[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bad situation (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/24/2009 9:05:47 PM EDT
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I was put in a bad situation tonight. I went out to a bar with a couple of friends. I was carrying my SOG Trident, as always and my newly purchased Spyderco Street Beat. I just got this knife and I have been carrying it as primary knife considering it is for self defense only. I carry it on my support side horizontal on my belt. I am tall as some of you know and my shirts don't always cover my belt line because it is difficult to but shirts when I am nearly 6'5" in the stores. We were all celebrating Octoberfest at a German restaurant, not in the best part of town. This particular bar/restaurant is not in the greatest part of WNY.
A person I never met was there and after several beers she didn't think I was the height I was and asked me to stand up next to her. I did. The problem? My street beat was showing. She pulled it out of its sheath and was asking why the fuck I would carry this and started bantering me with sheeple bullshit. I asked her kindly to please return my knife because it is razor sharp and I don't want anyone to get hurt. She returned the knife then the inevitable conversation started. She said I should call the cops if I get in trouble and not to defend myself. I told her the saying "When seconds count police are minutes away." She began her liberal banter and I got up and thanked everyone for a good night and left. I am completely outraged because she called me weird and paranoid to which I am completely offended. Anyone ever have a situation like this? Is this my fault? I don't have a full carry permit nor would I have carried in a situation where I have been drinking. I feel like it is my fault because I had my knife exposed and I am second thinking carrying it. ETA: Grammar |
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First things first...........who gives a flying shit what some random lib-tard who you don't even personally know, thinks about you, and your knife and your self-defense logic?
Secondly.......of you're carrying a knife concealed, it would be best to dress around it, so it stays concealed, IMO. I understand the fact that you're above average in height, but that's just something you're going to have to deal with. Snag up some shirts from a local "Big-n-Tall" or something maybe? I worked with a guy who is 6'9". I'm not sure where he shopped, but I do know he carried a knife and I never saw it unless he brought it out. Then again, it might have just been in his pocket, I'm not sure. I don't understand the "is it my fault?" question. Is it your fault your knife was showing? Well......to be blunt, yes. It's not anyone elses fault. Is it your fault that some dumb ass got all bent out of shape at the sight of a knife? Nope. You can't fix "stupid". IMO, instead of second guessing carrying.......make an effort to get some shirts that will keep your knife concealed on your belt line. You're 6'5". That's pretty tall, but not freak-show tall, where you need to custom order everyday clothing. On a side note.......I'm a pretty nice, laid back guy, who would never put his hands on a woman in a malicious manner........but if some random chick I don't know reached for my knife on my belt, I would grab her wrist quick fast, and not think twice about the bruising/pain she might endure. I don't like people I don't know, inside my "personal space". Also, +1 on the "When seconds count, police are only minutes away" quote. I've used that many times when speaking to retards those who count on LEO to be everywhere at anytime for them. None of them ever had a rebuttal to it. |
| Honestly I don't care if my knife is concealed or not, I is not law where I live to carry it concealed. I was just outraged that she had the balls to pull it out of the sheath. I totally did not see it coming and just wanted to make sure she wasn;t dumb enough to cut herself with it. I didn't want to explain to LEO why I was carrying it. I haven't had an issue with this knife yet. It isnt like the whole knife was showing, it was just the handle. She is a cunt and I hope I never see her again. The other people who I knew at the table were also pretty pissed off and when I started to get a little heated about the whole thing stepped in, thats where I excused myself and left. I really hope I never see her again in my whole life. |
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Well I have a full carry permit, and I have carried plenty of times in bars...NO, not while drinking...but it IS tough to say the least, even when sober. One time a girlfriend of mine was all over me, and quite quickly figured out that I had more than a banana in my pocket (a G19 IWB at 4oclock with 16 rounds of 9mm JHP). The usual liberal BS followed, and the obvious liberal misinformed speech about how it wasn't necessary and how it was "illegal."
Another time I carried in a bar (no, not while drinking), another girlfriend of mine eventually felt the bulge on my waist at 4oclock (it's a little tough to hide it when you are bumping into people all night long in a crowded bar). She, on the other hand, thought it was a great idea to carry, and actually thought it was really sexy (which I wasn't necessarily going for, but hey, it worked out). Yes...it worked out...quite well. Moral of the story...it is best to keep it CONCEALED and secret as best as possible. Usually, nobody knows I carry...sometimes, they find out unexpectedly. Sometimes they are retarded sheeple. And sometimes, they get turned on, and they love you all night long. |
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Honestly I don't care if my knife is concealed or not, I is not law where I live to carry it concealed. Well then you're most likely going to have to deal with retards who disapprove of your choice to carry. If you want to avoid situations where someone might bitch at you for your choice in carrying, or grab it like the dumb-ass already did.......keep it concealed. Simple. |
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It is a restaurant we were seated in the restaurant area and I am fortunate it was at the end of the night when there were only us in the back. 95% of the time the knife is concealed but because I was not wearing my coat and had been sitting down and got up the knife was exposed. The reason she was able to grab the knife is because she was very close. In a self defense situation I would have had the knife drawn if the person was within extreme close quarters.
My plan is too continue doing what I have been doing and keep it concealed as best as possible, and avoid her dumb ass if at all necessary. |
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Why were you carrying both weapons? If you are trying to change from a clip knife to a fighting knife then just leave the clip at home or vise versa. I would also address where you carry if she could get at it that quickly. Maybe Weak side cross draw. This would leave a blocking hand free to keep hands off YOUR stuff(maybe your strong side was busy holding a beer). Also leaves the handle in front so you can see the invading hands...I get jumpy when hands dart anywhere near my midsection.
I only carry a Kershaw spring assisted clip knife right on my strong side pocket...so the above is just my opinion. I think you handled the situation well, tried to inform her of you personal carry policies and then removed yourself from the situation. I would have probably stuck around with my friends though. Especially if they were on your side, maybe she would have gotten the hint...then again she's a libtard for a reason. |
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Quoted: My plan is too continue doing what I have been doing and keep it concealed as best as possible, and avoid her dumb ass if at all necessary. Sit down for a few minutes with a criminal defense attorney and have him explain the difference between carrying a utility pocket knife (a tool) like your SOG folder and carrying a concealed Spyderco Street Beat. |
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My plan is too continue doing what I have been doing and keep itconcealed as best as possible, and avoid her dumb ass if at allnecessary. Sit down for a few minutes with a criminal defense attorneyand have him explain the difference between carrying a utility pocketknife (a tool) like your SOG folder and carrying a concealed Spyderco Street Beat. For those of us that do not carry this knife, or understand how the law applies...could you provide cliff notes on the legality of carrying this knife? Thanks! /ml |
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My plan is too continue doing what I have been doing and keep itconcealed as best as possible, and avoid her dumb ass if at allnecessary. Sit down for a few minutes with a criminal defense attorneyand have him explain the difference between carrying a utility pocketknife (a tool) like your SOG folder and carrying a concealed Spyderco Street Beat. For those of us that do not carry this knife, or understand how the law applies...could you provide cliff notes on the legality of carrying this knife? Thanks! /ml I think it boils down to just having a pocket knife that "could" be used as defense, and carrying a "fighting" or fixed blade knife out walking the dog; or in this case at a local establishment. There is no law against it...that's why he said just sit down and talk it out with a defense attorney. |
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The crux that's being avoided here is not of the knife itself, it's the verbal confrontation: When a "stranger" berates you in the company of friends over your choices of self protection.
There are several emotions to deal with an likely some adrenalin being dumped, there is: Surprise, shock/disbelief, fear, embarrassment, anger, and ultimately no personal satisfaction in defense of your actions. You were essentially shamed in an undeserving manor by someone entitled to her opinion, but not to the point of making a spectacle of herself, not to mention "she" now has the satisfaction of having "won" because you left. Most of us do not, like of perform well when blind sided in such a situation: put yourself in the same situation, maybe change it to your CCW. We train to defend ourselves physically and hopefully psychologically after the event. This same incident could have been the challenge of anyone from another patron, bouncer, PD, etc. |
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Quoted: I think it boils down to just having a pocket knife that "could" be used as defense, and carrying a "fighting" or fixed blade knife out walking the dog; or in this case at a local establishment. There is no law against it...that's why he said just sit down and talk it out with a defense attorney. Zactly. Matter of Jamie D., 59 NY2d 589 (1983). Whether a "knife" is a "dangerous" knife may be determined on the basis of three alternative considerations: one, its own characteristics which show that it is primarily intended for use as a weapon; second, a modification, which converts what would otherwise be a utensil into a weapon; and third, the circumstances of the possession which may reveal that the possessor considers it a weapon and not a utilitarian tool. http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/ad3/Decisions/2007/100065.pdf Defendant's argument that his conviction for criminal possession of a weapon is not supported by legally sufficient evidence is dependent on acceptance of his argument that his knife was not a "dangerous knife" within the meaning of the statute (see Penal Law ยง 265.01 [2]). However, a knife "may be considered a 'dangerous knife' within the meaning of Penal Law ยง 265.01 (2) when the circumstances of its possession, including the behavior of its possessor, demonstrate that the possessor himself considered it a weapon, even if the knife might not otherwise be defined as a 'dangerous knife' by reason of its inherent characteristics" (Matter of Sean R., 33 AD3d 925, 926 [2006]; see Matter of Jamie D., 59 NY2d 589, 591 [1983]). Moreover, defendant's mere possession of the knife, while displaying it in an effort to instill fear, was itself presumptive evidence of his intent to use it unlawfully (see Matter of Sean R., supra at 926; Matter of Jesse QQ., 243 AD2d 788, 789 [1997], lv denied 91 NY2d 804 [1997]). The testimony of the male victim that defendant gave him the choice of leaving or being killed, while he stood over him with the knife in his hand, amply supports the jury's determination. |
| Its the asinine idea that in defense there is a "stick" and a "pointy stick"...better to do what you can with a regular stick and say its all you could get. Rather than carrying around a sharpened toothbrush and say, "that's what I feel most comfortable with as protection"... |
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Its the asinine idea that in defense there is a "stick" and a "pointy stick"...better to do what you can with a regular stick and say its all you could get. Rather than carrying around a sharpened toothbrush and say, "that's what I feel most comfortable with as protection"... Welcome to the reality of New York State law. 
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For many many years I carried a Benchmade River Rescue on my belt, out in the open. I used it all day long at work. I don't think anyone ever made much fuss about me carrying a sheath knife on my belt in the open in public, but every once in a while someone would question me about. (I work in a super zero tolerance environment). When they did I would pull it out and stab myself in the arm with it.  Which of course did nothing due to the sheep's foot blade.
I'd always get the same "Oh... okay" response. 
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I love this state
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I'll weigh in for what it's worth.
Concealed is concealed, and that obviously wasn't concealed. Beyond that, if someone did decide to call the cops, there is a good chance BPD would have been nice enough to give you a look at the inside of the holding center. I carry a SOG Flash II as my EDC. I do so primarily because I can deploy it quickly, but more importantly, it sits flush with you pocket so the only thing showing is the clip, which is pretty small when compared to other brands. I'm not lecturing you, as I know you already know this, but when you, or I, make the conscious decision to go to a bar and drink socially, you are putting yourself at some risk simply because even if you use a weapon in a self defense situation, you are still under the influence of alcohol and that will factor into whatever the end result is. Personally, I don't think I would carry a large fixed blade on my person when drinking at a bar. Stick with the pocket knife, or don't go drinking in bad neighborhoods of B-Lo. Definitely do not let someone grab your knife from you. I understand where you are coming from though as far as being annoyed and pissed of after being berated by some liberal female. It sucks, but what can you do. Most people out there don't think like you our I. Don't let it get to you, remember why you do what you do, and get back into the right mind set. Don't sweat it man, learn from the experience and change your tactics and habits accordingly. Anything else, feel free to IM me. |
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I don't have a full carry permit.
Is there a reason why you don't have a CCW pistol permit? Probably because he lives in Erie County which like many gay libtard NY counties places restrictions on the average guy's permit. He also probably chose not to take the chance and operate in the gray areas of those restrictions, especially in a bar. |
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next time it's SOG Trident only. The street beat will only be used in occasions where I will be wearing a jacket/sweatshirt.
As far as a CCW I do not have a permit. According to Erie county I did not demonstrate good cause for a full CCW. I would never carry a firearm in that situation where there was alcohol involved. This story as FP said was more about the situation than me carrying a knife. |
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and this is illegal how? Arguably it could be a "dangerous knife" under the penal law. See rkbar15's post. Anyway the issue of legality and being disarmed by some girl aside, I don't think getting into a debate with some girl in a bar over carrying a knife for self defense is a good idea. Are you really going to convince the average 20ish barflly girl that people should be wandering around with scary knives? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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It really is hard to think on your feet when someone takes a surprise hostile action on you:
Remember Fry's drills on someone approaching with menacing intent: That's far enough. STOP RIGHT THERE! GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME! Being Gentlemen (and both you and your Brother are) we generally do not take hostile actions against Women or in the company of friends, however a bit of drill practice involving a loud "get the fuck away from me psycho bitch" might turn the tables, after all the best defence is a good offence. |
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Patty, you did nothing wrong IMO other than not dress appropriatley for the tools you decided to EDC that night. Hitting on and talking to bitches aside, this kind of thing happens to those of us who have certain beliefs which vary or differ from the beliefs of others. She is entitled to her opinion but stepped over the line when she layed hands on your EDC knife and took it. This happened because of your attire. Next time, before going out consider what and how your dressed and remember this situation. A lot of people can learn from this.
RE Legality of carrying a knife: fixed blade vs folder. Is a knife, any knife, considered a lethal force tool just like a gun? Yes or No? You usually cannot cut someone just a little if you decide to utilize a knife in defense of your life just like you cannot shoot someone a little. Does a fixed blade knife look more "menacing" and can it be considered by a defense attornies MORE of a weapon than the folder in your pocket? Sure, but if I adhere to that logic of being PC with the personal defense tools I choose to carry (note, I am not advocating carrying anything illegal) then why carry a handgun or anything at all? We all know that a good prosecutor can make the sharpie pen I stab some dude in the eye with while defending myself look like a "menacing, deadly weapon". As many here know, it comes down to the circumstances related to the incident your actions with said tool the defense attorney has to defend. How well one can articulate their actions after the given incident. Many here know I am a huge advocate of carrying a small fixed blade 2-3 inch blade for personal defense purposes over a folding knife for various reasons. How is that more deadly or considered more weapon-like than carrying a loaded firearm? Perspective is an amazing thing and we all have different perspectives on this subject matter. I know that I can more readily access and defend myself with that small fixed blade than I can with my folder or perhaps even my gun at contact and extreme close quarter distances. Because of this I choose to carry that small fixed blade. Could that decision land me in jail if I do something stupid? Sure, but so could a whole lot of other stupid decisions I make like texting while driving etc. It is interesting how people will jump on someone about a fixed blade knife but be cool that you can carry a .45 with 8 rounds in the gun and an extra mag on your belt. Most people are far more scared of knives than guns it seems but both will kill you just as dead. Just my take, sorry for the ramble.. |
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Patty, you did nothing wrong IMO other than not dress appropriatley for the tools you decided to EDC that night. Hitting on and talking to bitches aside, this kind of thing happens to those of us who have certain beliefs which vary or differ from the beliefs of others. She is entitled to her opinion but stepped over the line when she layed hands on your EDC knife and took it. This happened because of your attire. Next time, before going out consider what and how your dressed and remember this situation. A lot of people can learn from this. RE Legality of carrying a knife: fixed blade vs folder. Is a knife, any knife, considered a lethal force tool just like a gun? Yes or No? You usually cannot cut someone just a little if you decide to utilize a knife in defense of your life just like you cannot shoot someone a little. Does a fixed blade knife look more "menacing" and can it be considered by a defense attornies MORE of a weapon than the folder in your pocket? Sure, but if I adhere to that logic of being PC with the personal defense tools I choose to carry (note, I am not advocating carrying anything illegal) then why carry a handgun or anything at all? We all know that a good prosecutor can make the sharpie pen I stab some dude in the eye with while defending myself look like a "menacing, deadly weapon". As many here know, it comes down to the circumstances related to the incident your actions with said tool the defense attorney has to defend. How well one can articulate their actions after the given incident. Many here know I am a huge advocate of carrying a small fixed blade 2-3 inch blade for personal defense purposes over a folding knife for various reasons. How is that more deadly or considered more weapon-like than carrying a loaded firearm? Perspective is an amazing thing and we all have different perspectives on this subject matter. I know that I can more readily access and defend myself with that small fixed blade than I can with my folder or perhaps even my gun at contact and extreme close quarter distances. Because of this I choose to carry that small fixed blade. Could that decision land me in jail if I do something stupid? Sure, but so could a whole lot of other stupid decisions I make like texting while driving etc. It is interesting how people will jump on someone about a fixed blade knife but be cool that you can carry a .45 with 8 rounds in the gun and an extra mag on your belt. Most people are far more scared of knives than guns it seems but both will kill you just as dead. Just my take, sorry for the ramble.. I think everyone should read what you just wrote twice. |
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Patty, you did nothing wrong IMO other than not dress appropriatley for the tools you decided to EDC that night. Hitting on and talking to bitches aside, this kind of thing happens to those of us who have certain beliefs which vary or differ from the beliefs of others. She is entitled to her opinion but stepped over the line when she layed hands on your EDC knife and took it. This happened because of your attire. Next time, before going out consider what and how your dressed and remember this situation. A lot of people can learn from this. RE Legality of carrying a knife: fixed blade vs folder. Is a knife, any knife, considered a lethal force tool just like a gun? Yes or No? You usually cannot cut someone just a little if you decide to utilize a knife in defense of your life just like you cannot shoot someone a little. Does a fixed blade knife look more "menacing" and can it be considered by a defense attornies MORE of a weapon than the folder in your pocket? Sure, but if I adhere to that logic of being PC with the personal defense tools I choose to carry (note, I am not advocating carrying anything illegal) then why carry a handgun or anything at all? We all know that a good prosecutor can make the sharpie pen I stab some dude in the eye with while defending myself look like a "menacing, deadly weapon". As many here know, it comes down to the circumstances related to the incident your actions with said tool the defense attorney has to defend. How well one can articulate their actions after the given incident. Many here know I am a huge advocate of carrying a small fixed blade 2-3 inch blade for personal defense purposes over a folding knife for various reasons. How is that more deadly or considered more weapon-like than carrying a loaded firearm? Perspective is an amazing thing and we all have different perspectives on this subject matter. I know that I can more readily access and defend myself with that small fixed blade than I can with my folder or perhaps even my gun at contact and extreme close quarter distances. Because of this I choose to carry that small fixed blade. Could that decision land me in jail if I do something stupid? Sure, but so could a whole lot of other stupid decisions I make like texting while driving etc. It is interesting how people will jump on someone about a fixed blade knife but be cool that you can carry a .45 with 8 rounds in the gun and an extra mag on your belt. Most people are far more scared of knives than guns it seems but both will kill you just as dead. Just my take, sorry for the ramble.. EXCELLENT post. |
| I had a sheeple gasp in alarm when I pulled the massive 2 1/2 inch blade on my Swiss Army Knife. She actually said "You carry a a a knife" She probably would have stroked out if she saw the Glock under my shirt. Its all a result of the wussification of America. I can't give my son a SAK because I'm afraid he'll accidentally take it to school and be expelled for carrying a "Weapon". |
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Carrying a licensed/registered concealed .45 handgun is not a criminal offense. Defending you life (or as otherwise permitted by PL Article 35) by using DPF in compliance with Article 35 is not a criminal act. Possessing a dangerous knife (as determined by a Judge or jury) is a criminal offense in NY. Even a box cutter has been determined to be a dangerous knife based on the criteria I listed on page 1 of this thread. Like I said in numerous threads you should discuss this with your personal attorney who is the only one who can give you legal advice on this subject or any other related subject posted on ARFCOM. As always you're on your own and YMMV. You'll be the one sitting with Bubba in the holding cell at the county jail crying for your Mommy not me.  ยง 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when: .................... (2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or .................... 4. The possession by any person of the substance as specified in section 265.04 is presumptive evidence of possessing such substance with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person or property of another if such person is not licensed or otherwise authorized to possess such substance. The possession by any person of any dagger, dirk, stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent to use the same unlawfully against another. |
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I think what everyone is overlooking here is that as soon as she pulled your knife out, what you should have done is jump back, fix a look of terror on your face, and scream "She's got a knife!"
Most of the people in the bar won't remember that she got it from you. Then you can defend yourself from "this crazy lady in a bar who pulled a knife on me!" 
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Quoted: Then you can defend yourself from "this crazy lady in a bar who pulled a knife on me!" You put it in a humorous way but that's exactly what she did. She should have been physically disarmed by using an appropriate level of force and placed under arrest. |