Posted: 8/7/2008 8:50:00 AM EDT
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I have just recently received my ccw permit and have began carrying everywhere I can. Prior to carrying a handgun, I carried a small can or mace, but now I feel that as a civvie' that carrying a non-lethal option could be a bit of a liability. My aim is not arrest or detention such as a LEO where chemical agents are a definite reduction of liability, but personal/third party defense. An example being: I am placed in a situation where a justified shooting takes place. in the following legal proceedings, could carrying a non-lethal alternative and forgoing it for lethal force be held against me? I just imagine a gun hating attorney painting me as a eager to shoot redneck because I went to deadly force. Additionally, if I see a confrontation moving towards engagement already requiring a split second decision, I would rather not be mulling over whether to go for the spray of the gun. Any thoughts? Comments? Criticisms? |
Hey, congrats on the permit, and welcome to the CLUB! Actually, carrying a nonlethal option is a great idea recommended by many experts in the field. Any civilian who carries a firearm for defense would be well advised to carry OC spray of some sort, among other things. No, you won't face liability for having a nonlethal option and not using it. If you do shoot, and it IS a situation where lethal force was justified, you won't be "liable" for not using lethal first. If anything, having that option with you shows prudence on your part. Think about it, not ALL self-defense situations require lethal force. You don't want that to be your only option. Hell, if you can spray some dirtbag in the face and run the hell away, you've done your job, WITHOUT the Grand Jury heartache. Options are a very good thing. If you are in a situation where you at least TRY to use nonlethal force, and it doesn't work, they continue to attack, maybe with a weapon, and you have to shoot anyway, it makes you look that much better in the eyes of a Grand Jury. "See, my client tried to just spray this man, but that didn't work, he kept attacking, at which point my client had NO choice but to shoot to STOP THE THREAT." Obviously, you don't wanna get yourself killed because you wasted time spraying a guy in a situation where you should've just reached for the firearm to begin with--this is where the value of training and good situational awareness comes into play. Training is the key to "deciding" whether you're going for a gun, or using nonlethal. Get trained. Very important. I recommend carrying OC, a hell of alot of us do. I like Fox 5.3. |
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random thought: OC does provide a good go-between from full lethal response and no response if the situation presents itself that you can disperse OC w/ no reprecussions and flee...then that may be the most beneficial option for you and everyone else h/w, if its a justifiable shooting and you are in fear for your life and you decide to shoot, then i'd shoot the real gun...my life is not worth it to be messing around w/ non-lethal responses when the badguy is going for lethality |
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Great thing about OC is that you can have it in your hand and ready to deploy and it is significantly different than holding your pistol in your hand. If you need to go to deadly force, dropping your OC and transitioning to pistol is a pretty simple act. There are many times I could imagine OC stopping a threat that was not a deadly threat, but a danger to you or others nonetheless. Plus, you won't get sued and no one loses their life over it. Just another step in the "Force Ladder" in my opinion. If you do it right, no one even has to know you have a gun. |
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If it ain't worth me drawing my gun, it ain't worth me getting involved. That said, I think the concerns over an ambitious lawyer getting on you for not using OC first are about as valid as a lawyer getting on you for using handloads. Very unlikely, but certainly possible. If you are going to carry OC or other tools, make sure you get the training needed and understand the laws around those items. (ie my permit to carry does not allow me to carry otherwise illegal knifes, some states OC is illegal, etc.) |
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So you're going to just shoot the obnoxious drunk or buffoon that isn't presenting anything resembling a threat to life or limb? Or are your defensive tactics/martial arts skills so elite that you make Chuck Norris cower in fear and shame? The use of force is pretty well defined in every state in the nation. You know those worries that are essentiall groundless? |
Very good point. There are alot of times you can have that can in your hand very inconspicuously as you walk to the car, etc. Always good to have options. |
Yeah, but if you're untrained and get the shit in your own eyes then YOU ARE FUCKED! That happened to my mother. I posted the story in another thread awhile back. |
That's why we've pointed out the value of TRAINING. I believe I've mentioned TRAINING as being pretty damn important. TRAINING. Yes. We know. |
Ya but all the training in the world will not make up for a quick wind change. I have heard more stories of people getting the stuff in their eyes, due to the wind. I agree it would be a good idea but it may not work in all situations. MAHA |
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This has nothing to do with handcuffs. The same experts who would recommend carrying OC would advise you that it's stupid to be toting around a pair of cuffs. You are absolutely right about the wind thing, MAHA. That is true. It's always something to take into account. So on a windy day, or one where there have been gusts here and there, do not consider the OC to be an option. As an option, it isn't something you have to use, it's just there if you can or think it might be effective. You are correct doctor, if it isn't worth your life you SHOULD leave. I agree 100%. The first defense you should try is to RUN THE HELL AWAY. Not a thing wrong with that. |
No, I wouldn't shoot him. I would at most call the cops. Just because someone is being obnoxious doesn't mean you can hose them down with Fox. |
True, but this goes back to the jackass who gets in the doorway, starts shoving you around, and isn't going to even let you leave without a fight. |
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I think you nailed the situation on the head. IF you do carry OC, and you are in a fighting situation and NO weapons are involved, you will get sued for using your gun. You had an option to use less leathal in a situation. Fear of getting your ass beat is not a lethal situation. Just because it is demasculating for you to leave a fight, doesn't mean you can blow em away. Keep in mind, that if this situation comes up, and the police are called, all they are going to see is an armed suspect blowing away an unarmed person. Skip the OC, if you have it, and you can be sure that a cival suit will follow. You might win it, but good luck wiht the lawyer bills. You can't draw on someone to end a fight or try to scare them into not fighting. You then move from victim to assailant. IF you don't know how to use OC, and are not going to get the training to use it, what does that say about your use of a firearm and the laws surrounding the use of it? If you choose not to carry it, fine. IF you do, even better. Every time you encounter a situation where YOU have more options, you are better off. Personally, a handgun and a tazer would be the best combo. But, it costs around a grand, and is bulky. But, works perfect against fighters, knives, blunt objects, and keeps you from killing. |
The standard here is fear of "great bodily harm." Which has been proven in trials to include a 2 inch cut on your face, or a 4 inch cut on your stomach. If you feel that a "bad guy" is going to beat you up and there is great enough force disparity to spray him, there would be great enough threat to shoot him. There are no provisions in the law HERE that make exemptions for the use of a less-than-lethal force. Your actions would either be justified or assault, regardless if you used OC, rubber bullets, a stun gun, or your pistol. If some guy is blocking your path, try a different door, call 911, get help from the bouncer/bartender. If he attempts to assault you, or says and acts that he is about to assault you then the situation has changed. Always assume that your actions are going to result in you being arrested, thrown in jail, and eventually in court. Because it is likely that they will. Even in a good shoot you can expect a civil suit. I am not using force unless it is my only option, my last option. |
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I prefer only 2 options flee or fire. I have situtional awareness that gives me enough time to distance myself from idiots or potential threats. In 37 years I have never been in a fight that I couldn't have just as easily walked away from. When carrying a gun all your pride and ego needs to go away, your main concern is avoiding trouble, once you get involved you are introducing a deadly weapon. We are not law enforcement we don't need to place ourselves in dangerous situations and we don't need a less lethal option. If I can't avoid or run away from a threat chances are my gun is needed. If someone needs help I will help them, and if the criminal decides to escalate he will get shot. Pepper spray just isn't reliable enough to trust my life with it, if it gets in my face instead will I still be able to maint control of my gun or will the BG be able to get while i am rubbing my eyes? |
HA, well, we all get to make choices for ourselves, don't we. Either go however you've been trained....or......whatever floats your boat, I guess....... I guess the OP's just gonna have to decide for himself........ |
+1. Police usually travel in pairs or packs and if one gets OC in his own eyes, he has backup. YOU do NOT have the luxury of knowing that you will have immediate backup. |
| The State of Hawaii does not allow me to CCW so I only have OC spray to carry on my person for defense. I have it in a Comp Tac belt holster. It is better than nothing. If I do feel threatened, I will make every effort to leave. But if I am pursued and cornered and fear for my safety, I will use my Fox spray and then call 911. |
Yeah call the cops first, then fear for your life...a lot of anti-self defense advocates talk this way, what none of them realize is what could take place while they wait for the dispatcher to get done putting your butt on hold while they dispatch LE to your location if any cop car is nearby, once the attack is underway you are most like going to end up dead or fighting for you life in a hospital ICU, or the cops will have the coroner with the black plastic bag scooping up the dead body for an autopsy. You can never tell what a perps intentions are before he acts on them. Spray the poor bastard if he keeps coming, once hes blinded you can have your way with his feet, "see ya next fall, have a nice trip"  OC is better than getting the shit beat out of you by someone who is drunk, especially if you do not have the skills to fend off a 2 on 1 encounter and running into the woods will only get you lost or become disoriented. Besides if you are in any of the wilderness in North America cell phone reception is zero, this includes most of the desert south west. Where I live we dont have to flee or retreat to safety, if someone is in our space and presents a threat we have the right to deal with it there not retreat like pansies and then decide to engage when the engagement has already taken place prior to it. If your gonna get OC get some additional training like most everyone has mentioned, I know what OC tastes like cause I've had it come back in my face before when a slight breeze was present, its nasty stuff. |
I think you are confused. |
This |
| I wouldn't carry it because its not very effective. I've been maced before and it sucked, a lot. It also didn't stop me from beating the hell out of the guy who sprayed me. I've got friends who had the same thing happen. I'll leave the OC to the cops DC residents. |
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it seems the "scenario" is a bad/drunk guy at a bar making a threat or trying to beat you up/rob/whatever.................. I know MS like most states restrict the carry of weapons in establishments that SERVE alchol......The same as they do school, and govt buildings. So, yes, if you get caught with a gun in a bar, you won't be allowed to own a gun ever again. IE-felony conviction. Think about that. Also, if you are in a bar, and have had a drink.......you will pay the price in cival court if you fire that weapon. Cause now you have to prove that you were not drunk......Not that the truth matters there, cause you loose your integrity. Remember that "bar" is any place that serves boos........local Chille's, Applebees, concert hall, ball game, whatever. If you used a weapon in self defense, here, you would not be charged with the shooting.......however, we would HAVE to charge you with illegal CCW......in the bar situation. Across the street from the bar? Fire away! lol |