[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Which is more lethal? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/11/2011 2:53:00 PM EDT
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In general, a quality 9mm hollow point or .45 FMJ? I would think the 9mm, but a friend says otherwise. What say the hive?
Same shot placement, distance, same person, animal, etc. |
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There are still too many variable in your cage match.
What weight 9mm vs what weight .45? What velocity? All I can say is the .45 will leave a bigger hole without expanding than the 9mm will even at full expansion. I think the .45 still beats the 9mm hollowpoint but as we all know shot placement is key. I have no scientific data to give you but just based on bullet energy transfer and sheer diameter I'd say the .45. |
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There are still too many variable in your cage match. What weight 9mm vs what weight .45? What velocity? All I can say is the .45 will leave a bigger hole without expanding than the 9mm will even at full expansion. I think the .45 still beats the 9mm hollowpoint but as we all know shot placement is key. I have no scientific data to give you but just based on bullet energy transfer and sheer diameter I'd say the .45. Damn. Good points I guess. Thanks. |
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Lethality is not really an issue. The concern is which may cause the intended target to stop doing what ever it is doing right now. Data indicates that the best of the 9s seem to be a little better than the best of the 45s but both are good. A 9mm 115-127 grain jhp at 1200-1300 fps is going to beat the 45 fmj, but give the 45 a good jhp and bump up the velocity some and it gets close.
Then it also depends upon the target. If the target is hogs then I would prefer the 45 unless you can only get head shots. |
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Lethality is not really an issue.Yes it is, that's what the OP asked it's his question. The concern is which may cause the intended target to stop doing what ever it is doing right now.I agree but stopping an attacker is not he same as killing an attacker and the OP ask about "More Lethal". Data indicates that the best of the 9s seem to be a little better than the best of the 45s but both are good. No . A 9mm 115-127 grain jhp at 1200-1300 fps is going to beat the 45 fmj, but give the 45 a good jhp and bump up the velocity some and it gets close. Check your facts, Barnes on Barnes, Golddot on Golddot dot the .45 is better. Then it also depends upon the target. If the target is hogsHog wearing denim? or behind wallboard? then I would prefer the 45 unless you can only get head shots. Quoted:
Here we go again. 
A modern 124gr.+P or 147gr. (Ranger, Gold Dot, or HST) 9mm will outperform a FMJ .45acp. or a FMJ .40 S&W. Read the ammo FAQ at the top of the page. Oh, and make sure your calendar says 2011, not 1911.  (I admit these comparisons are silly but I'll bite...here we go...I had a huge wall of text and realized how really stupid this 9 vs 45 BS is so I redacted it.  )
Well now that wasn't the question was it? "Which is more lethal? quality 9mm hollow point or .45 FMJ?" IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. |
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There are still too many variable in your cage match. What weight 9mm vs what weight .45? What velocity? All I can say is the .45 will leave a bigger hole without expanding than the 9mm will even at full expansion. I think the .45 still beats the 9mm hollowpoint but as we all know shot placement is key. I have no scientific data to give you but just based on bullet energy transfer and sheer diameter I'd say the .45. You are completelt wrong. It doesnt matter what the velocity is. With good bullets, JHPs expand more often than not. That said, 9mm expansion, even after encountering many intermediate barriers, will still expand to a wider diameter than .45. Energy transfer with pistol rounds is BS. The stickies in thid forum ptove as much. |
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I'd say the .45 is, because there's no guarantee that the 9mm will actually open. If someone is wearing heavy clothing, like a leather jacket or a winter coat, the 9mm probably wouldn't open at all. BS! Again, with good JHPs, expansion is the norm. With good JHPs, denim, leather, down are no obstacle. |
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.45 will still make the bigger hole. .45 because my logic rules. Prove it. Technical forum, back your facts. Well the last time I looked at my yardstick .45 inch was still larger than 9mm which is .354 inch. So, I suggest you prove it. Since as you stated "It doesnt matter what the velocity is." and " engery transfer with pistol rounds I'd BS." As of today .45 still makes a larger entry hole than a 9mm. By your logic all we're talking about is size. |
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Sorry, I was drinking when I posted. I should have stated, which, in your opinion is more likely to stop the BG from doing whatever he is doing. I realize there are a lot of variables but thought this was a little different than the standard .45 vs 9mm debate. Quality HP vs quality HP, I'd say the .45 is going to stop someone better. I see there are still opinions on both sides for .45 FMJ vs 9mm JHP.
From the numbers I've seen in the FAQs, a fully open/expanded 9m is larger than a .45 FMJ that does not expand. So, I guess thew answer is, use what you have and take your shots carefully. Thanks guys. |
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In your hypothetical scenario, the 9mm hollowpoint would probably win. A 45 FMJ has a round nose and crushes tissue in it's path, but also allows some of the tissue in the bullet path to be pushed aside. Consequently, the actual hole will be slightly smaller than .45". An expanding 9mm bullet will have an ED of about 0.65" which is larger than the 45 bullet to begin with, and the edges of the HP bullet will be sharp. That allows the expanded bullet to slice through tissue. |
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Quoted: I'd say the 45 fmj is more lethal. FMJ's tend to create entry and exit wounds. So on the same token, i'd venture to guess a 9mm fmj is more lethal than a 9mm jhp as well. Your post is completely wrong. Please refrain from posting incorrect information like this in the technical forums. |
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I'd say the 45 fmj is more lethal. FMJ's tend to create entry and exit wounds. So on the same token, i'd venture to guess a 9mm fmj is more lethal than a 9mm jhp as well. Your post is completely wrong. Please refrain from posting incorrect information like this in the technical forums. Well I'm sure JHP's are better manstoppers. But if an FMJ travels further into a person, my hypothesis is that it will cause more tissue damage. I'm not a surgeon or ballistics expert. It is just a guess. |
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Quoted: I'd read up on terminal ballistics, read some of the other threads here, and then re-guess. Quoted: Quoted: I'd say the 45 fmj is more lethal. FMJ's tend to create entry and exit wounds. So on the same token, i'd venture to guess a 9mm fmj is more lethal than a 9mm jhp as well. Your post is completely wrong. Please refrain from posting incorrect information like this in the technical forums. Well I'm sure JHP's are better manstoppers. But if an FMJ travels further into a person, my hypothesis is that it will cause more tissue damage. I'm not a surgeon or ballistics expert. It is just a guess. |
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.45 will still make the bigger hole. .45 because my logic rules. Prove it. Technical forum, back your facts. Well the last time I looked at my yardstick .45 inch was still larger than 9mm which is .354 inch. So, I suggest you prove it. Since as you stated "It doesnt matter what the velocity is." and " engery transfer with pistol rounds I'd BS." As of today .45 still makes a larger entry hole than a 9mm. By your logic all we're talking about is size. Sorry partner, you dont know what you're yapping about. You also dont know about discussion. YOU made a claim. Its up to YOU to back it up. This isnt General Discussion where you can spout drivel with no facts to support you or your case. I'm feeling charitable today, so I'm gonna go against the grain. Now go sit in the corner while I school ya. With FMJ you have a rounded profile that merely pushes more tissue out of the way than it crushes. This leads to the entrance wound being smaller than .45 caliber. A quality 9mm JHP expanded (again, good JHPs expand far more often than not) has sharp surfaces that that tear and lacerate flesh. They also have a have a wider all around meplat that causes more tissue to be crushed, and less to be pushed aside. It doesnt matter what velocity is in handguns. It never has. Energy transfer all is not a wounding factor. It never has been. Its about bullet design and construction. You'd know this if you bothered to read any of the various stickies here, but its obvious you havent, so I'll go ahead and be a super nice, awesome guy and link it for you here: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by S.A. Urey Patrick (Ret.) APPLESAUCE! |
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I've had occasion to use both in 'UGLY I had experience with each in "unpleasant situations." Two in the boiler room and one betwixt the runnin' lights with a .45ACP has served me very well. Not that 9mm would not have done the job, but I know the .45ACP put an end to the 'discussions." YMMV, mine didn't. <Removed excess line breaks - Z> |
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Quoted: I haven't been on here much in the past month, but in that time frame arfcom has gotten completely retarded! Posts like most of the replies in this thread would have been shot down literally in minutes before. What happened? Are we purging the intellectuals?  |
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Quoted: IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. |
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IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj performace in the tacked thread. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj performace in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj performace in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. Unless a person is of the opinion that over-penetration is blown out of proportion, especially taking hit ratios into account, and that CNS hits are more important that wound cavities. |
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IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. So, even though there is no comparative info in the tacked thread for fmj I'm repeatedly chastised to refer to the tacked thread. I can respect that and as I already stated FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument. I KNOW JHP outperforms FMJ but I've yet to see comparative info on 9mm JHP vs .45 FMJ so I'm going to defer to my gut which tells my smaller (9mm even in jhp) is inferior and members just saying "WRONG! BS! doesn't really help me or the OP. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj performace in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. Unless a person is of the opinion that over-penetration is blown out of proportion, especially taking hit ratios into account, and that CNS hits are more important that wound cavities. Notice I said GROSSLY overpenetrates; we aren't just talking about a few inches:  |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. So, even though there is no comparative info in the tacked thread for fmj I'm repeatedly chastised to refer to the tacked thread. I can respect that and as I already stated FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument. I KNOW JHP outperforms FMJ but I've yet to see comparative info on 9mm JHP vs .45 FMJ so I'm going to defer to my gut which tells my smaller (9mm even in jhp) is inferior and members just saying "WRONG! BS! doesn't really help me or the OP. I posted this earlier in the thread: In your hypothetical scenario, the 9mm hollowpoint would probably win. A 45 FMJ has a round nose and crushes tissue in it's path, but also allows some of the tissue in the bullet path to be pushed aside. Consequently, the actual hole will be slightly smaller than .45". An expanding 9mm bullet will have an ED of about 0.65" which is larger than the 45 bullet to begin with, and the edges of the HP bullet will be sharp. That allows the expanded bullet to slice through tissue. You can continue to be deliberately obtuse, or you can accept the fact that there is NO agency I know of which issues 45 FMJ, but does issue 9mm/40/45 hollowpoints. The reason for that is obvious if you look at the data. |
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Quoted: Notice I said GROSSLY overpenetrates; we aren't just talking about a few inches: http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg When statistically people miss much more than they hit, what's over penetration in a round that's relying on CNS hits to cause quick incapacitation? Where the rubber meets the road, is that there are a LOT of people who still used .45ACP FMJ for concealed carry and self defense. I would say it's "complete" penetration. It might be "over penetration" compared to JHP's, but that's apples to oranges as the two styles of bullet work differently. Personally, I hate all the hype of JHP's and how much better they are than FMJ, and the stigmata that JHP's MUST be used, especially the crowd that has let it become gun lore that if you don't carry JHP's you'll get fried in court (I blame Mas  ).Because if it wasn't for that, I might be able to rock EFJ or bonded JSP 10mm and .38 super (or .357 sig for "those people"), making use of my firearms potential for penetration AND expansion instead of having everything dumbed down in velocity to ensure the JHP's don't over expand and under penetrate (in the case of 10mm, leading to the introduction of .40 S&W). |
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IF both rounds are fired thru anything other than naked skin, AKA bare gelatin. Denim, wall board, etc, hollowpoints tend to behave like solids or give inconsistent results. Therefore bigger is better. 9MM JHP is awesome against naked intruders. I just caught this late. Your assertions is completely incorrect. All the bullets on the recommended list must pass the FBI protocol against bare gelatin AND barriers in order to be considered effective. Those hollowpoints will work against more than just naked intruders. Please read up on the FAQ before posting such nonsense. Ok, thanks. I'm not finding any info on .45 auto fmj in the tacked thread. That's because it isn't recommended. It grossly overpenetrates and has too small of a permanent wound cavity to even be considered. So, even though there is no comparative info in the tacked thread for fmj I'm repeatedly chastised to refer to the tacked thread. I can respect that and as I already stated FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument. I KNOW JHP outperforms FMJ but I've yet to see comparative info on 9mm JHP vs .45 FMJ so I'm going to defer to my gut which tells my smaller (9mm even in jhp) is inferior and members just saying "WRONG! BS! doesn't really help me or the OP. I posted this earlier in the thread: In your hypothetical scenario, the 9mm hollowpoint would probably win. A 45 FMJ has a round nose and crushes tissue in it's path, but also allows some of the tissue in the bullet path to be pushed aside. Consequently, the actual hole will be slightly smaller than .45". An expanding 9mm bullet will have an ED of about 0.65" which is larger than the 45 bullet to begin with, and the edges of the HP bullet will be sharp. That allows the expanded bullet to slice through tissue.
You can continue to be deliberately obtuse, or you can accept the fact that there is NO agency I know of which issues 45 FMJ, but does issue 9mm/40/45 hollowpoints. The reason for that is obvious if you look at the data. Well first of all I didn't pose this question. Second, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I'm simply responding in the same manner in which I was addressed. If anyone chooses to educate me, as you have attempted to do, beyond, "Wrong go read the tacked thread," I'll respect that. Third everyone you included, totally ignored the full content of my previous replys, in which I stated FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument." Fourth there are a huge number firearms owners, either by state law or ignorance must or we're taught FMJ is the thing to carry. So like Isaid, FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument, I was simply trying to entertain the OPs' question as it was posed. |
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An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.
Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37 Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf Also the difference between JHP and FMJ is totally blown out of proportion. A good read regarding the JHP hype is in "Gunshot Wounds" by Dr. Vincent DiMaio, which I would post if it weren't for technical difficulties with one of my computers. Given sufficient penetration the difference in effectiveness between any non-magnum handgun round is minimal. They all poke holes through tissue about the width of a finger. Whether that's pinky or index finger width isn't all that important, what really matters is which organs are penetrated. |
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An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely. Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37 Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf Also the difference between JHP and FMJ is totally blown out of proportion. A good read regarding the JHP hype is in "Gunshot Wounds" by Dr. Vincent DiMaio, which I would post if it weren't for technical difficulties with one of my computers. Given sufficient penetration the difference in effectiveness between any non-magnum handgun round is minimal. They all poke holes through tissue about the width of a finger. Whether that's pinky or index finger width isn't all that important, what really matters is which organs are penetrated. Couldn't agree more. Way too much focus on the minutia, not enough on the big picture. |
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The holes created by JHP's versus FMJ's matter.
Barring a hit to the central nervous system or a major bone, blood loss is what incapacitates with pistol rounds. Hitting the spleen doesn't matter much. A jagged .65" hole generates more blood loss that a smooth .45" hole. You want to rip veins, not slide past them. Start here: ammo link |
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Well first of all I didn't pose this question. Never said you did. Second, I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I'm simply responding in the same manner in which I was addressed. I addressed your first response. If you saw emotion in my response, ok, but there was none. If anyone chooses to educate me, as you have attempted to do, beyond, "Wrong go read the tacked thread," I'll respect that. Again, in my response to you, there was more than just your claim "Wrong go read a tacked thread". That may be all you saw, but I can assure you there was more to it. You were, and are wrong about muzzle energy, you even admit as much when you said, "I have no scientific data". I cited my claim of you being wrong by referring you to the sticky, and I even linked it for you later on. Third everyone you included, totally ignored the full content of my previous replys, in which I stated FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument." Be honest. In your second reply, the one in which you quoted BlitzPig, that is when you first said the comparison is silly. Fourth there are a huge number firearms owners, either by state law or ignorance must or we're taught FMJ is the thing to carry. Can you quantify that? Most? So like Isaid, FMJ vs JHP is a silly argument, I was simply trying to entertain the OPs' question as it was posed. It may very well be, but it doesnt really matter. You did entertain the OP's post, but you did so without facts to support your posts. You admit as much. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Notice I said GROSSLY overpenetrates; we aren't just talking about a few inches: http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg 1. When statistically people miss much more than they hit, what's over penetration in a round that's relying on CNS hits to cause quick incapacitation? 2. Where the rubber meets the road, is that there are a LOT of people who still used .45ACP FMJ for concealed carry and self defense. 3. I would say it's "complete" penetration. It might be "over penetration" compared to JHP's, but that's apples to oranges as the two styles of bullet work differently. 4. Personally, I hate all the hype of JHP's and how much better they are than FMJ, and the stigmata that JHP's MUST be used, especially the crowd that has let it become gun lore that if you don't carry JHP's you'll get fried in court (I blame Mas ).Because if it wasn't for that, I might be able to rock EFJ or bonded JSP 10mm and .38 super (or .357 sig for "those people"), making use of my firearms potential for penetration AND expansion instead of having everything dumbed down in velocity to ensure the JHP's don't over expand and under penetrate (in the case of 10mm, leading to the introduction of .40 S&W). 1. Not sure what your point is here. Quality JHPs will penetrate the required amount to get a CNS hit without the potential for massive overpenetration; FMJs have no advantage here. 2. The assertion that a lot of people still use .45ACP FMJ for defensive use (which is just an assertion, not fact) is irrelevant. I want to use what the experts say is best, not some guy off the street, or even what 51% of gun owners use. 3. Overpenetration with FMJs may not be a primary concern, but it is a valid concern; if you hit your attacker but the round goes through and hits an innocent bystander, you'll be liable for it. NYPD had a number of shootings where the round (9mm FMJ) overpenetrated and struck other people - http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/06/nyregion/hollow-point-ammunition-saves-lives-backers-say.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm 4. It is not hype that JHPs are superior to FMJs. They ARE superior in fulfilling the purpose of a defensive round. That's why every credible LE Agency uses them. JHPs are not the Hammer of Thor, but they offer real-world advantages to FMJs. Personally, I like to get all the advantages I can get should I have to defend my life with a handgun. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Notice I said GROSSLY overpenetrates; we aren't just talking about a few inches: http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg 1. When statistically people miss much more than they hit, what's over penetration in a round that's relying on CNS hits to cause quick incapacitation? 2. Where the rubber meets the road, is that there are a LOT of people who still used .45ACP FMJ for concealed carry and self defense. 3. I would say it's "complete" penetration. It might be "over penetration" compared to JHP's, but that's apples to oranges as the two styles of bullet work differently. 4. Personally, I hate all the hype of JHP's and how much better they are than FMJ, and the stigmata that JHP's MUST be used, especially the crowd that has let it become gun lore that if you don't carry JHP's you'll get fried in court (I blame Mas ).Because if it wasn't for that, I might be able to rock EFJ or bonded JSP 10mm and .38 super (or .357 sig for "those people"), making use of my firearms potential for penetration AND expansion instead of having everything dumbed down in velocity to ensure the JHP's don't over expand and under penetrate (in the case of 10mm, leading to the introduction of .40 S&W). 1. Not sure what your point is here. Quality JHPs will penetrate the required amount to get a CNS hit without the potential for massive overpenetration; FMJs have no advantage here. My point is that FMJ does not operate like JHP. We'll leave it at that. 2. The assertion that a lot of people still use .45ACP FMJ for defensive use (which is just an assertion, not fact) is irrelevant. I want to use what the experts say is best, not some guy off the street, or even what 51% of gun owners use. It's a fact. 3. Overpenetration with FMJs may not be a primary concern, but it is a valid concern; if you hit your attacker but the round goes through and hits an innocent bystander, you'll be liable for it. NYPD had a number of shootings where the round (9mm FMJ) overpenetrated and struck other people - http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/06/nyregion/hollow-point-ammunition-saves-lives-backers-say.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm So did JHP's. Proof you still have to watch your background no matter what. 4. It is not hype that JHPs are superior to FMJs. They ARE superior in fulfilling the purpose of a defensive round. That's why every credible LE Agency uses them. JHPs are not the Hammer of Thor, but they offer real-world advantages to FMJs. Personally, I like to get all the advantages I can get should I have to defend my life with a handgun. But are they superior to JSP's from higher velocity handguns such as 10mm, or .357 sig? |
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MarcW: I would really like to post this in the Ammo FAQ. May I use that and upload a copy to the ammo server (giving you credit)? |
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Quoted:
Zhukov, while I understand the article, you do realize that a whole lot of folks are going to see that as justification for using FMJs for self defense, and that the FBI protocol is meaningless. If you don't opposing viewpoints, you can't critique them. This article is so full of half truths and outdated information that it's almost laughable. For instance, he is correct about the need to hit vitals for a lethal shot, but off base in that lethality is not really the point. A "stop" the desired result, even if a stop may only be obtainable via lethality. Speed of death is irrelevant as you must shoot until threat stops whether it kills the perp or not. Psychological reasons are the single most important factor in a "stop" yet he basically skims over that fact and only touches on it at the end. His example of 18" penetration seems far fetched, but illustrates that adequate penetration depth varies case to case. Where exactly do you draw the line? 12" may be somewhat arbitrary but why not claim 24" or 36"? 12" seems a more realistic number. The discussion of permanent cavity is outdated. While older HP's mushroom, new ones have sharp leaves - and they both create a larger wound cavity in any case. He glosses over the fact that a bigger hole is a bigger hole. He touts the wounding potential of tumbling FMJ rounds yet ignores fact that HP's tumble, too. And an FMJ that does not tumble leaves the smallest possible permanent cavity due to the tapered nose pushing soft tissue aside rather than cutting it. The article claims temporary cavity is meaningless because it's virtually the same size with HP's and FMJ's. The fact is that with pistols the temp cavity is too small to exceed elastic limit of tissue and is hence not a significant factor in wounding. The author presents seemingly opposing views on HP's and fragmentation. First he claims that JHP's fragment through barriers when in fact modern HP's are designed and tested so they do NOT fragment through barriers. Then he claims that it is a myth that HP's fragment in tissue to wound. This is correct, as is his discussion of the confusion of rifle vs pistol wounds, but he seems ignorant of the wounding ability of rifle rounds due to the temporary cavity exceeding the elastic limit of the surrounding soft tissue. He's dead wrong on the first and right for the wrong reason on the second. In any case, you can't fix stupid. If someone is convinced FMJ's work better all evidence to the contrary won't change their mind. This article is pretty good if only to illustrate the deficiencies in the author's arguments. |