Posted: 2/23/2009 3:44:31 PM EDT
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With a C&R am I allow to own full auto weapons? What is the deal with book keeping? What do I need to record? Do I need a home phone or fax line? Can someone give me the low down.
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind.
I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. |
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind. I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. I know this is stupid what is NFA, I am starting to see that term in alot of place now that I am asking about this? What about C&R guns ( I own an M1 Garrand is that a C&R) I already own do I have to keep track of them in this book? What about silencers? The_D |
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind. I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. I know this is stupid what is NFA, I am starting to see that term in alot of place now that I am asking about this? What about C&R guns ( I own an M1 Garrand is that a C&R) I already own do I have to keep track of them in this book? What about silencers? The_D The above poster in front of you is HALF-TRUE! To own NON-C&R NFA (title 2 weapons subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934) in MO you are good to go with the proper transfer paperwork. IF you want NON-C&R NFA (pretty much all modern MG's, SBR's, SBS's and silencers) in MO then you must hold an FFL. The C&R is an FFL which doesn't put you "in the business" as far as the ATF is concerned. Yes MO law is stupid and outdated but it aint that big of a deal. IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). In a nutshell by definition a firearm is C&R by being older than 50 yrs or if newer than 50 it must be deemed C&R due to historical significance by the ATF. So yes your ORIGINAL GI Garand is a C&R firearm. ETA: previously owned (before license) C&R firearms are not to be logged .. as you did not have the license at the time of acquisition and may be disposed of however way you see fit. They are truely "personal" and are not to be logged on the license. |
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IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). I'm not sure if you're saying you need to put a non C&R NFA item in your 03 Bound book if you use an 03 FFL to legally posses an NFA item in MO, but if so, I would think... Unless it's a C&R NFA firearm, you're not really using your 03FFL to obtain an NFA firearm as far as the ATF is concerned; MO just requires you to have some form of FFL to posses a NFA gun. If you're not doing it under a LLC, your CLEO won't sign off if you don't have an FFL, but you're not acquiring the NFA item through your 03 FFL. If you're doing it through an LLC, you never even show anyone your FFL, but you still need to have it. But I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be entirely wrong on this. You can ask a hundred different ATF agents the same NFA firearm question, and you'll probably get a several dozen different answers. ATF agents often aren't the best people to answer firearms questions, strangely enough. In all fairness, like any law enforcement officer, they can't be expected to know and understand every detail of all the laws they enforce. MO NFA SBR PRocess Link for Reference |
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As a side note, since the original poster was interested in full auto, and I'm not sure how much he knows about FA NFA in general, here's another point to consider:
Full Auto is not a poor man's hobby. The GCA of 86 prohibits civilians and non-dealers from obtaining any full auto stuff made after 1986, and any transferable pre86 fa gun is going to be pricey; you're generally talking about 5 figures. With the price of ammo these days, most of my friends don't want to fire their semi auto firearms as much as they used to, let alone do any full auto shooting. |
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Quoted: Quoted: IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). I'm not sure if you're saying you need to put a non C&R NFA item in your 03 Bound book if you use an 03 FFL to legally posses an NFA item in MO, but if so, I would think... Unless it's a C&R NFA firearm, you're not really using your 03FFL to obtain an NFA firearm as far as the ATF is concerned; MO just requires you to have some form of FFL to posses a NFA gun. If you're not doing it under a LLC, your CLEO won't sign off if you don't have an FFL, but you're not acquiring the NFA item through your 03 FFL. If you're doing it through an LLC, you never even show anyone your FFL, but you still need to have it. But I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be entirely wrong on this. You can ask a hundred different ATF agents the same NFA firearm question, and you'll probably get a several dozen different answers. ATF agents often aren't the best people to answer firearms questions, strangely enough. In all fairness, like any law enforcement officer, they can't be expected to know and understand every detail of all the laws they enforce. MO NFA SBR PRocess Link for Reference Karl, you are right. You don't log modern suppressors in your C&R book in MO. Your not "using" your C&R to obtain modern NFA in Missouri. It's a state requirement. |
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IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). I'm not sure if you're saying you need to put a non C&R NFA item in your 03 Bound book if you use an 03 FFL to legally posses an NFA item in MO, but if so, I would think... Unless it's a C&R NFA firearm, you're not really using your 03FFL to obtain an NFA firearm as far as the ATF is concerned; MO just requires you to have some form of FFL to posses a NFA gun. If you're not doing it under a LLC, your CLEO won't sign off if you don't have an FFL, but you're not acquiring the NFA item through your 03 FFL. If you're doing it through an LLC, you never even show anyone your FFL, but you still need to have it. But I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I could be entirely wrong on this. You can ask a hundred different ATF agents the same NFA firearm question, and you'll probably get a several dozen different answers. ATF agents often aren't the best people to answer firearms questions, strangely enough. In all fairness, like any law enforcement officer, they can't be expected to know and understand every detail of all the laws they enforce. MO NFA SBR PRocess Link for Reference Karl, you are right. You don't log modern suppressors in your C&R book in MO. Your not "using" your C&R to obtain modern NFA in Missouri. It's a state requirement. Yes .. you are "using" your license to obtain modern NFA. Because if you don't list an FFL (C&R) in the blank space on the Form 1/4 .. it will be rejected as not meeting the state law. I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else does but I am logging all my modern NFA into my C&R bound book as I "used" my C&R to obtain them (as far as the NFA branch is concerned). |
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While I may not agree with the logic here, or more appropriately the lack of it, especially given that we're talking about the Tech Branch and their Decision Du Jour I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else does but I am logging all my modern NFA into my C&R bound book as I "used" my C&R to obtain them (as far as the NFA branch is concerned).  , what can it possibly hurt to log the items? A little time & ink? Eh, why not do it, just in case?
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While I may not agree with the logic here, or more appropriately the lack of it, especially given that we're talking about the Tech Branch and their Decision Du Jour I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else does but I am logging all my modern NFA into my C&R bound book as I "used" my C&R to obtain them (as far as the NFA branch is concerned). , what can it possibly hurt to log the items? A little time & ink? Eh, why not do it, just in case?
Well, since I don't have any NFA, and don't intend to (My MSAR STG556 is short enough I don't really need an SBR), it doesn't really matter to me. I have "used" my C&R to get all sorts of ammo (as proof of age instead of my drivers license) and other non-serialized stuff, and none of that gets logged in to my book. |
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind. I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. I know this is stupid what is NFA, I am starting to see that term in alot of place now that I am asking about this? What about C&R guns ( I own an M1 Garrand is that a C&R) I already own do I have to keep track of them in this book? What about silencers? The_D The above poster in front of you is HALF-TRUE! To own NON-C&R NFA (title 2 weapons subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934) in MO you are good to go with the proper transfer paperwork. IF you want NON-C&R NFA (pretty much all modern MG's, SBR's, SBS's and silencers) in MO then you must hold an FFL. The C&R is an FFL which doesn't put you "in the business" as far as the ATF is concerned. Yes MO law is stupid and outdated but it aint that big of a deal. IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). In a nutshell by definition a firearm is C&R by being older than 50 yrs or if newer than 50 it must be deemed C&R due to historical significance by the ATF. So yes your ORIGINAL GI Garand is a C&R firearm. ETA: previously owned (before license) C&R firearms are not to be logged .. as you did not have the license at the time of acquisition and may be disposed of however way you see fit. They are truely "personal" and are not to be logged on the license. ds762, it sounds as if you need to brush up on the law. Missouri law clearly states that it is legal to own NFA firearms with a collectors license. this is a direct copy paste from http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000020.htm "(5) Was incident to dealing with the weapon solely as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, or to using it in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance; but if the weapon is a type described in subdivision (1) or (4) of subsection 1 of this section it must be in such a nonfunctioning condition that it cannot readily be made operable. No short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, machine gun, or firearm silencer may be possessed, manufactured, transported, repaired or sold as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, unless such person is an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the Gun Control Act of 1968, U.S.C., Title 18, or unless such firearm is an antique firearm as defined in subsection 3 of section 571.080, or unless such firearm has been designated a collectors item by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the U.S.C., Title 26, Section 5845(a). " It seems to that if the ATF is doing otherwise, then they are making up rules again. There is no Federal requirement to have an FFL and Missouri's requirement is clearly stated in Missouri's law quoted above. The way I read it, it is legal to own NFA "antiques" or "collector's items" with out an FFL and any FFL would satisfy the need for modern NFA weapons. |
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind. I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. I know this is stupid what is NFA, I am starting to see that term in alot of place now that I am asking about this? What about C&R guns ( I own an M1 Garrand is that a C&R) I already own do I have to keep track of them in this book? What about silencers? The_D The above poster in front of you is HALF-TRUE! To own NON-C&R NFA (title 2 weapons subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934) in MO you are good to go with the proper transfer paperwork. IF you want NON-C&R NFA (pretty much all modern MG's, SBR's, SBS's and silencers) in MO then you must hold an FFL. The C&R is an FFL which doesn't put you "in the business" as far as the ATF is concerned. Yes MO law is stupid and outdated but it aint that big of a deal. IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). In a nutshell by definition a firearm is C&R by being older than 50 yrs or if newer than 50 it must be deemed C&R due to historical significance by the ATF. So yes your ORIGINAL GI Garand is a C&R firearm. ETA: previously owned (before license) C&R firearms are not to be logged .. as you did not have the license at the time of acquisition and may be disposed of however way you see fit. They are truely "personal" and are not to be logged on the license. ds762, it sounds as if you need to brush up on the law. Missouri law clearly states that it is legal to own NFA firearms with a collectors license. this is a direct copy paste from http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000020.htm "(5) Was incident to dealing with the weapon solely as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, or to using it in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance; but if the weapon is a type described in subdivision (1) or (4) of subsection 1 of this section it must be in such a nonfunctioning condition that it cannot readily be made operable. No short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, machine gun, or firearm silencer may be possessed, manufactured, transported, repaired or sold as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, unless such person is an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the Gun Control Act of 1968, U.S.C., Title 18, or unless such firearm is an antique firearm as defined in subsection 3 of section 571.080, or unless such firearm has been designated a collectors item by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the U.S.C., Title 26, Section 5845(a). " It seems to that if the ATF is doing otherwise, then they are making up rules again. There is no Federal requirement to have an FFL and Missouri's requirement is clearly stated in Missouri's law quoted above. The way I read it, it is legal to own NFA "antiques" or "collector's items" with out an FFL and any FFL would satisfy the need for modern NFA weapons. So I can have something that is full auto. The reason I am asking it is I want a Glock 18 to complete my collection of 9mm Glocks. The_D |
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So I can have something that is full auto. The reason I am asking it is I want a Glock 18 to complete my collection of 9mm Glocks. The_D Yes and no. Yes you can have full auto, if you can find a transferable pre 86 full auto firearm; no you cannot have any full auto firearms made after 1986, unless you have a dealer's license and a law enforcement demo letter. You will not be able to find a transferable Glock 18. The cheapest transferable full auto you are going to find is a POS Mac 10 for around $4000. My friend -Duke-Neukem- says the MAc 10 is a great gun if you expect to get in a shootout in a phone booth. |
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The cheapest transferable full auto you are going to find is a POS Mac 10 for around $4000. My friend -Duke-Neukem- says the MAc 10 is a great gun if you expect to get in a shootout in a phone booth. Not to get off topic, but I've seen "POS MAC10's" do very well in subgun matches, beating out much more refined machine guns. And this was at distances much greater than the width of a phone booth. Just because it seems crude, doesn't mean it's not effective. eta: and with the soft market, you can find a MAC10 or M11/9 for under $3000 if you look a little. |
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In MO, you must have an FFL to own NFA weapons. Since a C&R is a form of FFL, it meets the requirement. As far as book keeping, you only have to keep books if you acquire or dispose of any C&R guns while you have your license. There is no requirement that I know of for you to have a fax or phone line of any kind. I suppose to meet the letter of the law, you would have to have a bound book, but if you have no C&R firearms, you just wouldn't have anything in it. I know this is stupid what is NFA, I am starting to see that term in alot of place now that I am asking about this? What about C&R guns ( I own an M1 Garrand is that a C&R) I already own do I have to keep track of them in this book? What about silencers? The_D The above poster in front of you is HALF-TRUE! To own NON-C&R NFA (title 2 weapons subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934) in MO you are good to go with the proper transfer paperwork. IF you want NON-C&R NFA (pretty much all modern MG's, SBR's, SBS's and silencers) in MO then you must hold an FFL. The C&R is an FFL which doesn't put you "in the business" as far as the ATF is concerned. Yes MO law is stupid and outdated but it aint that big of a deal. IF you use your license to obtain an NFA item it must go into your bound book (I've had this discussion with several local ATF agents). In a nutshell by definition a firearm is C&R by being older than 50 yrs or if newer than 50 it must be deemed C&R due to historical significance by the ATF. So yes your ORIGINAL GI Garand is a C&R firearm. ETA: previously owned (before license) C&R firearms are not to be logged .. as you did not have the license at the time of acquisition and may be disposed of however way you see fit. They are truely "personal" and are not to be logged on the license. ds762, it sounds as if you need to brush up on the law. Missouri law clearly states that it is legal to own NFA firearms with a collectors license. this is a direct copy paste from http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000020.htm "(5) Was incident to dealing with the weapon solely as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, or to using it in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance; but if the weapon is a type described in subdivision (1) or (4) of subsection 1 of this section it must be in such a nonfunctioning condition that it cannot readily be made operable. No short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, machine gun, or firearm silencer may be possessed, manufactured, transported, repaired or sold as a curio, ornament, or keepsake, unless such person is an importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the Gun Control Act of 1968, U.S.C., Title 18, or unless such firearm is an antique firearm as defined in subsection 3 of section 571.080, or unless such firearm has been designated a collectors item by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to the U.S.C., Title 26, Section 5845(a). " It seems to that if the ATF is doing otherwise, then they are making up rules again. There is no Federal requirement to have an FFL and Missouri's requirement is clearly stated in Missouri's law quoted above. The way I read it, it is legal to own NFA "antiques" or "collector's items" with out an FFL and any FFL would satisfy the need for modern NFA weapons. I've highlighted the areas of concern in red. You need to re-read my post .. I'm well aware of MO law 
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The cheapest transferable full auto you are going to find is a POS Mac 10 for around $4000. My friend -Duke-Neukem- says the MAc 10 is a great gun if you expect to get in a shootout in a phone booth. Not to get off topic, but I've seen "POS MAC10's" do very well in subgun matches, beating out much more refined machine guns. And this was at distances much greater than the width of a phone booth. Just because it seems crude, doesn't mean it's not effective. eta: and with the soft market, you can find a MAC10 or M11/9 for under $3000 if you look a little. Sometimes it's the carpenter; sometimes it's the tool. $3000 or $4000, my point was to give him a ball park idea of the cost since he probably isn't aware of the expense involved. I would guess that if you could find a transferable Glock 18, it would run 5 figures. |