|
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm sorry, 9mm or bigger for me... |
|
The truth is .32 ACP and .380 ACP have about the same, real world, one shot stop (torso) street/combat history according to Det. Evan Marshall, Detroit, MI Homicide who began compiling real world data on handgun round effectiveness. W/o delving into specific brand/type debates here is the rough breakdown. Again, one shot stop - torso (in terms of percentage of effectiveness - what percentage of the time, historically has the one torso shot worked) .22 & .25 ACP: 20% (regardless of ammo type) .32 & .380: (30-40%) .38 SPL and 9mm (roundnose .38 and ball, 9mm): 50-55% .38 SPL +P LSWC-HP (from a 4"): 65% .45 ACP (ball): 65% (.44 SPL & .45 Long Colt about the same) Modern high performance ammo for 9mm & .40: 80-85% Modern high performance ammo for .45 ACP : 87-92% .44 Mag: 90-92% .357 Mag with 125 grain JHP: 96% Marshall's studies do explain that there are fewer examples of data for the large calibers and the modern high performance ammo categories, so the data there may be a little skewed. Whereas data for .357 goes back at least 30 or more years and data for the .38/9mm/.45 go back about a century. No handgun is the ideal "stopper" but some are clearly better than others. A hit with a .38 beats a miss with a .45 and a .32 KEL TEC in your pocket beats a 9mm Glock left in your nightstand drawer when a street creature comes up on you as you are walking to your car from a pizza place (like happened to my wife and I some time ago in Shelton, CT and we were not carrying at the time! fortunately, we were able to get to the car and drive off while asshat was pounding on the door demanding money and a ride!) There's the table of reality and I am not opening a debate window: just sharing someone else's published stats. |
|
With .32 ACP: I would focus on practicing with ball ammo, at 3 yds and 7 yds max, double tap to center of mass, followed up by one, or more follow ups to the head I would apply the same tactic with a .38 snubbie; a .380 or a .22 handgun Staple two paper plates to your cadboard target frame; one about six to eight inches above the other, to represent POI for torso and head and practice. Reality shows one shot stops rarely work with the small bore handguns. However, two rapidly placed, well aimed shots work much better. If the assailant does not stop after those two rapid, well placed shots, go for the head, because dumping the rest of the mag or cylinder into the torso won't work fast enough if the first two haven't. In such a case, your assailant is either doped up, armored or otherwise projectiles failed to pierce anything vital. Many expanding rounds that look impressive in gelatin tests and wet phone book tests do not work that way in reality. Their velocity is too low in small bore short barreled handguns anyway, their construction as in W-W silvertips is too soft and compromises penetration and you can place rounds more accurately, more rapidly with standard velocity regular ammo in .32/.380/.38 SPL I would RATHER have five 158 gr LRNs or LSWCs in a S&W Bodyguard that I could rapidly and accurately hit with than five booming plus Ps that won't expand much, won't penetrate more but WILL decrease the ability to place hits WILL slow rate of fire and WILL blind you with muzzle flash leaving you helpless at the most critical moment. Same for the .32 and for that reason, go with a .32 that can use ball and practice with it |
Marshall and Sanow data is pure CRAP. Ignore ALL of it. 
|
|
Marshall and Sanow have been thoroughly discredited for both their data and their research methodology. There has been plenty of wound ballistics research done and published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and there is a lot of 'debunking' of Marshall/Sanow online available for the googling. If your load expands reliably, it's...shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. People die with .22LR shots every day. Okay, can of worms. FBI studies (also available for the searching) have indicated that with the heart blown out someone can still function for 10 - 15 seconds on oxygen already in the bloodstream and brain. I still don't want to be shot with a .32 - a BUG has a purpose! Go to ktog.org and look for Goldenloki's .32 ACP tests for expansion. |
|
I found this (Link:) GoldenLoki Test Results Are Glasers really the "Magic" bullet they are made out to be? Are Magsafes really that hot? |
"no" and "no" for most uses, the specialty bullets, while delivering some of what they promise, also falls short in other critical areas |
|
In personal CCW defense situations, confidence counts a lot more than caliber. Otherwise, you shouldn't be shooting anyway. Therefore, if .32 is all you have and you practice with it until hitting your target is like second nature. You got plenty. Just don't try to be a hero. That's with any pistol. |
|
Marshall discredited by whom? Another expansion wizard who wants to sell his BS book? Fact remains, with a handgun, especially a smaller handgun, shot placement is key and being able to produce rapid, accurate hits are what matters. Not, "xyz" wonder bullet that expanded to .50" in some test medium. THAT is all bullshit and none of it works in real life. Get gun, ammo targets and f-ing practice. THAT is what will save your ass in a life and death situation |
|
Steve: It is 'debunked' by someone just because they say it is so… The debunkers usually have little or nothing to offer in return .Or as you pointed out, are pushing their own pet project. Most of the debunkers are dead set against field results! They rely on lab testing and include some autopsy results that support their lab findings. They don't list the results that do not support their findings… I have the Marshall & Sanow book. I read the notes and appendices before reading the results. I took the data with a grain of salt but overall was satisfied with the rankings. |
|
Everyone bitches and moans about the weakness of the .30 carbine round, which is considered about as much as a .357. However, according to that one guys "research", a .357 round has a 96% chance of stopping someone with one shot to the chest. How come we aren't hearing that about .30 carbine? If a .357 was that good, shouldn't something like an 8mm Mauser, 30-06, 7.62x54r, or .308 have a 100% chance of exploding the enemy into a mass of blood and giblets. No. Which leads me to believe that research is BS. |
|
I carry a p32 daily. I use the aquila 71gr ball ammo. It is a small gun, but it's main purpose, in my eyes, are to give someone something other than me and mine something to focus on. If little bullet holes do that, great. Its always with me, as said, beats the 9mm in my car, when I am not in my car. TXL |
Because "that one guy" compiled his data from ACTUAL SHOOTINGS of HUMANS and most humans that were ever shot with a .30 carbine were shot with FMJ ammo which in a small caliber (like .30) is not very effective for personal defense. They were also shot on a battlefield where actual stopping power (e.g. how fast the target went down) is difficult to measure. His data focuses on handgun calibers that are likely to be used for personal self-defense. There have been some shootings with softpoint .30 carbine, but not enough to be statistically significant. If you'll read "that one guy's" book you'll find his statistical analysis logical, his methods sound, and his conclusions clear and true. It isn't based on Dux-Seal, wet phone books, sides of beef, or water filled milk jugs. Marshall and Sanow (actually those TWO guys) wrote about actual shootings and that's as good as it gets. |
it's better than a knife right ? I carry either a 9mm or 45acp but I could work with a 380 or 32, you just different tactics. |
| Try Fiocchi ball. www.aimsurplus.com has it. It's a little hotter than the USA ball. |
|
Whats the one shot stop of a 12 gauge 00 Buck center mass? The key to everything is shot placement. Id take a shotgun over any of the above weapons. People get so focused on power or ballistic charts. In the right hands a .22 is more effective than an AR in the wrong hands. Train Train Train. To be honest I shot all my guns enough to know that I could be effective in a situation if I needed it. Is there some that I prefer over other; yes. At the same time ppl make out a lower caliber weapon to seem like it simply causes a small hole similar to a BB. People need to realize all guns can and will kill. |
|
You're welcome DOTW. The solution is practice. Shoot and shoot some more and then when you think you've got it down pat, run an extra few drills. Invest in 1,000 rds of 71 grain ball ammo. You'll need five or six rounds to actually carry. Save one box for actual carry Shoot the other 950 rds as described below: Practice bringing the gun into action, getting two shots center of mass at 3 yards in the first paper plate stapled to your cardboard frame and then go for one shot to the "head" (upper paper plate). Work toward form and accuracy first, speed second. Get the first two shots in together close together on the paper. The speed will follow and your smoothness will improve. Then work on 7 yards with the same drill After that, try "slicing the pie" with two separate targets. Work on about 100 rds per range session. Choose a safe, concealable and practical carrying method; keep the pistol clean of built up lint balls and dust. After nine sessions of doing the above, 100 rds per session; you'll be more prepared to use your handgun effectively if ever needed on the street. It will take one session per weekend, two months MINIMUM to get to a workable level. This advice will work better than investing in Silvertips, Glasers or other such BS that really doesn't work in real life. People who buy a gun plus a box of silvertips, shoot ten rounds and put it away are a hazard to themselves and the public at large when they carry. |