[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .22LR for CCW? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/9/2012 7:42:41 PM EDT
I have a buddy who carries a Walter P22. I carry a Glock 26. My contention is that he is not carrying an effective enough weapon and will be in a world of trouble if he ever has to defend himself against a serious threat. I also worry because he spreads his misinformation to other, newer shooters that do not know any better. Anyone else have this problem?
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It's better than a pointy stick I was grazed in the eye by a pointy stick in 07. Contact bandage for a week or so. Couldn't rub my eyes first thing in the morning, especially in the Winter. It finally seemed to be healed last spring. Never underestimate the pointy stick. |
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I'll send you one of my girlfriends purses without looking inside of it if you post of a video of you shooting yourself in the foot with a .22 caliber handgun. My guess is that even though it's a .22, and it would not be a fatal injury, you wouldn't do it. A .22 caliber handgun will still work as a deterrent and give him better odds. My SO is not comfortable shooting even 9mm, and when we had our first scare a couple weeks ago, I grabbed my AR and gave her my 9mm Shield. When I came back into the bedroom, she had put the 9mm back on my nightstand. We went out and got a Sig Mosquito because she feels comfortable with that, and anything is better than nothing. |
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I'll send you one of my girlfriends purses without looking inside of it if you post of a video of you shooting yourself in the foot with a .22 caliber handgun. My guess is that even though it's a .22, and it would not be a fatal injury, you wouldn't do it. A .22 caliber handgun will still work as a deterrent and give him better odds. My SO is not comfortable shooting even 9mm, and when we had our first scare a couple weeks ago, I grabbed my AR and gave her my 9mm Shield. When I came back into the bedroom, she had put the 9mm back on my nightstand. We went out and got a Sig Mosquito because she feels comfortable with that, and anything is better than nothing. I'm not talking about a woman who is afraid of a more powerful gun. I am talking about a 20-something male who thinks .22LR is the ideal round during a self defense situation. This individual also subscribes to the bird shot for home defense line of thinking. Oh, and I would not want to shoot myself in the foot with a bow and arrow or an air rifle. That does not mean either is acceptable for self defense. Better than nothing is only acceptable when still better options are not available. |
I have a swaging kit for .22 long rifles. I can swage them out to .222 .223 .224 .225 with three different punches for different nose profiles. With fast LR they really go splat. If you are close to the border I'd be happy to make some up for you.
IIRC a hot .22 LR is about as much energy as a .36 round ball with around 20 grains of black powder. Wild Bill Hickock carried a pair of Navy revolvers past the introduction of the 73 IIRC. I'd really like the Walther TPH .22 that looks like a small PPK. There used to be a company that made a neat silencer set with one. No chance of getting that here in MN. |
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Its better than a pointy stick
I guess I wouldn't worry too much god has a way of weeding out the stupid ones in time. There is plenty of literature to support at least 380, look at the information on penetration in gel alone. You can't convince stupid people, you better off just moving one, and hopefully help others. |
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A .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 at home in the safe. That said, if I were to ever carry a .22 it would be strictly a BUG. Again though, there are numerous better options.
Ask this guy how a .22 works as a defensive round though: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/92-year-old-wwii-vet-shoots-and-kills-home-intruder-as-soon-as-he-got-inside-it-was-all-over/ |
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Ask this guy how a .22 works as a defensive round though: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/92-year-old-wwii-vet-shoots-and-kills-home-intruder-as-soon-as-he-got-inside-it-was-all-over/ You notice that in that case he was using a 22 RIFLE, and the guy was still able to run away. He died later in his car. The problem with .22 is not that it can't kill someone, the problem is that unless you get a VERY lucky shot, they aren't going to die very quickly. Even a head shot isn't a sure thing, there are many cases of .22 glancing off of someone's skull. I realize that this can and has happened with larger/more powerful rounds, but it is a lot less likely. There is also the issue of penetrating enough to hit something vital. If you go for center mass, there is a good chance that a .22 won't go through ribs etc. I really don't understand why you would use a .22 pistol for defense, even as a BUG. There are absolutely TINY guns in .380, and it is a more capable round. |
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There is a difference between lethality and incapacitation. "Well here's a guy that got killed with a .22!" Who gives a shit? Cherry picking cases doesn't make the .22 any better of a defensive round. Have you ever noticed how many handgun defensive shootings end with "The intruder then fled the premises and was found collapsed down the street" or "he then ran outside and collapsed" or "he was arrested after checking in to the emergency room with gunshot wounds"? Pistols are pathetic fight stoppers.
A .22 might stop the guy. Maybe right now, maybe tomorrow. 10 rounds of .22 may all go center of mass, but while he's losing the blood pressure required to stop him, he is beating you to death. For a backup gun, sure, whatever. Primary, never. |
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.22 LR rimfire primers are unreliable. -1
.22 LR does not penetrate to 12" in gel. -1 Walther P22's have serious issues with reliability. -1 P22's have 10 round capacity, which is the same, or even less capacity than similarly sized centerfire autos. -1 What makes your friend think .22 is anywhere near adequate protection? "It's better than a pointy stick." Ok, well, you're carrying a gun anyway, why not make it a reliable, centerfire firearm with none of the drawbacks listed above? Oh, and the argument, "You wouldn't shoot yourself with it, so it's perfect, herp-derp" earns  /
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.22 LR rimfire primers are unreliable. -1 .22 LR does not penetrate to 12" in gel. -1 Walther P22's have serious issues with reliability. -1 P22's have 10 round capacity, which is the same, or even less capacity than similarly sized centerfire autos. -1 What makes your friend think .22 is anywhere near adequate protection? "It's better than a pointy stick." Ok, well, you're carrying a gun anyway, why not make it a reliable, centerfire firearm with none of the drawbacks listed above? Oh, and the argument, "You wouldn't shoot yourself with it, so it's perfect, herp-derp" earns / His reasoning was that it was cheap and that the he can make head or heart shots easily due to the low recoil.  He did bring up the lame "Would you want to get shot with it?" argument too.
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I don't like the idea for several reasons, all of which have already been stated.
However, if it is all that is available, or all that a person can handle, then it will usually penetrate deeply enough to produce results. Proper placement is key! Jeff Cooper favored the .22 for those unable or unwilling to use his beloved .45. It is not to be laughed at. Hopefully I am never reduced to having to use one. |
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I use one for small game, but not humans, I know back in the day my grand father would kill pheasants, and deer with head shots, but this was also a rifle not a pistol. Your friend has a lot of flawed logic, I would just give he is not going to change, when he decides to change it will be too late, as stated life has a way of dealing with stupid people.
I would not want to be shot with a 22LR, but then again what would you like to be shot with? |
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.22 LR rimfire primers are unreliable. -1 .22 LR does not penetrate to 12" in gel. -1 Walther P22's have serious issues with reliability. -1 P22's have 10 round capacity, which is the same, or even less capacity than similarly sized centerfire autos. -1 What makes your friend think .22 is anywhere near adequate protection? "It's better than a pointy stick." Ok, well, you're carrying a gun anyway, why not make it a reliable, centerfire firearm with none of the drawbacks listed above? Oh, and the argument, "You wouldn't shoot yourself with it, so it's perfect, herp-derp" earns / His reasoning was that it was cheap and that the he can make head or heart shots easily due to the low recoil. He did bring up the lame "Would you want to get shot with it?" argument too.Pretty poor reasoning on his part
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| You friend is defiantly in the "I'll never need it." crowd. I'll give him one thing, at least he's carrying. I know many gun owners who don't carry since they've never needed to carry so far in their lives and see it as a draw-back if they did. In any case, give him factual evidence that his choice is a bad one, let him read some of the online forums of people asking about .22lrs as their main defense gun (including this one) and the many problems people have had with the P22 in general. If all that dosn't convince him enough, then he has a really thick set of blinders on. |
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I will say, in the summer there are many days when all I will have on me is my NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. Everyone can give me crap that its not a real defense round (and I agree) but in my experience, most people talk about carrying more than they do. I can't believe how many times, I'll be talking with my "gun totter" friends and they'll start on me about that little .22 that I carry and then I ask what they have on them and 90% of the time the excuses start here. "Well, I was carrying but later on I gotta go .... and can't carry there so...." blah blah blah I'm sure everyone here carries their weapon all the time but I never seem to find you guys in real life. So for me, I'll take a .22 that's in my pocket than a 45 in the safe....
*I do know a few people who carry as much as many claim but they are few and far between **During the winter months my carry switches to a S&W 686+ 3" but even then I know I'm less consistent than when I carry the .22lr |
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I agree that a .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 in the safe, but what I don't understand is why you would choose a .22 when there are some TINY .380 pistols on the market.
I get wanting a smaller pistol because it is difficult to carry a full size, but why not carry a small .380? My brother in law has an LCP and that thing is TINY. You could easily drop it in your pocket and not even notice it was there.... |
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I agree that a .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 in the safe, but what I don't understand is why you would choose a .22 when there are some TINY .380 pistols on the market. I get wanting a smaller pistol because it is difficult to carry a full size, but why not carry a small .380? My brother in law has an LCP and that thing is TINY. You could easily drop it in your pocket and not even notice it was there.... The thing is the P22 is the size of many 9mms, 40s and 45s. Really no reason to carry a .22lr unless it's one of those tiny NAA revolvers as a second or third gun or the person has serious hand problems. |
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I agree that any person choosing a .22 that is as big or bulky as a .380 should choose the latter. I carried (or didnt) a pf9 but found in summer clothing it stay home too frequently. I am impressed by anyone that committed to security as to carry 30+ ounces day after day. For the rest of us, ill settle for anything that is with me frequently.
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IIRC a hot .22 LR is about as much energy as a .36 round ball with around 20 grains of black powder. Wild Bill Hickock carried a pair of Navy revolvers past the introduction of the 73 IIRC. In the interest of correctness Will Bill's 1851 Navys fired a ball that weighed twice as much as a .22 bullet at about the same velocity for twice the energy and momentum. The .375 ball also had three times the surface area for a much larger crush cavity. The 1851 Navy was more powerful than the .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long. They were about as powerful as the .38 S&W but less powerful than the .38 special. While Will Bill's Navys are pretty weak by modern standards they were still much more effective than any .22lr. |
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I will say, in the summer there are many days when all I will have on me is my NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. Everyone can give me crap that its not a real defense round (and I agree) but in my experience, most people talk about carrying more than they do. I can't believe how many times, I'll be talking with my "gun totter" friends and they'll start on me about that little .22 that I carry and then I ask what they have on them and 90% of the time the excuses start here. "Well, I was carrying but later on I gotta go .... and can't carry there so...." blah blah blah I'm sure everyone here carries their weapon all the time but I never seem to find you guys in real life. So for me, I'll take a .22 that's in my pocket than a 45 in the safe.... *I do know a few people who carry as much as many claim but they are few and far between **During the winter months my carry switches to a S&W 686+ 3" but even then I know I'm less consistent than when I carry the .22lr I carry an FN Hi Power, even in the summer months. Hell, I was even in Phoenix for a week, and I had no problem concealing it, and I'm pretty close to trim (i.e. not much body to hide it on). So, there really is little reason one cannot tote a competent firearm around through all seasons. A .22 is better than nothing, but a .380, 9mm, .40, .45 or others close to those are not even in the same league. Pistol cartridges are already a compromise, so why would one continue to further handicap themselves? |
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I will say, in the summer there are many days when all I will have on me is my NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. Everyone can give me crap that its not a real defense round (and I agree) but in my experience, most people talk about carrying more than they do. I can't believe how many times, I'll be talking with my "gun totter" friends and they'll start on me about that little .22 that I carry and then I ask what they have on them and 90% of the time the excuses start here. "Well, I was carrying but later on I gotta go .... and can't carry there so...." blah blah blah I'm sure everyone here carries their weapon all the time but I never seem to find you guys in real life. So for me, I'll take a .22 that's in my pocket than a 45 in the safe.... *I do know a few people who carry as much as many claim but they are few and far between **During the winter months my carry switches to a S&W 686+ 3" but even then I know I'm less consistent than when I carry the .22lr I carry an FN Hi Power, even in the summer months. Hell, I was even in Phoenix for a week, and I had no problem concealing it, and I'm pretty close to trim (i.e. not much body to hide it on). So, there really is little reason one cannot tote a competent firearm around through all seasons. A .22 is better than nothing, but a .380, 9mm, .40, .45 or others close to those are not even in the same league. Pistol cartridges are already a compromise, so why would one continue to further handicap themselves? I agree. I understand that traditional IWB with a gun belt run through the loops of your pants doesn't afford the absolute concealability needed to fool those who would cause you negative issues if they discovered you were carrying. What I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't carry an S&W Airweight in a pocket holster over the mini .22 revolvers. If it's the bulge in your pocket that you can't have, then there are other ways to always carry a duty caliber double stack OR that same Airweight in some form of an Apendix carry holster. The following is a solution that allows you to hide clips. http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_5_23/119307_New_Holster_for_my_Kahr_CM9.html The gun stays put and doesn't sag. I have also used the above solution with the item listed below. http://www.doubletapholsters.com/page/products#ecwid:category=2538237&mode=product&product=11101125 ( it's ambidextrious and works quite well. ) Mostly, when I want total concealment for my M&P 9c, I use a customized 3Speed holster. It is the same holster as what you see in their video's, but MUCH less material and no spare mag holder. ( VERY comfortable and streamlined. ) These deeper concealment apendix holsters are much faster to draw from than some would have you believe. Look at the following video for proof of speed for two and single handed draws. http://vimeo.com/27246774 ( I've tried the jj rigaza holster... It doesn't cover the trigger and the gun moves out of position EASILY. ) Belly bands don't require stiffening agents to keep the gun in position and don't have clips showing but the two that I wore out had too much material to be comfortable for any length of time. They also positioned my gun too high for deep concealment. |
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I migrated for my RF pocket secondary firearm in order, from
IverJohnson TP 22-.22 LR High Standard .22 magnum derringer AMT .380 Back Up S&W 60 .38 Special still have the Model 60, see: 
usual knife carry was a Bucklite just for cutting stuff. My usual concealed carry now is a 9mm, .357 or .45ACP. My primary SD option are New Balance Cross Trainers. I would not eschew a pointy stick if that was all I had available. |
I've done it. Wasn't happy, but I was working a job that absolutely prohibited firearms on premises. It was a convenience store, and I was working graveyard on Fridays and Saturdays.  I carried a Jennings .22 in a handmade pocket holser in my back pocket. Of course, this was a pistol I'd put a couple thousand rounds through, and I could bounce a pop can 5 of 6 shots at 40 feet. Across a convenience store counter, I was pretty confident I could hit a vital zone. For normal concealed carry? I think I'd rather have the pointy stick. |
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Quoted: I will say, in the summer there are many days when all I will have on me is my NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. Everyone can give me crap that its not a real defense round (and I agree) but in my experience, most people talk about carrying more than they do. I can't believe how many times, I'll be talking with my "gun totter" friends and they'll start on me about that little .22 that I carry and then I ask what they have on them and 90% of the time the excuses start here. "Well, I was carrying but later on I gotta go .... and can't carry there so...." blah blah blah I'm sure everyone here carries their weapon all the time but I never seem to find you guys in real life. So for me, I'll take a .22 that's in my pocket than a 45 in the safe.... *I do know a few people who carry as much as many claim but they are few and far between **During the winter months my carry switches to a S&W 686+ 3" but even then I know I'm less consistent than when I carry the .22lr Add me to your 100% carry everywhere list  |
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Don't waste your time arguing. Like this thread has shown some people use flawed reasoning to justify their choices and will stand by them regardless of the facts.
FWIW, I carry 100% of the time with a .380 minimum (99% or the time it's a 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 or .45). |
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I've known a few people who carried .22 revolvers or those Hi-Standard over/under derringers- most of them were older folks and it's what they'd carried for years (remember at one point .38 revolvers were considered high powered and many folks carried various European and Colt .25s, 32s and 380s.) or they were female and had issues (real or imagined) with carrying a larger caliber. I know one older fellow who still carries a .32 top break revolver in his pocket- his opinion is it was good enough for his father so it's good enough for him.
That said, if I were going to carry any .22 for self defense it'd be one of the Airweight S&Ws that holds eight rounds- definitely not one of those POS Walthers. |
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sandboxmedic, good and valid point. Had a 73 yr old neighbor who was a judge, he carried a Colt .25 every time, all the time.
A fine man, it would have been a mistake to take his small stature or advanced years as weaknesses - he was the real deal. RIP Judge D. |
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My father thinks that .22 is ideal self defense. He is in his 70's and I cannot convince him otherwise.
He mainly talks about the speed of the round and all that... I dont think he considers over penetration or anything of the sort. We are shopping for my wife a cc gun currently. We shot one of those Mosquito's .22's and she loved it. I had considered getting her one. But I just keep hearing the voice in the back of my head saying... "bigger caliber" she shot my sisters p238 .380 and liked it so we may go that route... |
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Here is a website that I found:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html |
| yeah i definitely agree that with the size of the p22, he can carry any number of similar sized service caliber pistols. However, y'all read up on the chechnyan snipers... they wreak a lot of havoc in urban areas with .22 rifles. The round will work, but as already stated there is a difference in lethality and incapacitation |
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Quoted: I will say, in the summer there are many days when all I will have on me is my NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. Everyone can give me crap that its not a real defense round (and I agree) but in my experience, most people talk about carrying more than they do. I can't believe how many times, I'll be talking with my "gun totter" friends and they'll start on me about that little .22 that I carry and then I ask what they have on them and 90% of the time the excuses start here. "Well, I was carrying but later on I gotta go .... and can't carry there so...." blah blah blah I'm sure everyone here carries their weapon all the time but I never seem to find you guys in real life. So for me, I'll take a .22 that's in my pocket than a 45 in the safe.... *I do know a few people who carry as much as many claim but they are few and far between **During the winter months my carry switches to a S&W 686+ 3" but even then I know I'm less consistent than when I carry the .22lr Sounds like you need a better carry setup. I carry a M&P9c, with jeans, tshirt, and a camel bak while tromping through the woods while its 100F outside. Never mind normal carry conditions. |
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I have a buddy who carries a Walter P22. I carry a Glock 26. My contention is that he is not carrying an effective enough weapon and will be in a world of trouble if he ever has to defend himself against a serious threat. I also worry because he spreads his misinformation to other, newer shooters that do not know any better. Anyone else have this problem? All handguns are weapons of compromise. A Ruger 10/22 properly set up can be one hell of an effective home defense weapon. That being said, we have a whole lot of shootings on the street to look at and the science says that .22LR is not good for making bad people cease and desist immediately. Service calibers work better. People often complain they can't carry anything better. These people often have no fucking idea how to carry a gun. There is such a thing as the Non-Permissive Environment and there are times where it's carry something small or carry nothing...but most of the time when I encounter people who insist they can't pack anything better it's a result of their own piss poor choices rather than reality. |
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I carried an NAA .22 Magnum whenever I wore a fitted suit working at an office. I also carried a fighting knife and had a CZ82 in my car. There is nothing wrong with a .22Mag for the circumstance of what it is for. What you carry depends on preference, but also it depends on where you work or where you are. When I left the office, I strapped on my CZ82 in a shoulder holster and threw on my blazer, and I was good to go. However, I couldn't do this in the office because I often took my coat off. In my office building though, I could easily make a .22 Magnum deadly in the close and narrow halls, especially since they were hollow point.
If you train with it and know how to use it, you can kill someone with any caliber. Some just do it faster and messier than others. But remember, there is a reason the Nazi SS used to carry .22 LR's. |
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I have a buddy who carries a Walter P22. I carry a Glock 26. My contention is that he is not carrying an effective enough weapon and will be in a world of trouble if he ever has to defend himself against a serious threat. I also worry because he spreads his misinformation to other, newer shooters that do not know any better. Anyone else have this problem? All handguns are weapons of compromise. A Ruger 10/22 properly set up can be one hell of an effective home defense weapon. That being said, we have a whole lot of shootings on the street to look at and the science says that .22LR is not good for making bad people cease and desist immediately. Service calibers work better. People often complain they can't carry anything better. These people often have no fucking idea how to carry a gun. There is such a thing as the Non-Permissive Environment and there are times where it's carry something small or carry nothing...but most of the time when I encounter people who insist they can't pack anything better it's a result of their own piss poor choices rather than reality. You are now my best friend. |