Posted: 5/23/2011 1:34:39 PM EDT
Ok my dog got messed up by a pit bull that the owner let get off the leash. 
Can I legally carry an extendable baton for self protection? |
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There was a recent thread in Team about good sprays for defense against dogs.......lemme see if I can find it........
eta: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=75&t=1187031 |
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No. It is considered a concealed weapon. Only if it is concealed though. If it is on a carrier on your belt, I have been led to believe that it is legal. However, I have never wanted to test that theory. Besides, for a dog, pepper spray might be better. Also, there is no doubt a maglite is legal. -shooter |
| Better option––––––––> http://proactiveshooters.com/sabre-pepper-spray-civilian-safety-awareness-program-csap/ |
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Asps and auto knives should be legal to everyone, not just LEO or EMTs. I've been meaning to take this up with VCDL for the next legislative suggestion. I suggest you all do the same. An Asp would have saved the day yesterday! I know carry pepper spray but that isn't as reliable. |
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Sorry to hear about your pup, I hope he heals up quick. As an owner of two Pit / American Bulldog mixes, it really pisses me off to hear stuff like this. My dogs are very friendly, but I don't cut 'em any slack just because I believe a responsible pit bull owner should respect his dog's limitations and not set them up for failure. Ironically, of all the negative dog encounters we've had with our boys, it's they who have been jumped by other dogs, mostly shepherd and shepherd mixes, and mine always back away. I'm not sure what it is about our dogs that shepherds just don't like.
I agree with the guys about the pepper spray too. While you'd certainly be within your rights to club the crap out of an attacking dog of any breed, an asp could do serious, permanent damage. Of course you don't/shouldn't care when you're being attacked, but most dogs aren't malicious, they're dogs. If anything, club the crap out of the owner.  The pepper spray is an effective, "non-permament" deterrent.
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I think it falls under "spring stick" in the" your screwed if you have one regs" Nope. § 18.2-308 (N) defines a "spring stick" as thus: " 'Spring stick' means a spring-loaded metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length." |
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I think it falls under "spring stick" in the" your screwed if you have one regs" Nope. § 18.2-308 (N) defines a "spring stick" as thus: " 'Spring stick' means a spring-loaded metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length." According to the dictionary the ASP is a blackjack which is prohibited to carry. Per 18.2-308 |
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I emailed the CA of Va Beach a few years ago about this(check the archives my thread might still be there). After translating his reply from legalese he said he considered ASP batons "spring sticks" and he would prosecute me if I were ever caught with one so I pretty much dropped it back then. As others have said. Pepper spray and a .45 are your best bet and are better options anyways. If the pepper spray does not stop an attack it's time to use deadly force. Edit: Isn't the VCDL working on expanding what a CHP covers? |
| What "dictionary"? I provided the relevant code section. That is the legal definition of a "spring stick" in Virginia... if it doesn't walk like a duck and quack like a duck, it's not a duck. And as far as the CA of VAB is concerned, whether he likes it or nor, he's bound the same law he enforces, so unless the ASP/expandable baton you carry has a spring (at a minimum) it is NOT a spring stick under Virginia law. |
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§ 18.2-308
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, blackjack, or (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain, or (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection Spring stick= means a spring-loaded ( The ASP baton has a spring as the primary device of retaining the unit in the closed or dis-armed position) metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length. Like Kind= Main Entry: blackjack Part of Speech: noun Synonyms: baton, billy, billy club , club, cudgel, mace, nightstick, rod, staff, truncheon, wand |
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§ 18.2-308 A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, blackjack, or (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain, or (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection Spring stick= means a spring-loaded ( The ASP baton has a spring as the primary device of retaining the unit in the closed or dis-armed position) metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length. Like Kind= Main Entry: blackjack Part of Speech: noun Synonyms: baton, billy, billy club , club, cudgel, mace, nightstick, rod, staff, truncheon, wand Quoting from Websters or any other standard dictionary does nothing positive for your argument. The only definition that matters is the definition contained in the law, and that definition specifically states that it must be "...activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon..." Perhaps you could post a close-up picture of the button on an ASP baton that makes it snap into position... |
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The "or weapon of like kind" is fairly specific in VA state rulings. For instance, a butterfly knife is considered 100% legal, and is not either a gravity knife or a switchblade, as per recent VA court rulings. That said, I am not aware of any recent case law regarding expandable batons and how they fit into this equation. For this reason, I am dubious about giving you some advice to "go ahead!" I too hope for the VCDL to get our CHPs turned into CWPs. Auto knives and expandable batons should be available to anybody.
But as to the original problem, and the advice at hand, I also second it, get some Sabre RED (which is some nasty stuff and works pretty well on two legged animals) and cart around your pistola. If the spray don't do it, several shots of lead will. If you're looking for something that isn't either of those, a walking stick or cane would suffice. Fully legal, carry those anywhere. |
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The "or weapon of like kind" is fairly specific in VA state rulings. For instance, a butterfly knife is considered 100% legal, and is not either a gravity knife or a switchblade, as per recent VA court rulings. That said, I am not aware of any recent case law regarding expandable batons and how they fit into this equation. For this reason, I am dubious about giving you some advice to "go ahead!" I too hope for the VCDL to get our CHPs turned into CWPs. Auto knives and expandable batons should be available to anybody. But as to the original problem, and the advice at hand, I also second it, get some Sabre RED (which is some nasty stuff and works pretty well on two legged animals) and cart around your pistola. If the spray don't do it, several shots of lead will. If you're looking for something that isn't either of those, a walking stick or cane would suffice. Fully legal, carry those anywhere. For real? I was always under the impression that they were a nono. If that is the case, time to get a newer benchmade with a pocket clip to complement my 42. I love me some balisongs and would love to carry one. |
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§ 18.2-308 A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, blackjack, or (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain, or (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection Spring stick= means a spring-loaded ( The ASP baton has a spring as the primary device of retaining the unit in the closed or dis-armed position) metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length. Like Kind= Main Entry: blackjack Part of Speech: noun Synonyms: baton, billy, billy club , club, cudgel, mace, nightstick, rod, staff, truncheon, wand Quoting from Websters or any other standard dictionary does nothing positive for your argument. The only definition that matters is the definition contained in the law, and that definition specifically states that it must be "...activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon..." Perhaps you could post a close-up picture of the button on an ASP baton that makes it snap into position... Ok then with out looking anywhere but the code section that's posted. Define "dirk" for me. I'll wait... Oh that's right you can't. When I was arrested of concealed weapon when I was young and stupid the DA of Fairfax city quoted from a Webster's dictionary at my hearing to help the court understand what he was saying. Guess what the judge convicted me off of the synonyms said within... So don't tell me it wouldn't happen, it can and does. Do me a favor and walk by a police officer with an ASP in your pocket and pull it out to play with in his line of sight. Let me know how that goes? |
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I find a stout walking stick to be very useful when walking the dogs.
No one questions it and I see quite a few of my neighbors using them when walking their dogs. I see one neighbor that always walks his dog carrying a 3/4" piece iv pvc pipe. I have no doubt that it is for unleashed dogs. I don't think an asp fits the definition of a spring stick, but, an arresting officer might think it was close enough to be considered of like kind. I would hate to spend tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers fees to prove I am right. One other point, IIRC the op is not eligible for a chp due to his residency status. |
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§ 18.2-308 A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, blackjack, or (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain, or (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection Spring stick= means a spring-loaded ( The ASP baton has a spring as the primary device of retaining the unit in the closed or dis-armed position) metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to several times its original length. Like Kind= Main Entry: blackjack Part of Speech: noun Synonyms: baton, billy, billy club , club, cudgel, mace, nightstick, rod, staff, truncheon, wand Quoting from Websters or any other standard dictionary does nothing positive for your argument. The only definition that matters is the definition contained in the law, and that definition specifically states that it must be "...activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon..." Perhaps you could post a close-up picture of the button on an ASP baton that makes it snap into position... I agree with some of the others in this post. Weapons of like kind in the statute is broad enough that you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon with an ASP. While you may ultimately beat the charge, this would only likely happen after you have gone through the expense of retaining a lawyer and probably with at least one court appearance. I have seen at least one person charged with carrying an ASP, although the charge was ultimately dropped as part of a disposition on the other charges. Another potential complicating factor in there is (if someone is fixed on prosecuting you or the judge wants to find a reason to convict) is the fact that I believe law enforcement has to go through a certification program to be able to carry an ASP. If a person were to just buy one and carry it, I can see the lack of training potentially coming up as another issue, especially if there is a serious injury, and someone claiming that an amount of force that exceeds what was necessary to end the situation was used and that should nullify a self defense claim. While again this may ultimately be defeated, I don't think that it is worth the risk. I also disagree with you about the dictionary definition being relevant. It is not unheard of for courts to look at a dictionary definition of a word to determine the meaning of the word in "common usage" to try and interpret a statute. If it were me, I think that it is possible to beat a charge for carrying a concealed weapon with an ASP, but I wouldn't want to be a test case for it, especially when there are other good options like pepper spray. |