[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Blue Team PR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/21/2008 2:26:12 PM EDT
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Just got the details of the above, in the notes it says, and I quote: "The match will be shot to IPSC safety rules. Please note that we would prefer that you do not wear DPM clothing". I've also noted in one of the Cof's the following; "On the appearance of the Fig. 11 target engage it with three rounds only from a prone position. Move to a seated or kneeling position and engage the target with two rounds only. Then move to a standing position and engage the target with one round only. When moving position, gun must be racked open". I don't know about you, but that doesn't sounds like a safe procedure to me if you've got an AR. One nudge and bolt goes forward and chambers a round. And if you've got an AK there's no hold open. OK I get it now, whole of CoF written with a bipod / bolt action bias.  |
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There is no camo ban at Bisley. This has been discussed many times. I don't know who the Blue Team boyo's think they are, but one thing they are not is the owners of Bisley. Like I said, if you're attending wear as much camo as you can get your hands on. I won't be going but if anyone needs to borrow some more camo, drop me a line |
Not ALL Blue Team Members support this. And many of those who would like to wear camo keep quiet. The alternative which seems popular is all black from head to foot. Or dark blue. Well, if we talk about perception issues - I think a guy dressed all in "tactical" dark clothing looks very sinister. I do empathise though - the Met Police is an environment where shooters ( private shooters who enjoy the sport - as opposed to those who do it ONLY as part of the job ) have learned that the best way to avoid criticism is to lay low and dont draw attention. I have experienced much abuse, criticism and bullying based on my shooting over the past 18 years from non-shooting colleagues and senior ranks. I can honestly that as a result of my hobby, it took me twice as long to be approved for an armed posting. The common retort from senior officers "Anyone who likes guns should not be an AFO" The DPM rule is just another result of living and working in this environment. I would actually "vote with my feet" but the MPSC / Blue Team has broadened my shooting experiences and paid for a lot of my competition entries so I accept the rule as a price I have to pay. |
DPM or any other form of surplus camo pattern clothing is a practical solution for shooting on a wet or muddy firing point. Dressed in all black CS95 Style clothing is, I agree, very more sinister and very paramilitary in outlook. But is that not what a lot of Constabularies are dressing the uniformed Bobbies in now, very sinsiter and very paramilitary. Not a suprise that the Fast Tracked Politicalised Senior Officers may not see a problem with all black and "Tacticool". Makes you wonder why most law abiding folk don't trust the Police as much now as they did may be 30 years ago. |
Why on Earth would they want to be the UKPSA?.............. 
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Perhaps this is why the Met cannot recruit enough AFO's from within it's own ranks and actively encourages AFO's from other Forces to transfer.....  That said, they are not the only Force whose senior managers hold such views.. |
Fair enough, but they could also easily organise the afore-mentioned shoot without imposing this stupid rule. Here's one for you.....all of you in fact, if you don't think there's enough organised events then go and organise one yourselves. Everyone is capable........I think! |
Ok, but wearing a ghillie suit is compulsory at the first one I organise. 
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Pah ! Continental Europe is for sissies. Former Eastern Bloc countries please, for maximum Walt factor.
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IPSC Rifle Rules: 4.1 Targets – General Principles 4.1.1 Only targets approved by the IPSC General Assembly and which fully comply with the specifications in Appendices B and C, and frangible targets (see Rule 4.4.1), are to be used for IPSC Rifle matches (seeSection 9.4). Did not see any mention of NRA DP1 or Fig.11s 5.3 Appropriate Dress 5.3.1 The use of camouflage or other similar types of military or police garments is discouraged. So are they going to flount this and allow "Black" Police/Paramilitary clothing as previously mentioned 8.1 Rifle Ready Conditions The ready condition for rifles will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the rifle. 8.1.1 Rifles: 8.1.1.1 Loaded (Option 1): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber loaded, hammer and/or sear cocked and safety catch engaged (if the rifle is designed to have one). 8.1.1.2 Loaded (Option 2): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber empty and the action closed. 8.1.1.3 Unloaded (Option 3): fixed magazine must be empty, detachable magazines removed and chamber(s) must be empty. The action/bolt may be open or closed. 8.5 Movement 8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below: 8.5.1.1. Taking more than one step in any direction. 8.5.1.2 Changing shooting position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.). I could not find any reference in the January 2006 IPSC Rifle Rules to
I suspect the match is being shot to Blue Team Rules and not IPSC; or maybe they just can't read. 
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There arn't any specific "IPSC Safety Rules", just Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun Rules. IPSC Rifle Rules I did a Google search but could not find any "Blue Team Rules" on the World Wide Web. |
The one thing that worries me about the "no military / no camo clothing" rule / "discouragement" is..................... Whats the next step ? Discorouging military style firearms ? I personally think that worrying about the image ones clothing gives an onlooker is a moot point when the majority of the firearms used will be military looking !! |
Sacha is a comedy guru !! Many would have worn the swimming costume and thought that was funny enough. But to combine it with socks and shoes was sheer genius !! 
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I'm not shooting in the comp, but fair play to them for putting on the comp. It does say that DPM not preferred, but doesn't ban it completely. Personally I can't see the problem unless you are in full walt mode and the army are practicing.....and there is a risk of mistaken identitiy. Any chance to get in there and let the average FO mingle with us competition shooters has got to be a good thing hasn't it? The more contact that an FO has with your average FAC holder the better as far as I'm concerned. Dunno how true it is, but I've heard that the Manchester firearms officers are actively discouraged from holding an FAC or partaking in any shooting sports. Like I said, I don't know how true that rumour is but I can't say I know of any serving FO who shoots outside the job up on our range. |
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I think that the "When moving position, gun must be racked open" is a result of having to conform to the new safety regime and specifically the 70mils rule. Something like: "The angle of elevation of a rifle muzzle must not exceed 70mils on gallery ranges when that rifle might be loaded." Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. I know we could all move positions with an empty still in the chamber (which is what I did in the PSUK PR comp run by the Blue Team) but this seems to be their answer. I second the comment about Mike - a top bloke. |
| They are making rules up as they go along. If what you say is correct how does it effect Rundown Matches when the rifle is loaded and made ready with the safety applied whilst running fron firing point to firing point, which by the way is a totally acceptable practice recognised by both the military and the NRA. What is this "New" safety regime? |
If the magazine is applied the rifle is loaded. With a spring return system like the AR's then a 'loaded' rifle quickly becomes a 'ready' rifle when the bolt is "racked open" and movement is made. |
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I've already paid the entry so voting with my feet isn't an option this year. And yes I'm wearing my DPM jacket. All targets will be fig 11's and some fig 14's & not DP's according to CoF. My concern is movement with the bolt racked back, that's ok for a bolt action but it's the least safe option for a spring assisted straight pull. I think it's a total lack of experience of AR's by the CoF writers together with a "we know best" attitude. |
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Like I said, don't shoot me I'm just the messenger - I'm just reporting what the interpretation was when I shot a couple of weeks ago. The 70mils rule is part of the new safety system being introduced at Bisley and yes, a rifle with a magazine inserted is "loaded" but that's not the same as having a round in the chamber (condition one, condition two etc.) and that's how the ruling was being applied at the time. I am talking about making ready at the beginning of a stage under RO supervision and not at any other time. You're gonna love this: this is all to cater for shooters firing prone off a bipod. If a round is chambered with the gun on the ground supported by a bipod, the muzzle is pointing above the 70mils limit. Therefore you can't have a PR stage where the gun is on the bipod, a round chambered, safety applied and the shooter standing behind the firing point. It was deemed ok though to have the gun in the same postion with loaded magazine inserted and bolt forward on an empty chamber, shooter standing behind the firing point. I stress this is my own observation from shooting in one competition two weeks ago. As to how this applies to CSR - I don't know, you'll have to ask the NRA.hinking.gif |
Hi guys, most of you dont know me, my name is Mike Darby and I am the Captain of the Met Police Blue Team. I have spent a few years lurking on this website and reading this forum, but just never posted before. It would appear nows the time to make my first post as a few issues may need clarifing here !!! Re BPW's initial post:
The Blue Team is practical shooting club and probably 90% of the practical shooting we do is under IPSC rules, be it shotgun or pistol here in the UK, or shotgun, pistol and rifle internationally. At the moment we dont shoot much IPSC rifle in the UK due to the fact it is hard with UK range set up and safety angles. However we believe the IPSC rules are well thought out and mostly sensible so we try and incorporate the usable parts at the shoots we hold at Bisley and the other venues we host matches at. IPSC rules say NO cammo at all. We are NOT saying that, we are just saying its not IPSC. By all means wear cammo if you feel the need, we will not turn you away, we just dont want ghillie suits turning up. Re the bolt open bit. You are all experianced rifle shooters and you have shot at Bisley many times before so you know what conditions there are like. On short Siberia, and other Bisley ranges, you have people shooting at different ranges, sometimes in front of you. A small accidential movement of your stock results in you accidently pointing your gun at them, or outside of the NSC's designated angles towards those nice clay shooters. In the comp we are asking people to change position with loaded guns. Seeing as nobody wants to point a loaded gun at anyone, or in a dangerous direction we have tried to minimise the risk to any other shooters by trying to make the guns safe whilst moving whilst not losing the 'practical' side of the match by making people completely unload their guns. If you think locking your AR bolt back and applying safe is dangerous whilst moving position, please feel free to completely unload it during movement, the RO's will not stop you. RN-Sub, we can impose what courses of fire we wish as the organisers of the match as long as it meets the NSC's basic safety regulations. So if we want to make things safer or mitigate risk as the people in charge of the shooters, and hence liable if things go wrong, it is up to us ! BPW we are certainly not bias against evil AR owners !! We love black rifles, me especially !! hankyou Do the Blue Team think they are the UKPSA ? Well part of it ! The UKPSA Chairperson, UK Press Officer, NORI Chairman, Scotland, NI, Southwest Region Co-ordinators and the International Rules Laision Officer are all Blue Team members. So whilst we dont claim to run it we certainly play our part in trying to make the UKPSA a great organisation. If you dont like the UKPSA, thats fine, everyone has their opinions. We love all shooting sports but practical is what lights our fires ! Mark, dont plait your arse hairs, they will just tangle up and you will need to wax them all off..........again |
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Hi Mike, welcome aboard. Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, I will take issue with some of this
I was watching Extreme Marksmen on Discovery last night and they were showing Jerry Miculek at the Ft Benning 3 gun. The RO was wearing a British DPM jacket and it was on telly and everything. Why does it have to be an issue? Why do you even have to bring it up?? For the record, I don't wear Camo.
Why? You don't impose this in PSG matches, or any other come to that
How so?
Names and locations of these matches please
Oh that's just great
You're not actually making anything safer, you're just saying you are
You're a club that's affiliated to it, that's all!
Aha, you could also be led to believe that there could be a conflict of interests there. Could you not? Now, based on the UKPSA/Blue team rules, to enter this IPSC based match, you will need a "competition license"...whatever that is And to get this license you must attend....and pass a 14hr basic safety course. God knows why! So assuming the match starts at 09.00 on saturday, is it not a requirement that all non UKPSA/Blue Team members that don't have a "competition license" whatever that is, must turn up no later than 19.00 on friday night in the hope that they will complete the course and get the "competition license" whatever that is, granted? You state that you have been lurking here for a while, and now you are free to post. I'd like to lurk on the UKPSA's board, but I can't because they are a secret society who have shut themselves of from the rest of the world. I used to be a UKPSA member and was even PR rep for a year and would like to see how some of my old friends are doing, but it's unpossible. Why are they so secretive?? I still believe that there is a hidden agenda behind their motives at times and it will take a long time to shake that off. I won't be there this weekend because I will be away in Norfolk for the weekend, but I stopped enjoying PR some time ago. I'm quite happy to stick to Highpower and SR these days I will say this though, in all the years I shot PR, it was a very rare day when you saw any UKPSA/Blue Team members attend anyone else's shoots. It'd be nice to see that change I wish you well with your event, but if y'all stopped putting obstacles on everyone's was at every turn, then perhaps attendances would be even higher Mark |
The 70mil QE rule applies to actual firing, it does not apply to the carrying out of drills, which is why it is written like this: "The maximum permitted QE is 70 mils and must not be exceeded. Therefore, firing must only take place on the recognised firing points, at targets that are correctly positioned. As far as drills go "On all LFMT ranges the muzzle is to be kept pointing horizontally at the target/stop butt during all handling drills and whenever made ready whilst on the firing point." However movement is allowed as per para 04295 above. On Short Siberia the 100 and 200 yard firing points have a minimum of 200 mils separation. |
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OK - The NRA have approved a set of Rules for Practical Shooting at Bisley and on all other Ranges, when shooting under the umbrella of UK NRA Practical and Civ Service Shooting. I have listed them below. The hold open suggestion is WRONG! There is absolutely no need to apply that rule. Checking the safety catches before the match and ensuring that they are applied before any movement is good enough. This has been approved for use at Bisley AND IS ALREADY USED AT BISLEY!!!!!! PRACTICAL RIFLE RULES & GUIDELINES 2004 Revised Edition 2004 1st Publication 2002 1.0 Equipment and Dress 1.1 Fullbore rifles only are to be used. 1.2 The use of automatic firearms is NOT permitted. For the purpose of these regulations, an automatic firearm is one which is capable of firing more than one shot with each operation of the trigger. Only rifles intended to fire from a closed bolt are permitted. Self-loading rifles may only be used by persons with legal authority to possess and use self-loading rifles in such events. 1.3 Triggers must hold a 3lb weight without firing. 1.4 Any rifle which malfunctions or which, in the opinion of the Range Conducting Officer (RCO) may not be in safe working order, will be immediately withdrawn from use. 1.5 Rifles are not to be modified in any way that may reduce their inherent safety. 1.6 All rifles must have a sling securely attached, so that when called for, they can be carried safely. 1.7 Items of protective clothing such as elbow & knee pads are permitted for all competitors. 1.8 Only one rifle shall be used throughout a match, except where specifically stated otherwise, and only a single rifle may be carried or used during any practice. 2.0 Safety Rules 2.1 The RCO is to conduct a Range Safety Brief (RSB), to include all personnel who will be present on the range, before any firing takes place. 2.1.1 Immediately after the RSB, all rifles must be inspected clear and the safety catch proved functioning to the satisfaction of the RCO 2.1.2 No firearm shall be loaded except by order of the RCO. 2.1.3 Ammunition which may compromise safety will not be used. If any competitor wishes to use tracer, they are to inform the RCO at the initial RSB. The RCO will then check the appropriate local range regulations and brief the shooter accordingly. 2.1.4 The use of AP or Expanding ammunition is prohibited. 2.2 No rifle will leave the firing point until it is unloaded and proven clear to the RCO’s satisfaction. 2.3 At all times other than during a course of fire, rifles will have their actions open and detachable magazines removed. Where no bolt hold-open is provided an appropriate pattern wedge must be used. 2.3.1 Due to the nature of the practise being conducted or the type of range being utilized, the RCO may elect to negate rule 2.3. However, in all cases, the shooters must be comprehensively briefed before this takes place and rule 2.2 must be strictly enforced. 2.4 When a rifle is being carried other than during a course of fire, it must be kept pointing in a safe direction. This will be briefed as, muzzle pointing down the range or slung from the shoulder, rifle vertically. 2.5.1 At all times during a course of fire, rifles must be kept pointing horizontally down range. 2.5.2 There must be no shooting whilst the shooter is on the move. 2.5.3 Safety catches must be applied when moving forward, and on all occasions required by the practice taking place. They can also be ordered to be applied by the Range Conducting Officer at any time. 2.5.4 Bipods must be folded or removed whilst the shooter is on the move or is required to move. 2.5.5 When advancing during a course of fire, the rifle must be kept under control by the firer, and must be kept pointing down the range. 2.5.5 If a course of fire requires a shooter to move to the left or right across a range,the firer is to keep the rifle pointing down the range at all times. 2.5.6 There will be no firing from the hip, or from any other position where the sights are not properly utilised. 2.6 Any handling or use of a firearm, which in the opinion of the RCO, is unsafe, whether specified here or not, will be counted as a failure to comply with the safety rules. 2.7 There are NO "fumble zones". Any shooter wishing to examine, assemble, dismantle, uncase or unsling any rifle, must carry out these actions in an appropriate declared enclosure, where the rifle shall at all times remain unloaded. 2.8 Dropping the rifle at any stage during a course of fire will be treated as an infringement of the safety rules. 2.9 Any shot discharged at an inappropriate time or in an unsafe direction will be treated as an infringement of the safety rules. And follow up action will be taken in accordance with the nature of the incident concerned and range safety rules. 2.10 If a competitor is unable to clear a malfunction without infringing any of the safety rules, he will keep the rifle pointing in a safe direction, apply the safety catch, and await assistance from a Range Officer. In all cases the rifle must be kept pointing in a safe direction, and must be maintained abreast of any shooter continuing a forward advance. 2.11.1 It is the responsibility of every participant to ensure they know and understand the instructions for the conduct of each course of fire, in addition to the current rules and guidelines relating to the competition and Practical Rifle shooting. 2.11.2 Competitors will obey any instructions given by a RCO or RCO’s delegate. 2.12 Competitors and attendees are reminded that intoxicating beverages are NOT allowed on any ranges. Any competitor considered to be under the influence of alcohol, drugs or in any way in an unfit state to compete, will be excluded from further participation. Disciplinary action may be taken. 2.13 Competitors not complying with the Safety Rules may be dismissed from the range forthwith and barred from further participation. Subsequent disciplinary action may be taken. There will be NO appeal. 2.14 When a shooter may be required to move or change position during a course of fire, one safety supervisor per shooter will be appointed. 2.15 The RCO will NOT also act as a safety supervisor. 3.0 Competition Rules 3.1 Range standing orders must be observed. 3.2 It is a condition of entry that the relevant club and competition rules are observed in addition to those mentioned above. 3.3 The organisers reserve the right to alter the shooting programme. They reserve the right to exclude any spectators and to cancel any competitor's entry at any time before or during the meeting. 3.4 No equipment is to be left unattended at any time. It must be securely locked away out of sight when not being carried about the person. Security of equipment is the responsibility of the individual. The organisers accept no responsibility for any loss or damage to property or personal injuries however caused. 3.5 Start condition of rifle and start position of shooter will be as specified in the description for each individual practice and confirmed by the RCO. 3.6 All failures to comply with the course of fire constitute procedural errors, they may be penalised by disqualification from the stage, or from the competition as a whole. 3.7 Gamesmanship, or any attempt to gain an unreasonable advantage, may be penalised by disqualification from the stage or from the competition as a whole. 3.8 Behaviour liable to bring the sport into disrepute or that obstructs the smooth running of any event may lead to disqualification. 3.9 In the event of a rifle malfunction during a practice no allowance will be made and no reshoot will be permitted. A substitute rifle may be used to complete the remaining courses of fire. 3.10 When, in the opinion of the RCO, a course of fire has not been run satisfactorily the RCO may order a re-shoot for those competitors affected. 3.11 In a competition neither coaching nor spotting is allowed, except in the case of shooters using iron sights, or optics of no more than 1.5 x magnification, when a spotter may, subject to match conditions, be allowed. 4.0 Competition Guidelines 4.1 Commands given to shooters. The following format should be used: a) Prior to the commencement of each detail ask: "DOES ANYBODY NOT UNDERSTAND THE COURSE OF FIRE ?" Clarify as necessary. It is each competitor's responsibility to be thoroughly familiar with the course they are about to shoot. b) Next, instruct the competitors to adopt a specific start condition and start position, e.g.: "WITH THE BOLT FORWARD ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER AND A MAGAZINE OF 10 ROUNDS APPLIED, ADOPT THE READY STANDING ALERT POSITION 1M BEHIND THE FIRING POINT". c) Then inform the competitors as to what the "START" signal is and what to do on receiving it, e.g.: "ON THE APPEARANCE OF THE TARGETS, MOVE TO THE FIRING POINT, ADOPT THE PRONE POSITION AND ENGAGE WITH 10 ROUNDS". d) Then ask "IS ANYONE NOT READY?" e) Then give the appropriate instruction to await and act upon the "START" signal. In this case that would be "WATCH AND SHOOT, WATCH AND SHOOT". f) Where any movement forward is to precede shooting, the command given would be "WATCH OUT, WATCH OUT". g) The end of the course of fire will be signalled. This is usually indicated by the disappearance of the target(s) or by a command to "CEASE FIRE". Occasionally practices may require other methods. It should always be specified quite clearly what determines the end of the practice. h) Upon the command : "UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR". Firers will unload their rifles, keeping them pointing down the range until an independent check has been made by the RCO, or their individual Safety Supervisors. In all cases it will be the RCO who clears the firer off the firing point. 4.2 Humanizing targetry, by using a description of, "hostage"and "terrorist" etc., is forbidden. 4.3 Scoring a) The maximum score for each practice should reflect the number of hits required to complete it. Thus the HPS will normally be the maximum score per hit multiplied by the maximum number of hits to count. b) In courses of unusual difficulty, with low hit probability or potential, it may be necessary to assign a higher than usual value to certain zones. c) Where there is a limit to the number of rounds allowed for a practice, this limit must be clearly stated. The maximum number of rounds permitted for the course will not necessarily be the same as the maximum number of hits to count. d) Should a course involve unlimited rounds, steps must be taken to limit the maximum score for the stage. This will generally be done either by limiting the number of hits to count or by the targets being retracted after a given number of hits. NB: All meetings should aim to provide a balanced programme between shorter range practices and those of longer range. 4.5 There will not normally be any provision for sighting-in prior to or during a competition. 4.6 Competitors will NOT, whilst participating in run-down courses chamber a round until in the specified position on the firing point to be used. 4.7 Procedural errors: a) Early or late shots incur a penalty of the highest hit value for the practice for each shot fired. b) Shots over maximum round limit as per 4.7a. c) Departure from the prescribed course as per 4.7a, per shot fired where benefit may have accrued as a result. Note that where shoot through's count as a bonus, the maximum score so achieved from a single shot will be counted as the highest hit value for penalties. d) Hits on no-shoot targets will normally carry a penalty equivalent to the highest hit value on a scoring target. 4.8 Gamesmanship is defined as deliberately seeking to gain or gaining an unfair advantage over other competitors by whatever means. 5.0 Guidelines for Competition 5.1 Competitors should have a reliable stopwatch and an indelible writing implement. 5.2 In normal circumstances no allowance will be made for competitors who are not ready to shoot at the appointed time for their squad. Delays to the shooting programme inevitably lead to loss of shooting and omission of courses of fire. Competitors are therefore to ensure that they, and other members of their squad, are fully prepared to commence their detail as soon as the previous detail is cleared off the firing point. 5.3 All competitors must be prepared to take up their duty as butt crew, Safety Supervisor, marker, scorer etc., as required by the RCO or the organisers. 5.4 Those wishing to retrieve brass etc during a practice, or whilst an event is still in progress, must enrol a volunteer to follow behind the Safety Supervisor as they will be required to clear the range as quickly as possible to make way for the next detail. 5.5 Delays caused by individuals not observing the requirements of Paras. 5.2/3/4 above may lead to the disqualification of those concerned. Rules of 2004 |
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Mark, thank you for your good wishes for the match. I am quite surprised by some of the strong feelings around this subject. On one hand people are saying its unsafe asking people to lock back bolts on AR's, but on the other people are saying forget all that, just have around in the chamber and apply safe. Which one is it ? Considering the Blue Team is only trying to put on a match for any shooter who wants to take part in it, it seems we are kinda getting a lot of stick for trying to help shooting sports and especially rifle shooting. Guys, I really dont want to get into a big deal discussion about this as I am sure we all have much bigger significant things in life to worry about, like has 'Posh' really started eating more and spending less. But to answer some of the points.
That was me RO'ing Jerry. It just shows how 'Pro Cammo' I am. It wasnt an IPSC match so I felt like wearing it.
When people who shoot IPSC matches they have, as you go on to state, already done a safety course and there is never anyone in front of them or rifle backstop issues. So to try and mitigate risk for the inexperianced first match practical rifle shooter, we have tried to include a small safety barrier to prevent any mishaps. If a round went awry, over the backstop or anything awful happened I am sure the 'the NCS said it was safe, so it wasnt our fault' argument wouldnt hold much water.
Well by the end of the year at bisley we have run over 7 target shotgun type matches as either the Blue Team or on behalf of the NSC and we ran the 'open to all' practical rifle match 2 weeks ago for the National Police Shooting Championships. Not as many matches at Bisley as some disciplines put on but at least we make an effort.
I respectfully disagee, but it has to be safer than having a loaded chamber and just applying safe, does it not ?
This isnt an IPSC sanctioned match, as I said we are just applying some of their rules on top of what the NSC rules are.
I think you are confusing the UKPSA with the 'Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword'. You can see the UKPSA web site, its just the discussion boards that are for the fully paid up members of the association - kinda like the members page on the HRA web site I assume.
Totally agree, I also hope to shoot with you guys, we all need to support each other and experiance more shooting diciplines, Brian seemed to enjoy himself last week.
Because the IPSC rules allow you to move with a loaded gun without the safety applied.
And be accused of being un-imaginative !! hock.gif We want to put variety and interesting aspects onto the CoF. This isnt a big deal, all we are asking for is actions to be open !
I agree they are crap and re-vamping. I hope this has addressed the main points, I do think we need to regain some perspective here, lets face it this is not the end of the world. It just shows no matter how hard you try you cant please everyone Hope Mike |
You may happily accuse me of being picky but the IPSC rules say:
Now "Safety should be engaged" is not must be, but I think you've gone from one extreme to the other. The NSC does not have any safety rules that require what you appear to require to conduct a fire with movement match. I'm totally agree with your point that what you propose is ultimately more safe than changing position with a loaded, made ready and safety applied firearm, but, and its a big but, it isn't Practical Rifle and it isn't really necessary, unless of course your going to let complete firearms novices shoot without appropriate mentoring. Saying that you are applying some of the IPSC rules on top of NSC Rules sounds to me and many others that you are making them up as you go along. HRA Web Site members only area is purely a database to record you firearms use and attendance at shoots to assist at FAC renewal time, there is no "Secret" members only forum. I hope your shoot goes well, has a good turn out and that it encourages people to come back for more. If they come a shoot with LPSC, shoot the Southern PR or Bangor etc or any the NRA CSR shoots they'll sure be confused about rifle conditions and movement practices. |
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Mike, Whether its IPSC or UKPSA or anybody else viewing camo / military clothing negatively, it just seems crazy. On one hand they want to avoid a military / paramilitary image but the courses of fire are frequently an obvious replication of a combat scenario - fire and movement, shooting from behind cover, human sized targets ( even when the modern PC version ) and the use of military type firearms. If we ban / avoid / politely request not to wear military clothing, whats next ? Avoid military firearms and shoot practical shotgun with side by side sporting shotguns ? Shoot practical rifle with walnut stocked low capacity "traditional" hunting rifles ? I think the comments were more a reflection of the sense of frustration felt by many over the increasing levels of political correctness creeping into shooting than an attack on The Blue Team. It appears to me that the sort of non-shooting person who will receive a negative perception of shooters wearing military clothing will STILL receive that negative perception purely based on the "fire and movement / shooting behind cover", the size of the targets and the type of firearms used. |
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Well I'm totally bloody lost now!..............all this farting about arguing about which rules are better/more appropriate than which is the kind of stuff that puts newbies off from even trying the sport.....................if I were a lurker thinking about giving it a go this thread would be enough to put me off. It's a good job I'm already ...and for the benefit of any lurkers/newbies who might be wavering having read this thread, don't be put off. Come along anyway, PR, CSR, HR, gallery, whatever, 'cos it's great fun. Feign total ignorance (well I didn't have to pretend that bit ), smile sweetly, nod where it seems appropriate and just have fun shooting........................
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A big +1 from me. I'll be there at the weekend. Been a while since my barrel got hot  , so thanks to Mike and the Blue Team for setting the match up.I'll be in black - all black. Anyone got a resperator and some body armour I could borrow ???
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I seem to have started something haven't I? All I saying was with a straight pull, it's safe to move with the bolt forward (and therefore not cocked) on the empty case, and not chamber the next round until into the next position. I wasn't suggesting that movement was done with rifle made ready. And I see we have 12 rds in 60 seconds with two position changes so the comment "feel free to unload" is really really helpful. |
Why not, it's what is done at most other PR and CSR Matches (Safety checked beforehand and applied during movement of course).  Hope you enjoy the shoot and the Blue Team evolve and start to get the confidence to adapt and change their CoFs in the future. May be we’ll see some of the Blue Team supporting the NRA’s efforts to host CSR Matches over the winter months. Oh and just in case anyone was wondering I have been to a Blue Team “PR” shoot in the past but is was quite a few years ago and was a once in a life time experience for me as PR does not float my boat anymore and I’m too busy shooting Service Rifle with work to get PR in as well as CSR and HP. |
I can't even remember what the brief was last time I did a match, but if a made ready gun isn't considered safe with the safety applied there's not a lot of point in having one.............. |
No but I have a box of Milk Tray you can have: 300m Scoff Down Rounds- 1kg box Target-not to throw up Exposure-10 seconds Start Position-Standing with full box, seal intact. On appearance of bucket, run down to 200m, adopt the kneeling/sitting position and stuff as many chocolates down your neck as you can...................(if you must throw up, please use the bucket) 
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I have an S10. You may make light of it but I once saw M1154 (Ian D to everyone) wolf down a rather large pork pie before the 500-100 run-down
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I trust he didn't need the bucket..? 
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