Posted: 6/23/2007 9:24:53 AM EDT
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We have one of the better instructors in the country willing to come to our own backyard for VERY reasonable pricing. Yet for all the big talking that goes on (whenever he does come down) we cannot even fill a class. The last few classes that Sully had down here were just a couple of people. Sully is offering a womens handgun class in July and there is a total of 1 (ONE!!!!) person signed up for it (my lovely wife). Sully is offering tactical handgun class down in this neck of the woods. Guess what the attendance is??? I have not signed up yet but am going to as soon as I get my next paycheck. I know that it is summer time and things get a little busy but if we don't have classes during the summer people do not want to attend classes during the winter because it is too cold. Do we want Sully to stop scheduling classes down here?? We are taking up his valuable summer weekends for classes that are not even filled. It does not pay for him to drive down and hold a one day class for 5 people (he does not even make expenses). I personally would not blame Sully if he said screw it I am not training down there anymore. If those guys don't want me to come down and train them then those that do want the training can make the drive up. We have been trying to make a go of Driftless for a couple of years now and attendance just keeps getting lower and lower (range costs stay the same or go up tho). I for one am very grateful that Sully is willing to put up with us and help us out in anyway he can, but this has to be a 2 way street. Lately it has been all one way with no reciprocation at all. [/rant] |
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Here's my observation... I think it's not just Greg.. I have noticed other Instructors are seeing a lower attendance. Pat had a class in MI that was cancelled due to not enough students. 4 yrs ago his classes filled up and had a waiting list and if you snoozed a few days after the class was announced... you were SOL. He now has quite a few open enrollment classes that still have openings only a few weeks before the course. I think several factors are Price of Ammo (especially 5.56MM ) has put a big hurt on classes. I know it has cut down my practice quite abit. Gas prices over $3 make the cost of travel (I cancelled my trip to MI because of it along with hotel). I am with you... I would hate to see us lose out on having Greg come to Drift-less.....I enjoy his classes immensely. I always learn something, and walk away a better shoot for it. Hell.. I would like to come down to Racine and spend a day with Photoman and FMD and Rouge and the boys and get in a little practice. But it cost me precious ammo and $40 in gas just for that....The price of everything goes up... except all of our paychecks....... |
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My wife just attended Sully's Women's Handgun 1 in Princeton. It was worth the 4 hour drive each way, plus hotel & meals. You know why? Because how well she knows how to shoot might save her life someday. And Sully is a great instructor. I recommend him so highly that he's the one I trust to train my wife. Yeah, stuff is expensive. But, really, what's good training worth? Hell, I plan to sell off a few guns in the next couple of weeks to pay for training. A few less guns is fine...but insufficient training or practice is expensive. |
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What I would do is talk to him and let him know how much you appreciate what he is doing, and let him know that you (at least) will take courses whenever you can afford it. Somehow work into the conversation the fact that if he needs to quit having these courses you will be disappointed, but will understand. If he is teaching something to people who want to learn, and appreciate what is being taught, he may continue doing so until until he absolutely can't do it any longer. However, if noone gives a rat's you-know-what, he will definitely stop teaching the classes. |
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Nytmayr: I understand what you are saying but here is the truth of the situation. Sully has been having classes here for a couple of years. He thinks of training for gunfighting like karate. You don't expect to take a class or two of karate and expect to master it. Why would you expect to master gunfighting after taking one or two classes? He has been losing money with every class he teaches here lately because of poor attendance (bottom line he is running a buisness), how much longer can a buisness lose money and still stay afloat. Sully so far has been doing this because he truly likes to teach (and it shows in his classes) and because he knows that for the most part those of us in WI cannot afford to go all the way up to his home range to take a class. I feel about classes pretty much the same way. Practice and continuing to learn is key. I guess it just irks me that some people will take one class (or even none at all) and say that they know all they need to know to survive a gunfight. I hear some people say that they want him to bring the "higher speed" classes to WI but if the people are not going to put in the time and effort to really learn the basics, when he steps up the "speed" people will forget the basics and someone will get muzzleswept (or much worse). Example: I took handgun 1 from DE years ago (before he came to WI to teach), I figured that ok I learned how to shoot a handgun why do I need to take more classes to teach me something Ialready know. When Sully came to WI I started to take classes again (as regularly as I could afford) and found out that I had relearned old habits without even knowing I did so. My shooting both with handgun and with carbine has improved tremendusly since I started to attend class regularly. I am not saying everyone who does not take a class cannot shoot, far from it, but that you will shoot much better after taking classes. I wish that I could in some way get thru to people so they don't have to go thru the big waste of time like I did ( sorry frustration talking here) Now I know that cash is a big concern for most around here. It is for me as well. But I see people that say they cannot afford to take a class and then 1 moth later post a thread of how they just bought this gun or that gun. I know peoples prioritys are different but if you learn to shoot well you are making a investment in not only yourself but also in your family's safety. |
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I would just like to add a bit to the thread here. I have become more interested in firearms and self defense over the past few years. I always thought I "knew" how to shoot. I took LFI in '05- my first real instruction in firearms. It was then that I realized I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. I have decided that I am going to try and make it to at least 1 class a year to try and improve myself (took a DE class last year and plan on another this year). With work and family (third kid due end of summer) I can only make it to the range a handful of times a year; but gosh darn it, if there ever comes a time I need these skills, I hope I had enough training for the situation. But, when you get past all the training, tactics, pile of empty brass at your feet, you realize that these classes are a lot of fun! |
Defensive Edge is an Industry Partner on this site. Look in the Industry forum. |
All the info you need on classes in Wisconsin can be found In This Thread |
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DE webpage My apologies for including the webpage. I am used to the normal (if you can call them normal that is) crowd and they all know how to sign up for DE classes. IM me if you have any questions. |
There are a lo of people in the same boat. Don't let your skills atrophy though - practice. Dry fire alone isn't enough, but it sure helps. |
I noted these cancellations when I tried to register for the Tactical Pistol class last night. I shouldn't have waited until now, granted, but I sold a rifle to help pay the cost of tuition and waited until I had money in hand. If people don't attend the courses, how long will they be offered? The next DE class is Precision Rifle in September. I've attended this and the instructor is excellent, but I sold off my precision upper because I don't have a need for it (and already took the course once). I hope someone can take advantage of this course. |
Yea to bad about the tac handgun class getting canceled (for now).  The sidekick and I are planning on attending the precision rifle class (just got my new scope in for the Tikka).  I hope there is enough interest in this class for it to go thru. We are heading up to BC's this weekend to try out some different ammo (and let the daughter play with her new cricket) and get our stuff wired tight for the class.Heck even if you are mainly a hunter who would not like a class that teaches you how to be a better marksman with your deer rifle. |
| How do you ever get a reply from Defensive Edge. I have sent 3 e-mails to them for additional info on some of the classes offered in Wisconsin and never received a reply. I am interested in the Precision Rifle class and have already sent 2 e-mails for more info and not gotten any reply. That lack of customer service will probably be the reason I will not be attending any classes. |
Well guys, I was all signed up for tact. pistol and it got cancelled on me. I don't blame Sully or any of the DE folks. I guess it boils down to what has been previously mentioned. This was my one chance for a class this year (due to work, 3rd kid due later in summer, etc.) but now I'll have to wait til next year . |
1) Which email are you using? They've had some signifigant website changes in the last few months, and you may be working with a non-exsistant or no longer active email address. 2) How long ago did you send the emails, and how long are we talking about in between? Defensive Edge is a fairly small company, and Sully is a full-time cop when he's not on the road teaching classes. I've never had more than about 48 hours go by after trying to contact them via email or phone with a response. Sally (Mrs. Sullivan and chief administrator over at DETC) is very good about getting back to folks as well.
I hear you. AnnieO and PHQ were going to do the Women's handgun, which we (the Wisconsin HTF) have been waiting for for a LONG time. There was incredible interest in it... right up until it came time to sign up for class.
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I would be hitting some of these classes for sure, but there are two factors at play for me.....first off the band is taking off so quite a few weekends are booked. On top of that, I got married in December, and the new wife appreciates it when the very few open weekends I have, I spend with her. Finally, ammo prices are ridiculous. I am set up to handload, but I need to get organized and that takes time too. Basically, working full time 50-60 hours a week, and then part time every Wednesday, some Fridays and two out of four Saturday nights has me in a big time crunch. I just checked to see my availability for the 22nd/23rd Precision Rifle. I'm booked. :-( |
What do have going on Oct 20-21st may be something comming up that weekend.(hint,hint  )
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I would love to try and attend more of Sully's classes, however my lack of time lately has been the real problem. I took my first classes this last year (cold weather carbine & handgun) to see how I would like it. I LOVED it! I want to do a tact. handgun & carbine, but with a new house and a BUSY schedule it is VERY difficult. Not to mention the 2 hr drive kinda sux. What is DE doing to bring in new shooters? WHat sort of advertising/promotion are they doing? |
You mean besides the banner ads on the internet's largest gun board (here), sponsorship at others (Ar15armory), ads and reviews in S.W.A.T. magazine, and probably the best person to person word-of-mouth advertising in the industry (so much so that the detractors in MN call it the "Church of Sully")?
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Mrs. Glenn_r was going to attend as well...but the one offered in Princeton a couple weeks earlier allowed us to have a Minneapolis vacation. I thought the class went very well, and I'm thrilled she attended.
Geez, and I thought I was pimping these classes on the HTF as heavily as I could without getting annoying. I'm not sure what else DE could do to promote these. As FMD pointed out, they're being marketed to likely attendees already. 
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It's not always an issue of marketing as it is location. Granted I prefer the classes at driftless becuase there is a bit more "freedom" there to do some stuff. But not everyone is willing to make that drive if they are more than 2.5-3hrs out. Thats their choice of course. We did have some stuff schedualed in Racine for this year but the dates got pulled on me due mainly to politics. We're working to fix that and get some classes back down here though. I think that may help a bit as it's easier for someone from the Chicago area to justify the trip to Racine a bit easier then it is to justify the trip to Driftless. I'd have been at a lot more classes this year but not working for like 6 months means I'm playing catch up and going to classes had to be pushed down the list of things I could do. That and with rising ammo and gas costs well it makes it had for me to do anything other than work. Hell I used to be at the range two-thrtee days a week, now I'm lucky if I make it to my two days a month with the rest of the crew to practice. In the end things will get better though and I think attendance at classes will start to go back up. It's just one of those down cycles right now. |
What is this 'ammo' of which you speak? Tommy's looking long and hard at either a 9mm upper or a .22 conversion kit. |
Tommy about ammo, IM on the way |
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There is no one more disappointed than me, but I saw this as inevitable with the way things were going the last year. In the traditional Martial Arts paradigm there's no one to blame but the teacher, it's not the students' fault. First off, an apology to all the alumni out there. It's a bit personal but I am on the 'outs' with Sully. He's been paying the range insurance for the last couple of years and I have opened my place to his exclusive use. I want to bring in other teachers to my range, so I do not feel comfortable accepting insurance money from Sully anymore. From a business pov it would be better for Sully to spend the $1000 on an RCLRC membership and teach there, which I have brought up in conversation more than once. The NRA range insurance is pretty much useless to me, it doesn't cover force on force, airsoft or integrating any combatives. The whole idea of me hosting no-fun shoots was a grey area because according to the opinion of more than one shark I was instructing or would be had I started running them the way I want. I stopped doing training shoots and asked Sully repeatedly to send down some of the "senior alumni" to run alumni training sessions. I have some requests for insurance quotes out but I don't plan on buying untill I have some specific improvements completed, however long that takes. The oxen is slow, but the cart is patient. The no-fun shoots will return, 'outlaw' competition will be re-defined. For those that don't read the training forums I recently attended the Tactical Response instructor development course and I'm on tap for LMS defense instructor development next year and thier Force on Force and FoF instructor courses. My training regimen includes firearms instructor development but I am going to focus on teaching (and learning to teach) mindset not shooting skills. I'm doing these courses so that I can provide a more productive and safer practice sessions, not to get a job with Yeager or Sully. I've got too many skeletons in my closet for a straight job, I have to stand on my own merits. Things are going to get fun, but first there is work to do. I need some time to square away my finances and find some way to fund two knee scopings. I have had offers of front money to fund range improvements in the past but I have refused them because of strings attached. I'd rather mortgage out to the bank and keep control. DRC will be back but it is a low priority when I have my future hanging. As far as the subject of Irv's post. I was thinking that at least some of the folks that took the $50 HG1 course would be primed for taking handgun 1/2. People who are serious about training spend the money, drive the miles, pay their dues by practicing, most make sacrifices. I scratch to get the money, borrow and scratch to pay it back. Training has a high priority in my lifestyle, firearms are a bit part of that and by far the most expensive. It's not a hard to to convince my better half to spend money on training but I can only imagine how hard it can be for some, I've witnessed some arguments about alot less in my lifetime. I was setup to do less than lethal instructor course this month and that class was cancelled for lack of interest. I spent the money on tires for Cleen's truck, that's how the money disappears. The most important aspect of providing a professional service is the schedule. Who has $3-400 for tuition, plus travel and ammo expenses etc on 2 months notice? People need time to plan. Obviously the reduced price of Sully's classes make it easier but it is still alot of money. I would like to have my summer planned out by Feb. or March. I travel to TN to train twice a year and the only way I can pull it off it is to commit 6 months in advance. If you look at the classes that are filled that's how they work. Curriculum is another factor, not everyone has the same training philosophy, gunfighting is not karate. There are an abundant number of alumni from different schools that want to be pushed. That's what advanced classes are about, not about speed, it's as much about developing the training mindset than technique or skills. Once you lose those students who strive to attain a higher level of skill they seldom come back. There are also people like me who have the Bruce Lee "Absorb what is usefull" philosophy. Anyone can pick up a gun and be lethal, not many people train (correct practice) or even think about training. The best way to learn is to push yourself beyond your experience level. Get out and train with as many teachers as you can. The more people I train with the more insight I get on my flaws. Absorb What is Useful by Sifu Dan Inosanto "Learning what is useful in the martial arts is not contained within the four walls of a dojo. dojang, gwoon, studio or academy. Learning and absorbing usable knowledge is not located within the structure of your style or system, whether it is Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Indonesian, Okinawan, Burmese, Filipino, French or whatever. Learning comes from all your contacts, experiences and all facets of your life. The assimilation of learning is called knowledge and the proper use of knowledge is called wisdom..." http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html/articles/freevoice/absorb.htm [ /quote] Stan |
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I took the HG1 offered by Sully, and it was the BEST thing I have ever done in my life, next to losing 60 pounds already :) - I went into that course thinking that I was a badass because I owned an AR15 w/ a tac light, aimpoint and vert grip. I mean just ask the guys here, before I took that course all of my posts on here were from an ignorant/arrogant, punkass 18 year old. (maybe they still are? lol) After the course, I realized that I didn't know shit about guns, shooting, training, mindset and the legal aspects of it. My shooting increased 50x from 8 hours of teaching from Sully. I also learned alot about concealed carry, the legal ramifications of brandishing and deadly force. It left me yearning for more. I am still trying to make it to another class, I really want to take Tactical Handgun next. Only reason I have not taken it yet is because I am going to college, I work a min wage job, and back in winter I tore my MCL in my knee which left me jobless for 3-4 months, and lots of bills. I am still trying to pay them back. Not to mention I just put a clutch in my car which cost $850 :( But, that is no excuse. I still go to the range when I can and dry fire alot. Anyways... When I took HG1, me and my Dad drove almost 5 hours to there, which I believe we had the longest trip over anyone there. We were up at 2am, left by 3am, and arrived just at 8. We got home about 11ish I believe. It was well worth the tuition, gas (little over $100), ammo, and food. It was probably the worst day ever, we trained in rain, mud, piles of brass on an incline, and the weather was just allaround shitty. Rainy/cold.... but I am glad I took it. I am by no means an expert but I know 50x more than I did. I suggest EVERYONE take Sullys classes. Top notch instructor. |
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Something else to keep in mind is that not all classes apply to everyone. I don't own an AR15 so the armorer classes and carbine classes would not fit me. The only bolt guns I have are unscoped WWII surplus so I am reluctant to take a precision or urban rifle course. I also don't own a Glock, so I have zero interest in the armorer class. Heck, I don't even have a shotgun. I DO, however, really want to take another handgun class. I took Handgun One last fall. |
Got a carbine? Any carbine? While most tend to be more geared to the AR you don't have to have one to take a carbine class. |
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Oh, I hear ya. But, I don't even have a carbine. I've thought of getting a Mosin-Nagant carbine but have not done so. My rifles are a Springfield '03, a Gewehr Mauser from WWI, and a Marlin .22. I'm tempted to try a class with the Springfield but .30-'06 ammo is pricey and my shoulder would be bruised for the next two weeks. |
If you'd like to take a carbine class, I'd be glad to loan you an AR. |