[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Speed or accuracy?? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/18/2008 8:02:03 PM EDT
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"Speed is important, but accuracy is everything." This quote is usually attributed to Wyatt Earp, but I don't know if that is true or not. Anyway, I had a guy say this to me at a range the other day. Several others and myself were practicing drawing and shooting pairs of double taps at 10 yds. My groups were about 7-8 in and the guy next to me you could cover his with a baseball. However, I was re-holstering before he got off his third shot. Now I am by no means fast, but this guy was really slow. Anyway after a few rounds, he commented that I need to work on my groups. I commented he needed to get his gun out of the holster faster. That is when he hit me with the quote. Now I realize speed if nothing if you miss, but a good shooter who is slow will lose to an average shooter who is fast every time. So which is more important, speed or accuracy? |
| I took the tactical handgun course at thunder ranch a few years ago. I was a bit slower than the rest of the line, but my groups were noticeably tighter. I'm a bit of a snob about group size, so that mattered to me. Then, Clint himself came over, put his arm around my shoulder, and asked me who the f%$# cares about group size when we're only talking about a difference of 1 to 3 inches. Granted, at some point, group size does matter ( and I think 7 inches is getting a bit large). However, I think the correct statement should be " fast and accurate enough to get the job done wins the fight". People get way too obsessed about a half inch at 25 yards - If it's a competition, that's fine. But, if it's a gunfight, I definitely want to be the one to shoot 1st - If there's a three inch gap between my double tap and I"m still standing, I'm a happy man!! |
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Well...I may be the odd man out, but I prefer good hits as fast as I can get them. I really don't care about shooting 3" groups, I care about hitting the vitals RFN. As long as I can do that, I'm accurate enough. If I can't, I need to slow down. I think this is sometimes referred to as "practical accuracy". |
| If you can't make hits, speed is of little use. If you can make the hits, then hit as fast as you can. First, however, you have to understand and master the basics...sight alignment and trigger control...then you do it faster. The best 'practical' shooters will work on both. |
That was part of the drill. When everyone was reholstered the RO would shout "gun" again and everyone would start shooting. It was very speed oriented. |
"hits in the "A zone" (or what ever) matter, not group size and both of you need to continue to practice. At 5 yds, your 8" groups are fine, but can you adjust to slow down and make those same groups at 25? or 50? or speed up and make the same "groups" faster at 3 yds? Try one (or more) targets at 5 yds and another at 25 and hit both in the A zone as quickly as possible during the same string. Varying the distance to the targets forces your mind to have to adjust the gas peddle during a string. I have found that is also is important to see my front sight lift on my shots in order to shoot quickly AND accurately. A good rule of thumb is to aim for 90%-95% hits and then vary the distances to the targets: if you don't miss once in a while, you can go faster; if you miss more than that, you need to slow down. Get a timer and a notebook and keep track. |
I've never heard of a holstering contest. 
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Fast into the fight; slow out of the fight. 
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Your need for speed and accuracy will be determined by the size of the target (ie. distance). As the target gets smaller and harder to hit, you must have the ability to shoot accurately or all of the speed in the world will not help you get good hits. The thing is that accuracy never gets easier under speed or stress, it only deteriorates. In a real gunfight your 8" groups are not going to magicaly shrink to 4", they will grow to 10, 15 or 20. So to be able to reliably shoot 6" or 8" groups under high stress, you should be shooting 3" or 4" groups at speed during practice. It sounds like both you and the other shooter have areas that need improvement. You need to tighten your groups up, 8" at 10 yards is not that good no mater how fast. The other shooter needs to work on his speed. Both speed and accuracy are needed but accuracy is far more important. I think it was a Bill Jordan quote that went, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final." Gringop |
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i always teach people that speed will come. when you are learning a new technique or training start with singles. from the holster bang smooth as possibble make sure you are practicig perfect and not rushing it. after your muscle memory is set you will get faster and you can push yourself to go faster. then i start adding in modes of fire, fts, controlled pairs, and hammers depending on the range. one skill should build on the other. don't forget that there are other imporant aspects to the draw more than just putting rds on the target, which is ultimatly the most important to stop the threat but also things like tac reloads, ready postions, as well as a 361 degree threat scan is important. moving off the line of the bg's sight is also very important and even if you aren't the fastest this will give you that extra time to draw and put rds on target and keep you from getting dead. the moral here is start slow, and build upon each skill until they are mastered and then add movement, modes of fire, etc. |
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Someone is going to call me out on this, but I believe it was either Clint Smith or Mas Ayoob, who pretty much said screw practicing double taps, you'll end up in a fight where a double tap doesn't get the job done and you've already lowered your gun... as far as speed vs accuracy, I figure, keep it in the kill zone, and do it as fast as possible. One shot to the forehead is better than 8 shots around the head. |
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Everyone will say accuracy first speed second, but if you can bust out a .9 second or under from the holster and get a torso hit, its alot better then a 2 or more second center hit. At least you have given them something to think about then continue with a 5 round string but while doing so dial in and get the killing hits in the vitals. Of course if you can bust out .9-1.5 from the holster with great hits from the start then you are way better off than just ripping off a first weak hit that requires multiple follow ups. Some peolpe never get faster because they are afraid to accept some weak hits in training and push on the speed. You never know until you push past your comfort zone. |
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Two schools of thought and both have their place. Accuraccy at the cost of speed = Headshot at sometime in the opening volley and this makes sence to me. Speed at the cost of bullet placement = Compromise is the key with good a/b zone hits fast. Ive seen alot of super fast misses. All depends your level of skill. |
SLOW HITS WILL GET YOU KILLED. -if the other guy's hits are faster. Tried IPSC/USPSA? - you don't believe in that? OK, Tried IDPA? Don't believe in that either? OK, Ever been to a training session or used a timer? No? Then good luck to you in a gunfight (you will NEED the luck). |
| Shoot some IPSC matches. Yes, I know they don't teach tactics, but they are the best forum for testing your ability to get fast and accurate hits at varying distances and under varying conditions. Oh, and they put you under stress you can never simulate in normal range sessions. Whenever I hear people explain why they don't want to shoot IPSC matches, all I hear is "blah blah blah - I'm scared of finding out how bad I am". |
To everything, turn turn turn, There is a season, turn turn turn, A time to use every tactic, under heaven. A time to shoot fast A time to shoot slow A time so use sights A time to just point..... I have yet to be in a training course and hear the instructors hollering at students to hurry up and shoot faster. Quite the opposite, I'm afraid....especially when the students were going so fast that they managed to shoot no-shoot targets. Lack of speed isn't the problem I see in most shooters. Lack of accuracy, on the other hand.... The dirty little secret here is that someone who can properly manipulate the trigger of their weapon will hit what they intend to hit whether they are shooting slow or fast, near or far, on the move or standing still, and most of the "I HAVE TO SHOOT REALLY FAST!!!" guys are just slapping the trigger and making deplorable shots. Like my buddy NCPatrolAR said, speed has it's place....but most of the guys who are on about it all the time have their priorities WAAAAY out of whack. |
....and it was an extremely BAD IDEA. Things people do on the range turn into things people do in gunfights....and guess what? There's no prize for being the first guy back in the holster. |
I have, a .mil shoot-and-move course... No no-shoot targets though... |
Accuracy is great if you are still around to make the shot. While "accuracy is everything" supposedly, it is really hard to shoot well after your less skilled opponent has popped you twice in the torso, before you get your oh-so perfect "accuracy is everything" shot off. For my money, every round I land on target increases my chance of survival by decreasing the opposition's ability to do harm to me. Along the lines of the Wyatt Earp saying, there are several such gun sayings that sound really cool, are often said by gun gurus, and are really stupid if you think about them. It has been danced around here but was often said at Thunder Ranch, "Fast is slow and smooth is fast." If you break that into a math formula...If fast=slow and smoth =fast then smooth=slow. All of a sudden, the idea doesn't work so well. The same goes for the Thunder Ranchism of 2 guns is 1 and 1 gun is none. That always sounded stupid to me. How about "You can't miss fast enough to win"? Sure you can. Happens all the time. People often give up or turn tail and flee when confronted with a battle even when not having even been hit once. I would not count on shots that miss to be victorious, but the fact remains that you most certainly can miss fast enough to win a fight. How about "action always beats reaction." That is another crock. Action only always beats reaction if you have equal entities performing equal tasks. If action always beats reaction, then you should be able to draw your ankle carried snubby and fire on me before I ever have a chance to pull the trigger on my already drawn and aimed gun and shoot you. Fighters would not be able to parry incoming blows. So you see, action doesn't always beat reaction when the tasks being performed are not performed within comparable parameters. This sort of blasts the whole OODA fruitloop idea as well. I am continually amazed by the mindless chanting mantras people spew out, like they are some sort of absolutist fact when they are nothing more than cutesy sound bites that may have some truth to them, but are not in and of themselves the final answer to anything and certainly not universal. Few fights are won based on cutesy, half-truth sayings. I will say this, while we put a huge amount of emphasis on shooting the other guy, my goal is to not get shot/stabbed/otherwise harmed. It may be that I do that by employing lethal force or via use of cover, flight, or what have you. It is about surviving intact, for me anyway. |
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In the military when I was teaching my new shooters I would always preach fundamentals. Get it done right, over and over, and over again. Once you do it right thousands of times the speed comes naturally. It's really nice to watch a shooter progress through taking 10sec to properly do all the fundamentals and squeeze off an acurate shot; then 1mo later after thousands of rounds he's drawing and putting a magazine down range accurately in the same time frame. I know we don't all have the ability to sit at the range for 6hr a day, every day, for weeks, getting these things down. But that doesn't mean the same rules don't apply...you just move along at a slower pace. Concentrate, no CONCENTRATE on the fundementals, they become muscle memory and become smooth actions that flow together to make your desired outcome quicker and quicker as you progress. |
I've had the opportunity to speak with a number of folks who have been forced to use lethal force to defend themselves, others, or their nation. Speed was never much of a worry for them. The simple reality is that if someone is trying to kill you, you WILL be moving fast...that's a natural human reaction. You are most likely to get the weapon up/out of the holster quickly, point it at the threat, and pull the trigger as fast as you can. The point of all that training people go through is to teach people how to slow down just that 1/4 of a second that's necessary to make a GOOD, ACCURATE SHOT with those trigger pulls. You speak as if people are taking 10 minutes to line up a shot. That's silly.
 Your math sucks. People who are trying to move FAST often move in an inefficient manner. To demonstrate this instructors will often put somebody ON AN ELECTRONIC TIMER and will have someone try to do something like make a shot out of the holster as fast as they can, and then repeat the same thing focusing on making the movements properly rather than speed.... And you know what? Typically the run where people focused on getting it RIGHT as opposed to doing it FAST turns out to be FASTER.
It wouldn't if you ever had a weapon sh*t the bed on you when you needed it. There's a reason why the HSLD types in the military and in LE who do CQB for a living carry a handgun on their hip/thigh in addition to the carbine/SMG in their hands, and it ain't because they like having the extra weight.
That's true....but where do all those missed shots go? As Ken Hackathorn is fond of saying "Every bullet fired in the United States has a lawyer attached to it." While suppressive fire may have some applications in military actions and even in some VERY extreme LE situations, there's not much use for it in the majority of situations. ...and you know what? It doesn't take any training to get somebody to fling bullets at a threat as fast as they can manipulate the trigger. They'll do that naturally. It takes training to teach them how to manage the stress of the situation and get HITS on the threat so that the coroner doesn't end up digging their bullets out of some innocent who was in the background.
Being alive at the end of the engagement is certainly a good thing...but you won't have "won" if you are going to prison for killing a kid who was walking down the street when you missed the guy trying to knife you.
Where are you getting this stuff? The point of teaching someone that "action beats reaction" is to communicate the message that it takes about 1/4 of a second for your brain to figure out that something is happening and to make the decision to do something about it. It takes about another 1/4 of a second for you to actually perform the action (like beginning to draw your weapon) If you're trying to draw a J frame from an ankle holster to kill somebody who has the red dot of their carbine on your chest and is looking for ANY sign of hostility from you to put two center mass, ya, you are probably f**ked. That does not, however, invalidate the teaching or the usefulness of knowing that it takes time for you to process information and initiate action.
That's just silly. The ODA loop is a sound concept. What you are arguing is that if it doesn't answer the problem in EVERY situation, no matter how outlandish, that it's garbage. That's about as reasonable as saying that because planes can crash that they are useless. The object of the ODA loop teaching is to get someone to realize that there is a lag time between when you notice an action and begin to do something about that action. That's IT. It's not presented as being a way to hypnotize a bad guy into standing there and drooling on his shoes while you draw your weapon and kill him, dude. 
"Speed is fine. Accuracy is final." -- Larry Vickers Mr. Vickers was in a few fights. His former unit has been in a few fights too. Thus I am forced to wonder....is it a cutesy saying, or is it an attempt to sum up a lot of experience and training in a way that makes an impact and teaches an important lesson?
Yes, it's about surviving intact.... ...and not killing anyone who doesn't need to be killed, and not maiming anyone who doesn't need to be maimed, and not wounding anyone who doesn't need to be wounded. I'll paraphrase another "cutesy" saying from another instructor: "The best backstop in the real world is the scumbag who is trying to kill you. Put your bullets there." Another "cutesy" gem from Ken Hackathorn. The REALITY is that when you fire bullets at a threat, they are going to hit something. Given that in a real life situation you are likely to find yourself in an environment that is absolutely chock full of people/things that don't need to be hit, and given that there is no better way to stop the hostile actions of a determined attacker than to punch holes in his vital organs, it would seem eminently sensible to focus intensely on putting bullets in the bad guy. Speed is fine. It isn't feasible to take 20 minutes to line up a shot on a mugger who is seven yards away and closing on you with a weapon. You don't have that kind of time. You *DO*, however, have enough time to draw your weapon, get some sort of index (even if it's just a "flash" sight picture) and exercise PROPER TRIGGER CONTROL to put bullets in him. See, the dirty little secret of accuracy is PROPER TRIGGER CONTROL. You can have a sucky grip, a horrible stance, and not even be able to see the sights...but if you TAKE THE TIME to exercise proper trigger control you'll most likely make a hit. You can have the world's fastest draw, the world's most solid stance, and the absolute perfect sight picture, but if you don't TAKE THE TIME to exercise proper trigger control and you instead gank the trigger like a bodybuilder trying to work a rusty water pump, you aren't going to hit sh*t. Going fast should NEVER be more important than doing it RIGHT. I'm in training courses with guys all the time who are trying to go fast and end up screwing the pooch. They shoot no-shoots and hostages. They miss threats by ganking the trigger. They fumble reloads. They trip and fall all over the place in shoothouses. ...meanwhile the guys who have learned to TAKE THE TIME to focus on doing things RIGHT instead of FAST make solid hits, don't kill no-shoots, keep their footing, reload efficiently, and generally get things done in an efficient and effective manner. As I said earlier, in a real life bad situation you are going to be moving fast anyway. That's your natural instinct, but if you've taken the time to drill the RIGHT way to do things over and over and over and over and over and over again you'll default to your level of training and you'll be doing it RIGHT AND FAST at the same time. This is why good trainers tell people to slow the hell down and do things RIGHT in training and emphasize accuracy far more than speed. |
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Actually John, the math is quite good and is a classic example of transitive equality in mathematics. The concepts of math are not mine, but I appreciate you saying they are mine because they don't suck at all. In fact, they are part of the foundation on which real number math is based. Real number math is a foundation upon which the calculation of your paycheck is based. It is a very simple and very well understood and applied concept. I am glad you brought up Ken Hackathorn. I have had instruction from Ken. He is the instructor that would have students stand by targets while other students shot at the targets. He also teaches students to hold their guns in front of their faces during reloads. He does teach some good stuff, but some of it is pretty stupid. I think your quotes are a bit after the fact. The speed/accuracy quote isn't orignal to Vickers and the lawyer attached to every bullet isn't original to Hackathorn. Thanks for playing. 
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So what does he teach that is stupid and what is good? |
Bullsh*t. That's NOT what the "snake drill" is.
I never claimed that they were. Larry Vickers didn't invent the concept of accuracy as a primary focus of weapons training, just like he didn't invent the ball and dummy drill. Nevertheless he teaches it, does so effectively, and the philosophy he teaches seems to work pretty darn good in the real world. Ditto Hackathorn. |