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AR15.COM
7/29/2008 9:26:15 AM EDT
We recently bought the following:

.45
golden sabre
230gr
185gr +P

Tap
200gr fpd

hornady custom 230gr  jhp/xtp +P

40 S&W
corbon 150gr jhp

federal personal defense
165gr hydra shok jhp

golden sabre 165gr

federal hst
180gr hst/hp

hornady custom
.357sig
124gr jhp/xtp

Would the +P ammo be suitable to fire from  p245 or a kimber pro carry? Are the Hornaday custom load suitable for ccw or home protection and will it hurt the fire arm?
Does anyone use any of these loads and how have they performed for you? What is the ideal load for each caliber for home protection vise personal carry. lastly which brand/ load of the afore mentioned list  is favored more by law enforcement?
7/29/2008 9:36:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Please read the post "Best choices for self defense ammo" tacked at the top of the forum.
7/29/2008 12:43:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks, however after reading the article
some questions still remain. Specifically others expriences with the listed ammo to wit
reliability, recoil ( understandable varies with firearm) and accuracy.
Regarding the +P ammo, IMO at least with the .45  cal anything less than 230gr is considered +P. Is this correct?
When buying manufactured +P ammo how does one ( a novice) determine if it will harm a particular firearm or wether that firearm can adequately support the pressure?
7/29/2008 12:52:34 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Regarding the +P ammo, IMO at least with the .45  cal anything less than 230gr is considered +P. Is this correct?


No.


When buying manufactured +P ammo how does one ( a novice) determine if it will harm a particular firearm or wether that firearm can adequately support the pressure?


Check with the firearm's manufacturer.

Why the need for +P? The listed choices from the FAQ all pass the FBI's test requirements.

[ETA]

Manufacturers make +P for varying reasons. Bullet performance was not always what it is today, and extra pressure/velocity was a way to squeeze out more performance from mediocre cartridges.

The only thing that really matters are:
1) Does the bullet expand properly?
2) Does the expanded bullet penetrate the required 12" minimum?

If the answer is yes to both, then it makes no difference what the initial velocity is. Some manufacturers are able to make the criteria with standard loadings, while some - such as the Winchester 9mm Ranger-T 127gr +P+ - have to use the extra velocity to reach the required performance.

Velocity is also a big selling factor for some people, and companies prey on that.

FWIW - the following section of the self-defense ammo FAQ states the following:


Velocity seems to be the "holy grail" for a lot of folks when they decide to choose their handgun ammo, and they tend to gravitate towards +P or even +P+ loads. As mentioned above, velocity is not always good or useful. This is something to keep in mind when deciding between a "fast" 127gr +P+ or 147gr load in 9mm for example. Another factor is the ability to control the follow-up shot. If you have two loads which both perform about the same, you might consider going to the slow/heavy bullet due to the fact that the slower load is more easily controlled. Consider the data from Winchester in regards to their 9mm 127gr +P+ load (1250 fps) versus the 147gr load (990 fps) in the Ranger-T line:

Gelatin
127gr = 12.3" penetration and 0.64" ED
147gr = 13.9" penetration and 0.65" ED

4-Ply Denim
127gr = 12.5" penetration and 0.68" ED
147gr = 14.5" penetration and 0.66" ED

Heavy Cloth
127gr = 12.2" penetration and 0.68" ED
147gr = 14.0" penetration and 0.66" ED


Notice the "light and fast" bullet basically performs the same as the "slow and heavy" bullet. Either one will be fine.
7/29/2008 5:11:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Zhukov..
I want to apologize for the IM. I did not get all the info on your second post as I was trying to veiw it from my cell. I feel crappy because it was not my intention to tick you off.

I am sorry and I apologize.
7/29/2008 5:39:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Not a problem.
7/30/2008 8:43:41 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

Regarding the +P ammo, IMO at least with the .45  cal anything less than 230gr is considered +P. Is this correct?




The SAAMI specification for .45 acp is 21,000 psi or less
The SAAMI specification of .45 acp +P is 23,000 psi or less

This is the difference, not the weight of the projectile.
7/31/2008 6:29:28 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Regarding the +P ammo, IMO at least with the .45  cal anything less than 230gr is considered +P. Is this correct?




The SAAMI specification for .45 acp is 21,000 psi or less
The SAAMI specification of .45 acp +P is 23,000 psi or less

This is the difference, not the weight of the projectile.


Yep.  "+P" is an increased pressure round.  Generally right around 10% from the standard spec.  These specs come from SAAMI: http://www.saami.org/

You will generally only find "+P" loadings in the old cartidge designs (.45ACP, 9x19, .38spcl.; all designed just after 1900) since modern firearms, materials, and manufacturing techiniques are generally much better than they were ~100 years ago.  You won't find +P loadings for more modern cartridges like .40SW, .357Sig, 10mm, etc. since they are already designed around modern firearms and materials.
7/31/2008 8:40:45 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
Please read the post "Best choices for self defense ammo" tacked at the top of the forum.


Zhukov, just curious, but do you know if the ammunition list tacked at the top of this forum was tested in standard length barrels or if the approved list was tested in short barrels as well? Also, which loads were used in the attached photos of the gel tests listed?
7/31/2008 8:50:46 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Please read the post "Best choices for self defense ammo" tacked at the top of the forum.


Zhukov, just curious, but do you know if the ammunition list tacked at the top of this forum was tested in standard length barrels or if the approved list was tested in short barrels as well? Also, which loads were used in the attached photos of the gel tests listed?


No - I remember reading at one point in time which bullet was used for the pic of all the various calibers/weights (which is what I assume you were referring to). They were either Ranger-T's or God Dots if I remember correctly.

As far as barrel lengths - there's no hard data for that. Most of the hollowpoints in question have velocity envelopes that are wide enough to handle shorter barrels. If your pistol is much less than 3.5", it might be worthwhile to look into +P or "short barrel" ammunition.
7/31/2008 9:12:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the info sir. I wish I could some type of photos of the Double Tap 10mm loads just for comparison purposes.