Posted: 5/14/2010 12:50:21 PM EDT
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I'll ask the same question I did in this thread that is in GD. Wanted to find out what you guys thought about the situation, and what the correct legal way to go about it would be.
Thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1040331&page=1 My question: Lets say you just happened to turn the corner and unknowingly come up on this happening. You are not threatened in any way and could easily just go back the way you came. You are in a CCW (Florida in our case) state and have your weapon with you. Legally, can you open fire? I would think you could as is a younger, stronger and bigger 'crowd' attacking older people that are defenseless on the ground. Wanted to see if I am right. And what if the people being attacked were the same age, yet still outnumbered and on the ground? |
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You are permitted to defend others if you feel *they* are in great danger.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
* Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm; * Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.
I would like to think I would react fast enough and correctly.... I would certainly try. |
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Legally you should not pull your gun. Call 911 1st. You are not a LEO. You are not enforcing laws.
You can step in, & use your fists, or non lethal force. Unless they produce a weapon or what can be defined as a deadly weapon, you can't pull your gun. Now if you did, & the circumstances were the same as in the video, I highly doubt you would be prosecuted. This is why you always have a lawyer on standby. |
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Quoted:
Legally you should not pull your gun. Call 911 1st. You are not a LEO. You are not enforcing laws. You can step in, & use your fists, or non lethal force. Unless they produce a weapon or what can be defined as a deadly weapon, you can't pull your gun. Now if you did, & the circumstances were the same as in the video, I highly doubt you would be prosecuted. This is why you always have a lawyer on standby. So a group of people beating the shit out of somebody who is incapable of defending themself is not deadly force? 
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I'm not a lawyer, so this is my interpretation of the laws...
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.––A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or 776.031 Use of force in defense of others.––A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be. 776.06 Deadly force.–– (1) The term "deadly force" means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to: (a) The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and (b) The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding. (2)(a) The term "deadly force" does not include the discharge of a firearm by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer during and within the scope of his or her official duties which is loaded with a less-lethal munition. As used in this subsection, the term "less-lethal munition" means a projectile that is designed to stun, temporarily incapacitate, or cause temporary discomfort to a person without penetrating the person's body. (b) A law enforcement officer or a correctional officer is not liable in any civil or criminal action arising out of the use of any less-lethal munition in good faith during and within the scope of his or her official duties. Again, whether someone would be prosecuted in that video example, IDK. |
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From Dept. of Agriculture's website:
Q. What if I see a crime being committed? A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter. |
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Quoted:
I'm not a lawyer, so this is my interpretation of the laws... Again, whether someone would be prosecuted in that video example, IDK. I just want to point out that I know quite a few cops, lawyers and state attorneys who post on this forum who have real-life experience handing SD shootings. Perhaps they are in a better position to answer the OP's question. |
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Quoted:
You are permitted to defend others if you feel *they* are in great danger. http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
* Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm; * Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.
I would like to think I would react fast enough and correctly.... I would certainly try. Looks like you would be in the clear from the above in bold, as well as the second circumstance: 776.08 Forcible felony.––"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
Source: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/Sec08.htm So you could say you were trying to protect another from death or serious bodily harm, and also trying to stop the commission of a forcible felony, in this case, aggravated assault/battery. So all-in-all..... Quoted:
Good shoot. +1 |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not a lawyer, so this is my interpretation of the laws... Again, whether someone would be prosecuted in that video example, IDK. I just want to point out that I know quite a few cops, lawyers and state attorneys who post on this forum who have real-life experience handing SD shootings. Perhaps they are in a better position to answer the OP's question. Maybe so. Unfortunately in real life we all must decide what to do given our situation. What does serious bodily harm; consist of? What defines that? Who defines that? Case law. You will have to do the deed & then get tried & win to set case law.
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What does
serious bodily harm; consist of? What defines that? Who defines that? Case law. You will have to do the deed & then get tried & win to set case law. From your own source: 776.012 Use of force in defense of person.––A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony A bunch of bangers pulling a guy out of a car and sending him to the hospital seems to me that it would qualify.... And I am sure that most people see a group of younger guys ganging up on an older gentleman and beating him badley enough to send him to the hospital as serious bodily harm. |
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Quoted:
Legally you should not pull your gun. Call 911 1st. You are not a LEO. You are not enforcing laws. You can step in, & use your fists, or non lethal force. Unless they produce a weapon or what can be defined as a deadly weapon, you can't pull your gun. Now if you did, & the circumstances were the same as in the video, I highly doubt you would be prosecuted. This is why you always have a lawyer on standby. I disagree. It's called disparity of force, and nobody in their right mind unless they are a trained badass is going to single-handedly take on multiple assailants with just their fists in defense of an old man getting beat down by a group of thugs. I say firing on the group of thugs would be a good shoot. Of course, one could choose to just back away and pretend they didn't see anything, or call the police and wait for them to arrive while the elderly man is being further beaten or possibly killed, in that the case the police will just file the report and arrest the thugs after the fact. |
| So who here thinks fists do not constitute deadly force? There are thousands of precedents of people convicted of murder by use of their fists. I would shoot in that situation without hesitation. Blunt force trauma is deadly, especially in the elderly and children with their more fragile vascular systems. |
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I think the main problem lies in the forum members trying to walk the line of legality. We are not police or heroes or John Wayne or obligated to uphold any law. The supreme court has said that police are not obligated to save you, and can't be sued when they don't.
When you remove these restrictions from your mindset, then you will be clear minded enough to know what to do. "Honor as a way of life" is only an empty tagline. Do not confuse it with reality. Shoot or walk away..just don't stick around afterward. |