collector. This is there own policy, not Federal law. USPS allows licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship handguns and other concealable firearms (such as frames, receivers and AR lowers). Everyone else is limited to the mailing of rifles and shotguns only. OP, frames and receivers ARE firearms. Don't fall for the "label it machine parts" bullshit. Quoted:
Quoted:
You can't ship a pistol to anywhere but an FFL <-----FFL That's not true. Only INTERSTATE shipments must go to an FFL, with the exception of a firearm you ship to yourself. That said, neither UPS or FedEx will accept a firearm addressed to anyone but a licensed dealer, manufacturer or in the case of a curio & relic a licensed collector. This is there own policy, not Federal law. USPS allows licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship handguns and other concealable firearms (such as frames, receivers and AR lowers). Everyone else is limited to the mailing of rifles and shotguns only. OP, frames and receivers ARE firearms. Don't fall for the "label it machine parts" bullshit. unless your'e like my state where you need a transfer for any handgun purchase person to person or dealer. |
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How does a completed AR rifle lower or any rifle receiver meet the definition of a handgun under the definition and regulations you just posted? Quoted:
How does a completed AR rifle lower or any rifle receiver meet the definition of a handgun under the definition and regulations you just posted? I didn't say they did. AR lowers don't meet the definition of "handgun", USPS defines it as a firearm under 12.1.1 a & b a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms described under 12.1.1c and 12.1.1d).
b. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Usps differentiates between frames and receivers and other firearms capable of being concealed with the definitions you posted. I know. If you read 12.1.2 Handguns you'll see that it restricts handguns AND other firearms capable of being concealed on the person: 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable.......... Since USPS puts frames and receivers in the category of other firearms and they are capable of being concealed on the person......they are only mailable under the same restrictions as Handguns. Also from the post office website. "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/" If they are saying they can't give an opinion and the ATF says they can't then how do we know for sure. Sounds like ATF needs to give people some answers. You're making this harder than it is. ATF regulates firearms. USPS regulates the mail. |
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Since USPS puts frames and receivers in the category of other firearms and they are capable of being concealed on the person......they are only mailable under the same restrictions as Handguns. They're not in the same category based on what you posted. Usps gave the definition of a firearm. Then gave a definition for "frames", then a definition for "handguns" and then a definition for "other firearms capable of being concealed." You keep saying they are in the same category but usps makes no mention of frames when it says, handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed are not mailable. You are saying because you can conceal a frame it can't be shipped but the definition for other firearms capable of being concealed doesn't say anything about frames. |
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They're not in the same category based on what you posted. Quoted:
Since USPS puts frames and receivers in the category of other firearms and they are capable of being concealed on the person......they are only mailable under the same restrictions as Handguns. They're not in the same category based on what you posted. Ummmmm............yeah they are. Reread. You are saying because you can conceal a frame it can't be shipped but the definition for other firearms capable of being concealed doesn't say anything about frames. Oh good Lord. I can't keep posting the same shit and make you understand. USPS considers a frame or receiver as a fucking firearm. Since you can conceal a frame or receiver on your person it's not fucking mailable except as noted in their regs. |
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Ummmmm............yeah they are. Reread. Oh good Lord. I can't keep posting the same shit and make you understand. USPS considers a frame or receiver as a fucking firearm. Since you can conceal a frame or receiver on your person it's not fucking mailable except as noted in their regs. Quoted:
Quoted:
Since USPS puts frames and receivers in the category of other firearms and they are capable of being concealed on the person......they are only mailable under the same restrictions as Handguns. They're not in the same category based on what you posted. Ummmmm............yeah they are. Reread. You are saying because you can conceal a frame it can't be shipped but the definition for other firearms capable of being concealed doesn't say anything about frames. Oh good Lord. I can't keep posting the same shit and make you understand. USPS considers a frame or receiver as a fucking firearm. Since you can conceal a frame or receiver on your person it's not fucking mailable except as noted in their regs. I could conceal a M4 with a 16" barrel under a large trench coat. Does that mean it can't be shipped? d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. Where does it say anything about frames? |
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I could conceal a M4 with a 16" barrel under a large trench coat. Does that mean it can't be shipped? Quoted:
I could conceal a M4 with a 16" barrel under a large trench coat. Does that mean it can't be shipped? Well.................being that an M4 with a 16" barrel is a RIFLE it can be shipped by anyone. Where does it say anything about frames? Lets see............this has been posted two or three times by me, you've quoted it as many...... have you fucking read it? If not here it is again: Firearms
12.1.1 Definitions The terms used in this standard are defined as follows: a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms described under 12.1.1c and 12.1.1d). |
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Quoted:
Well.................being that an M4 with a 16" barrel is a RIFLE it can be shipped by anyone. Lets see............this has been posted two or three times by me, you've quoted it as many...... have you fucking read it? If not here it is again: Quoted:
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I could conceal a M4 with a 16" barrel under a large trench coat. Does that mean it can't be shipped? Well.................being that an M4 with a 16" barrel is a RIFLE it can be shipped by anyone. Where does it say anything about frames? Lets see............this has been posted two or three times by me, you've quoted it as many...... have you fucking read it? If not here it is again: Firearms
12.1.1 Definitions The terms used in this standard are defined as follows: a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms described under 12.1.1c and 12.1.1d). I know that frames and receivers are considered firearms. I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun. But its not really clear about rifle frames. The definition you posted is just a general definition of what a firearms is. It still doesn't explicitly mention rifle frames as being nonmailable. |
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I know that frames and receivers are considered firearms. I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun. Quoted:
I know that frames and receivers are considered firearms. I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun. Well...........you're wrong on that one as well. (read the Form 4473) ATF regulations define a firearm frame or receiver as an "Other Firearm"............so even if the frame may only be built into a long gun or handgun, it is still considered an Other Firearm until built. But its not really clear about rifle frames. The definition you posted is just a general definition of what a firearms is. It still doesn't explicitly mention rifle frames as being nonmailable. Bullshit. You just continue to ignore plain English: 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable.......... If you don't think an AR receiver or a firearm frame can be concealed on the person............then by all means go ahead and ship the fucking thing. If you get caught its a Federal crime and you'll never own a gun again. I'm finished playing with the '13er troll. 
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Well...........you're wrong on that one as well. (read the Form 4473) ATF regulations define a firearm frame or receiver as an "Other Firearm"............so even if the frame may only be built into a long gun or handgun, it is still considered an Other Firearm until built. Bullshit. You just continue to ignore plain English: If you don't think an AR receiver or a firearm frame can be concealed on the person............then by all means go ahead and ship the fucking thing. If you get caught its a Federal crime and you'll never own a gun again. I'm finished playing with the '13er troll.
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I know that frames and receivers are considered firearms. I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun. Well...........you're wrong on that one as well. (read the Form 4473) ATF regulations define a firearm frame or receiver as an "Other Firearm"............so even if the frame may only be built into a long gun or handgun, it is still considered an Other Firearm until built. But its not really clear about rifle frames. The definition you posted is just a general definition of what a firearms is. It still doesn't explicitly mention rifle frames as being nonmailable. Bullshit. You just continue to ignore plain English: 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable.......... If you don't think an AR receiver or a firearm frame can be concealed on the person............then by all means go ahead and ship the fucking thing. If you get caught its a Federal crime and you'll never own a gun again. I'm finished playing with the '13er troll.
Well now you're contradicting yourself. A few posts back you said USPS controls the shipping regulations and how they define "other firearms" and not the ATF. So based on your previous post. The ATF regulation on the 4473 that defines a frame as an "other firearm" isn't applicable in this situation. Because according to you, USPS controls what can and cannot be shipped. |
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Well now you're contradicting yourself. A few posts back you said USPS controls the shipping regulations and how they define "other firearms" and not the ATF. So based on your previous post. The ATF regulation on the 4473 that defines a frame as an "other firearm" isn't applicable in this situation. Because according to you, USPS controls what can and cannot be shipped. Quoted:
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I know that frames and receivers are considered firearms. I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun. Well...........you're wrong on that one as well. (read the Form 4473) ATF regulations define a firearm frame or receiver as an "Other Firearm"............so even if the frame may only be built into a long gun or handgun, it is still considered an Other Firearm until built. But its not really clear about rifle frames. The definition you posted is just a general definition of what a firearms is. It still doesn't explicitly mention rifle frames as being nonmailable. Bullshit. You just continue to ignore plain English: 12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable.......... If you don't think an AR receiver or a firearm frame can be concealed on the person............then by all means go ahead and ship the fucking thing. If you get caught its a Federal crime and you'll never own a gun again. I'm finished playing with the '13er troll.
Well now you're contradicting yourself. A few posts back you said USPS controls the shipping regulations and how they define "other firearms" and not the ATF. So based on your previous post. The ATF regulation on the 4473 that defines a frame as an "other firearm" isn't applicable in this situation. Because according to you, USPS controls what can and cannot be shipped. See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow. I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? |
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See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow.
I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. |
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I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. Quoted:
See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow.
I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. Wrong. Whether it was on a rifle is immaterial. it is a frame or receiver. Per Federal law, rifles have both shoulder stock and a barrel attached. You don't know your gun law very well. I'm an FFL, when I receive an AR lower (new or used) it is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473..........that's required by ATF. I cannot legally record it as "Long Gun" because...........it's not. What part of "concealable" do you not get? 
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Wrong. Whether it was on a rifle is immaterial. it is a frame or receiver. Per Federal law, rifles have both shoulder stock and a barrel attached. You don't know your gun law very well. I'm an FFL, when I receive an AR lower (new or used) it is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473..........that's required by ATF. I cannot legally record it as "Long Gun" because...........it's not. What part of "concealable" do you not get?
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See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow.
I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. Wrong. Whether it was on a rifle is immaterial. it is a frame or receiver. Per Federal law, rifles have both shoulder stock and a barrel attached. You don't know your gun law very well. I'm an FFL, when I receive an AR lower (new or used) it is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473..........that's required by ATF. I cannot legally record it as "Long Gun" because...........it's not. What part of "concealable" do you not get?
I get that the USPS definition of " other firearms capable of being concealed" doesn't say anything about lowers. It specifically mentions SBR's and short barrel shotguns though. |
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I get that the USPS definition of " other firearms capable of being concealed" doesn't say anything about lowers. It specifically mentions SBR's and short barrel shotguns though. Quoted:
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See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow.
I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. Wrong. Whether it was on a rifle is immaterial. it is a frame or receiver. Per Federal law, rifles have both shoulder stock and a barrel attached. You don't know your gun law very well. I'm an FFL, when I receive an AR lower (new or used) it is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473..........that's required by ATF. I cannot legally record it as "Long Gun" because...........it's not. What part of "concealable" do you not get?
I get that the USPS definition of " other firearms capable of being concealed" doesn't say anything about lowers. It specifically mentions SBR's and short barrel shotguns though. No you don't get it..........lowers are FIREARMS.......they are capable of being concealed on the person.........not mailable except by a licensee. If you are hung up on the USPS definitions you are ignoring a couple of important facts: "Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles." Note the text NOT LIMITED TO ............that's because SBR's, SBS's, suppressors, are listed as "Other Firearm" on the 4473...........just like frames and receivers are. ATF and the USPS have a clue how the other agency's regs are written. In their firearms section, why do you think USPS only mentions rifles and shotguns as mailable by anyone, but doesn't mention any other type of firearm as mailable by anyone? 
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No you don't get it..........lowers are FIREARMS.......they are capable of being concealed on the person.........not mailable except by a licensee. If you are hung up on the USPS definitions you are ignoring a couple of important facts: "Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles." Note the text NOT LIMITED TO ............that's because SBR's, SBS's, suppressors, are listed as "Other Firearm" on the 4473...........just like frames and receivers are. ATF and the USPS have a clue how the other agency's regs are written. In their firearms section, why do you think USPS only mentions rifles and shotguns as mailable by anyone, but doesn't mention any other type of firearm as mailable by anyone?
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See, this is why Arfcommers make fun of '13ers................the derp just continues to grow and grow.
I didn't contradict myself, I DID correct you on your statement: "I know you can't ship a handgun frame via USPS because its legally considered a handgun..." A handgun frame IS NOT a handgun under ATF regulations. A handgun frame is considered the same as a handgun by USPS for the purposes of mailing. So c'mon smart guy............what's your next lame ass argument? I was never talking about handgun frames. I was referring to AR lowers that came from a completed rifle or stripped lowers that were built into a rifle lower. ETA: A complete lower that came off a factory rifle should be mailable since it is legally a rifle on a 4473. Just because you take the upper off doesn't change the fact that it is marked as a rifle on a 4473 and is legally considered a rifle. Wrong. Whether it was on a rifle is immaterial. it is a frame or receiver. Per Federal law, rifles have both shoulder stock and a barrel attached. You don't know your gun law very well. I'm an FFL, when I receive an AR lower (new or used) it is recorded as an "Other Firearm" on the 4473..........that's required by ATF. I cannot legally record it as "Long Gun" because...........it's not. What part of "concealable" do you not get?
I get that the USPS definition of " other firearms capable of being concealed" doesn't say anything about lowers. It specifically mentions SBR's and short barrel shotguns though. No you don't get it..........lowers are FIREARMS.......they are capable of being concealed on the person.........not mailable except by a licensee. If you are hung up on the USPS definitions you are ignoring a couple of important facts: "Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles." Note the text NOT LIMITED TO ............that's because SBR's, SBS's, suppressors, are listed as "Other Firearm" on the 4473...........just like frames and receivers are. ATF and the USPS have a clue how the other agency's regs are written. In their firearms section, why do you think USPS only mentions rifles and shotguns as mailable by anyone, but doesn't mention any other type of firearm as mailable by anyone?
"Not limited to" is a pretty broad term open for interpretation. You've already stated that ATF told you they have no involvement in usps regulations. You've stated that whats in the USPS regulations are their rules for shipping and not ATF. So what the 4473 defines as "Other" isn't necessarily what the USPS definition of "other" firearms is. Do you have proof from either USPS or ATF that all items categorized as "other" on a 4473 meet the USPS definition of "other firearms capable of being concealed"? |
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"Not limited to" is a pretty broad term open for interpretation. You've already stated that ATF told you they have no involvement in usps regulations. You've stated that whats in the USPS regulations are their rules for shipping and not ATF. So what the 4473 defines as "Other" isn't necessarily what the USPS definition of "other" firearms is. Do you have proof from either USPS or ATF that all items categorized as "other" on a 4473 meet the USPS definition of "other firearms capable of being concealed"? You won't be satisfied with any answer anyone gives. Fucking '13er's
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You won't be satisfied with any answer anyone gives. Fucking '13er's Quoted:
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"Not limited to" is a pretty broad term open for interpretation. You've already stated that ATF told you they have no involvement in usps regulations. You've stated that whats in the USPS regulations are their rules for shipping and not ATF. So what the 4473 defines as "Other" isn't necessarily what the USPS definition of "other" firearms is. Do you have proof from either USPS or ATF that all items categorized as "other" on a 4473 meet the USPS definition of "other firearms capable of being concealed"? You won't be satisfied with any answer anyone gives. Fucking '13er's I ask for verifiable proof that your position is right and you resort to petty name calling attempts. Real mature bro. I stand by my position that its a grey area that needs clarification from either USPS or ATF.
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