[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Check your fire, aim higher. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/19/2013 11:07:50 AM EDT
|
I was born and raised a New Yorker. I owned my first AR and lurked around here long before I was LEO.
I have always been on your side in this fight for our rights, not just the 2nd, but for the entire Constitution and the Republic, if we can keep it. I am not alone. Having said that; I am sick and tired of seeing LEO now being demonized and vilified by my own people, perpetuating the very same "Us vs. Them" mentality that people complain of cops harboring, against those we swore an oath to serve and protect. It needs to stop. It is causing a divide between us that is only going to weaken our numbers, and thusly, our strength. I have read several threads that exemplify this. The LaRue thread, the Armalite thread, the Olympic Arms thread. All of them have one thing in common: a reaction that, in summary, amounts to "Yeah! Fuck the cops, they can burn!" Even our own HTF forum mod, that made a "no cop bashing" notice in this forum, jumped into that dog pile in the Armalite thread. I personally can only speak for myself, my partners at work, and a handful of others I work with. But I know those among you either are also LEO, or have friends and family that are LEO. You KNOW that we are on your side, and al ways have been. Do the math, look around, and you will find a majority of honest boots on the ground officers support you, and we consider ourselves on the same team as you. We wrote letters. We wrote emails. We made calls after calls. We donated to the NRA. We fought to educate people on social media. We went to rallies. We exhausted ourselves at every avenue. The SAFE Act happened anyway, and when it passed, we were just as furious and angry as you all were. First I was told, "don't worry, LEO will be exempt," and I said, that's not good enough. When the letter came around to print, sign, and mail to Cuomo asking for him to amend the SAFE Act law to add exemptions for active and retired LEO, I refused to take part in that, as did several others. We didn't care if it pissed coworkers off. We said, this isn't enough, it excludes the law abiding. When the PBA President shot his mouth off demanding an AWB and "high capacity" mag restrictions, speaking on behalf of all Police Officers in the department without even consulting his fellow delegates, before the Commissioner had even said anything in regards to Sandy Hook, I was enraged! I took to facebook and linked the article and declared, "Pat Lynch does not speak for us all!" I am not speaking as an officer upset over the recent refusal to sell policies put in place by several companies; I've got mine, and if it came down to it, I would help you get yours. If you have it already, I would expect you to keep it, and be disappointed if you didn't. I expect you to keep as many rounds in your magazines as they can accept. I am not coming to take these things away from you. I haven't met a coworker or cop from my department otherwise that wants to confiscate them either. But I do know they are out there. I'm ashamed to have to work among them. But they are part of a small group, usually consisting of the upper brass and the political elite you see on TV endorsing these unconstitutional legislations. The same scenario exists for our military. But we shan't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch. When they step forward to do evil and wrong, they will be known, and they will be dealt with. The majority of cops and soldiers, sometimes the two groups overlapping with veterans and reservists, are on your side, have your back, and will not take arms against you, regardless of what designs the upper echelons may be scheming. What I have a problem with is the misguided anger and frustrations being directed at us, as though we wrote and passed these laws, and have designs to disarm you. That is not true, and you know this. "Check your fire, aim higher." It means instead of throwing the flack at us, who are just as upset about these things as you are, focus that at the legislators that come up with this shit and pass in the dark of night, sneaky and dishonest. "Oh but by wearing that uniform you are standing with and endorsing what they're pushing, and if you were really 'with us,' you would either quit or find work in a free state." Shut up, idiot. That is the stupidest cop-out excuse I have heard, not to mention dangerous. You either hate cops to begin with and have a huge chip on your shoulder, or you're dumb. You know our hands are tied. You know that this isn't the only thing we go to work for. You know that there are other people that choose not to own firearms, for whichever reason, that still like and want for the police to be there, and we want to be there for them, to serve and protect. And we do it happily, without expecting any of you to volunteer and answer the domestic violence, robbery, and assault calls, just to name a few. Please try to remember that. We have to be here for everybody, even you, and we volunteered to do it. But that doesn't automatically put us in the same camp as those that seek to disarm the public. Consider, since we've established that the multitude of us are with you, you want us on the inside. We are more useful to you that way in the sense of force multiplication. Just something to think about. I have been asked, what gives cops the right to be better armed than civilians? There's this little thing called escalation that happens when criminals, real wrong doing criminals, procure better armament and equipment than the police are currently afforded, that necessitates police upgrading their own tools and equipment. At that point, we didn't turn around, look at you, and say "But they can't have it." When the socialist/power hungry and lala land head up their ass leftists and liberals that hold a majority in places like this are visited by the good idea fairy, or let their emotions get the better of them, they either think to truly disarm their "subjects," or they think they're going to protect everybody, and that's how sweeping bans happen. Instead of making laws that target the criminals, they make blanketing, broad stroke legislation that punishes everybody. It sucks, and we all hate it, and it's not okay. But when I see people giving Armalite a hard time, saying "you're not going to sell to law abiding citizens but will sell to the people that will use those weapons to disarm us," I think, "this is crazy, do they really believe that?" When we go home, or at least when I go home, I'm one of you. I'm not a buff that puffs his chest out 24/7. I'm not special, none of us think we are. We don't think we're better than you. Have we used exemptions to our advantage to get better equipped stuff? Of course, we aren't stupid, principles in that regard won't help anybody in a gun fight unless you die and become a martyr. But you'd be fools to think we didn't have extra available for our non LEO friends and family. I'm sure, to a cop like me somewhere, some of you are included in that group. This is where punishing the individual instead of the departments that would serve these legislators and enforce their unconstitutional legislation is really a problem. Right now, with baited breath, we watch the courts to see where this will go next. And we sit right next to you on the edges of our seats. I knew this was coming. I've known for years. How and why is another story, but the lack of clarity surrounding it can be maddening. I know how frustrated you all feel. I feel the same. I know how badly you want for there to be a clear cut "bad guy" to aim and vent your anger at, because it makes it easier to focus. But it's not us. It's not the rank and file boots on the ground that live and work in the same communities as you. Do not punish and wish for hateful things upon us, when we do not seek to harm you or your rights or your ability to defend them. Check your fire, aim higher. We sit in the same foxhole as you. |
|
I understand your perspective and I appreciate your support. I know you're not fighting for "us," since you could very well cease being an LEO for one reason or other and have these laws apply to you, just as they would apply to your family. I know there are plenty in such positions of authority who do not approve of these gun-bans and put themselves on the line to oppose them.
But, unfortunately, there are many that do not, and that's why I think some LEOs get flack. Somebody here has a signature that explains their distrust of LEOs: something to the effect that they do not trust a stranger with the power to completely destroy their lives. I understand that you may not be one of them, but the problem is with the system, and LEOs are agents of that system. Supporting the actions of Larue does not equate to hate for law enforcement. I'm happy and pleased that Larue (and others) decided not to sell to LE what LE would be tasked with enforcing the general population from owning. I support LEOs and I understand what they do is important, but that's a good way to send a message to the politicians and the "top brass" that supports these disarmament schemes, and groups like the "Fraternal Order of Police" that are on the wrong side of this issue. You may not like the SAFE act, and you may not be enthusiastic about enforcing it, but when push comes to shove, how many of your fellow LEOs will decide to disobey authority and put their own jobs/freedoms on the line because they don't personally agree with arresting Joe Smith for possession of an "assault rifle?" What about the decorated Iraqi veteran who was just arrested in upstate NY over possession of 5 PMags? I understand that you don't like the law and don't want to enforce it. But as an LEO, you are expected to enforce the law. I agree that it puts you in a terrible position, and I don't necessarily have a solution for you (I agree that "quit" and "move to a free state" are terrible, unrealistic choices). I hope that you will make the "right choice," whatever that is, if you are ever tested. I also hope it never comes to that. Thank you for your support and keep fighting the good fight. |
|
Quoted:
Just to illustrate what OP is saying. How do you feel when you tell people your are from NY and they treat you as if you are of the same mind as Bloomberg and Cuomo. A lot of pro-gun LEO's are walking a thin line as it is, why make it more difficult for them. Ha, funny you should mention that. I have been looking for a good deal on a shotgun that I want (Winchester SXP Defender) so I have been checking gunbroker and slickguns off and on. I found a guy selling one on gunbroker and his disclaimer says check your state laws before bidding (which is fine), but then he says he won't sell to CA, NY and a couple other states. So I emailed him asking why since the gun is perfectly legal, even under the new law. His response was that he won't sell anything to CA or NY because of "their stupid laws." So I responded back saying that was interesting and that I could understand not wanting to sell to someone in the government that had a hand in the law making, but not selling to a law abiding citizen who has nothing to do with laws that were passed seems a little bit harsh. No response from him. |
|
In the future only "law enforcement" will have weapons and "citizens" will be at the complete mercy of a ruling elite. This is already underway in NY. That's what the argument is about, the future where there will be a few in charge, the muscle that keeps them there and the masses who live under the eye of a drone and the end of a gun. It's happened all throughout history and can happen here. Phoney wars on drugs and terror have done nothing but strip people of their rights and made our society more militant than its ever been.
People should stop being told what to think or who is on their "side". It is pretty clear to many what is coming for the next couple generations of people. Everyone sold out for cheap crap at Walmart, new cars every couple years and a nice pension. Best just enjoy the time everyone has left. |
|
Quoted:
It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. I wish I could say yeah, it's that, but look around in the threads covering the things I spoke of, and you'll see how much contempt there is for the individual over said governing bodies. |
|
I will turn 180° and support all LEO when the swear they are not going to act or enforce these new bull crap laws. Until then, yes they are the enemy. They will be the people arresting me and putting me in jail for imaginary reasons. If you have any ways to keep them from doing these things, I am all ears. I am sorry it sounds the way it does, it just is the cold hard truth. Quoted: It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. |
|
Quoted: I think this sums it up very well. There is also the issue of the PBAs and the FOP trying to get active cops and retired cops exempt for personally owned firearms/magazines, while not caring about everyone else. It sends the message that cops do not care about average citizens. It sends a message of elitism.I understand your perspective and I appreciate your support. I know you're not fighting for "us," since you could very well cease being an LEO for one reason or other and have these laws apply to you, just as they would apply to your family. I know there are plenty in such positions of authority who do not approve of these gun-bans and put themselves on the line to oppose them. But, unfortunately, there are many that do not, and that's why I think some LEOs get flack. Somebody here has a signature that explains their distrust of LEOs: something to the effect that they do not trust a stranger with the power to completely destroy their lives. I understand that you may not be one of them, but the problem is with the system, and LEOs are agents of that system. Supporting the actions of Larue does not equate to hate for law enforcement. I'm happy and pleased that Larue (and others) decided not to sell to LE what LE would be tasked with enforcing the general population from owning. I support LEOs and I understand what they do is important, but that's a good way to send a message to the politicians and the "top brass" that supports these disarmament schemes, and groups like the "Fraternal Order of Police" that are on the wrong side of this issue. You may not like the SAFE act, and you may not be enthusiastic about enforcing it, but when push comes to shove, how many of your fellow LEOs will decide to disobey authority and put their own jobs/freedoms on the line because they don't personally agree with arresting Joe Smith for possession of an "assault rifle?" What about the decorated Iraqi veteran who was just arrested in upstate NY over possession of 5 PMags? I understand that you don't like the law and don't want to enforce it. But as an LEO, you are expected to enforce the law. I agree that it puts you in a terrible position, and I don't necessarily have a solution for you (I agree that "quit" and "move to a free state" are terrible, unrealistic choices). I hope that you will make the "right choice," whatever that is, if you are ever tested. I also hope it never comes to that. Thank you for your support and keep fighting the good fight. |
|
I'll just add what I've been saying since the beginning (recognizing, this IS a hard decision for me, personally).
I am not the typical cop-bashing type by any stretch. I have more LE friends than most people in LE. And while every government and LE agency has undeniable potential to be misused by the powers, and I bear that in mind, I am not anti-LE in any sense. I strongly support the cops around me, and have found almost all of them to be some of the most stand up people I've ever met. Some people here have a personal grudge against LE, and that needs to stop. Lumping all LEOs together is ignorant. Moreover, not all cops are anti-2A. Most upstate are probably very pro-2A! Some of our best allies in this fight are LE who not only put their lives on the line at work, but then put their careers and reputations on the line by standing up for OUR collective rights. I appreciate that, and never want to lose it. The cop-bashing here I have no patience for. However - the powers at be have drawn a line between LE and the "common folk." They've done so purposefully -- strategically. Accordingly, there are going to be times when an "us vs. them" comparisson is simply unavoidable. It's not personal, and it doesn't mean we don't support LE in every possible way. But when you're discussing gun rights, and two parties have different rights, there is simply no way to avoid drawing a line. That's not bashing. There's a respectful way to have the discussion, and that's what needs to take place. And there's a way to protect and support LE in the process, and that's what has to happen. Encouraging companies like ArmaLite and LaRue not to see to LE has NOTHING to do personally with us vs. them. It has everything to do with leveraging the state goverment, and encouraging a change whereby some folks' constitutional rights are not more equal than others'. I'm not a PO, but I do have certain PL and CPL weapons exemptions on account of status with the state. Frankly, when I'm not working, I don't deserve them. Of course, we all DO deserve them. But I shouldn't be exempt when my neighbor is not. I'm in this fight regardless -- whether exempt from x requirement, or not. But frankly, if losing an exemption is what I have to do to motivate the umpteen other exempt people around me to fight for what's right -- then that's what's required, and I'll fight like mad for it. We stand together, or we hang separately. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. I wish I could say yeah, it's that, but look around in the threads covering the things I spoke of, and you'll see how much contempt there is for the individual over said governing bodies. There is that too. And that has to stop. It won't, but it should. But you'll find that contempt for all sorts of folks, from all sorts of folks, in all sorts of places. It's the unreasonableness of human nature. We should all do everything we can to kill those unreasonable sentiments, especially in a community like this. But let's not throw out the legitimate actions with the bathwater. |
|
OP...
I feel the same as you. I even removed my location from my info. I did this because, being from NY, we get shit on all the time. Then the proverbial, "Just Move!" comes out. I am sick of it too. I have also written letters, and will uphold the Constitution of the USA. Thanks for putting my feelings into words... I usually don't say shit. |
|
Although I've never been part of to "us vs them" mentality in all of this, I do feel LEO being subject to the same laws as us fair, and I support the decision of the companies refusing to sell to LEO.
If you truly do feel as strongly as you say, I encourage you to start a LEO group who will openly oppose and speak out against the law. How about you name it something like "NYS Police against SAFE." Start a website and start going to rallies. I also encourage you and your fellow brothers who feel the same way to take off from work on Feb 28th, in the same way we are, and be there to support the cause. I'm happy you say you're on our side, but you guys have more leverage than we do. When you put your money where your mouth is I will salute you. Who knows, maybe "NYS Police against SAFE" can become a huge reason why SAFE gets overturned. Cheers. |
|
I have soldiers in the immediate family and I have spoken to several cops regarding this law. They all say they disagree but when backed into a corner and asked directly if they would stack up on my house at 3am because my guns weren't registered they get all squirmy and evasive.
Every job has pluses and minuses. In NY the minuses just got bigger. You are the physical enforcement arm of a government that just passed an illegal law, in the middle of the night, without due process. It's that simple. You wanted the job, you got the job, you took the oath of a sworn officer, and assumed the public trust. Those are some of the heaviest burdens a man will ever take on, and I respect that, a lot in fact. Now, the only question is do you have the fortitude to honor the promise you made? Or was that just something you said so you could wear a badge? Are you a man of principal and honor or have you been bought by the system? These questions are hard and direct but don't mistake them for "cop bashing" because that isn't the intent, these same questions apply to national guardsmen. You have a job that carries immense power in our community, and with that comes this immense burden. I do not envy you Sir. If the majority of cops told the boss "no" and stood with gun owners it would send shock waves through this state. Cops of every stripe have so much potential power in this debate. And you would never pay for your own drinks again. 
|
|
Quoted:
I will turn 180° and support all LEO when the swear they are not going to act or enforce these new bull crap laws. Until then, yes they are the enemy. They will be the people arresting me and putting me in jail for imaginary reasons. If you have any ways to keep them from doing these things, I am all ears. I am sorry it sounds the way it does, it just is the cold hard truth. Quoted:
It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. I have already addressed the people you speak of. But you are foolish to put all in the same category like that. Innocent/good people, both LEO and Not, will die because of people thinking that way. And only the good ones. If you can live with killing a cop/father/husband who wouldn't dream of confiscating your weapons or arresting you for possessing them, then you are lost. "But I didn't say that!" Yes you fucking did. And as far as that cop exodus scenario you spoke of on condition of you doing a 180, if you really think something like that would happen, you've not an ounce of tact or strategy in you. But I don't think you really hope or expect or believe something like that would happen since usually, in my experience, those who speak in such absolutes aren't the type to perform a 180 in how they think. Cold hard truth, after all. |
|
In medieval Europe the aristocracy and free men carried weapons. The peons and slaves did not under penalty of death. What Cuomo did with a stroke of a pen is to create the new aristocracy and new peon class. LEOs are the free men. The rest are peons with penalty hanging over their heads. And the peons are feeling restless. They are angry at the rulers. They want to be free. It's as simple as that.
It is easy to say that we shouldn't be angry. You're not feeling what we're feeling. Sure, you disagree with the law and are there fighting it. But you are not threatened with felony convictions, with ammo restrictions, with mandatory insurance. You're not going to get arrested, even though at the moment you are committing a felony in NY State by carrying 15-rd magazine in your duty weapon. If you want to walk with the people, take that mag out of your gun. Get a 10-rd mag and load it to 7. Convince your department to do the same. Publicly refuse to enforce the law. Start a strike, you're unionized. You can do more than what we can do. Let's do it. |
|
Another political group like the one some of you are suggesting will only result in two things. Redundancy to no avail, and a bunch of guys out of a job. You're forgetting the part where I said, we have to be there for everyone else too. You're not gonna foot the bills and put food on the tables and roofs over the heads of the guys that go with what is ultimately a matter of misery loves company.
You can tell because the guys suggesting it word such, ensures in such a way that it comes off like they know it won't happen. Issuing a challenge they know cannot be won. What did it accomplish when all the sheriffs, whom the elite cannot terminate and be rid of, got together and said "this law sucks, we will not enforce it."? Nothing happened. Why would it be any different coming from the cops that the elite CAN terminate? You realize police "unions" aren't the same as labor unions, right? That legally, we cannot strike, in the name of maintaining law and order otherwise. This shit ain't robocop damnit. There are more strategic ways to make effective use of us in the long term, all things considered. |
| You work for THEM. THEY sign your check. When the SHTF we will see where your loyalty lies!!!! I bet most will continue to work for king cuomo despite what they say here. If you were guaranteed freedom, weapons, your paycheck and safety for your wife and kids...why would you be out fighting with us mere peasants??? I'll believe it when I see it |
|
Quoted:
Another political group like the one some of you are suggesting will only result in two things. Redundancy to no avail, and a bunch of guys out of a job. You're forgetting the part where I said, we have to be there for everyone else too. You're not gonna foot the bills and put food on the tables and roofs over the heads of the guys that go with what is ultimately a matter of misery loves company. You can tell because the guys suggesting it word such, ensures in such a way that it comes off like they know it won't happen. Issuing a challenge they know cannot be won. What did it accomplish when all the sheriffs, whom the elite cannot terminate and be rid of, got together and said "this law sucks, we will not enforce it."? Nothing happened. Why would it be any different coming from the cops that the elite CAN terminate? There are more strategic ways to make effective use of us in the long term, all things considered. Well, I doubt you'll be terminated if you put a different mag into your gun and load it to 7. After all you're just complying with the current regulation. Maybe this should be brought up at the next PBA meeting. |
|
Quoted:
You work for THEM. THEY sign your check. When the SHTF we will see where your loyalty lies!!!! I bet most will continue to work for king cuomo despite what they say here. If you were guaranteed freedom, weapons, your paycheck and safety for your wife and kids...why would you be out fighting with us mere peasants??? I'll believe it when I see it Do utility workers get the same shit from you? I mean, they work for "the man" too. I could just as well say "Well you're from New York so you're a liberal cocksucker sack of shit that voted for Obama and thus endorse socialized health care, gun control, foreign aid to terrorist organizations, and the EPA! Fuck you commie, you deserve the worst when the system crashes!" Generalization's a bitch ain't it? Taking the oath and wearing the uniform doesnt mean it's okay to shit on us and say guilty by association, guilty until proven otherwise. I don't work that way, and I like to think I live up to the standards expected of me. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You work for THEM. THEY sign your check. When the SHTF we will see where your loyalty lies!!!! I bet most will continue to work for king cuomo despite what they say here. If you were guaranteed freedom, weapons, your paycheck and safety for your wife and kids...why would you be out fighting with us mere peasants??? I'll believe it when I see it Do utility workers get the same shit from you? I mean, they work for "the man" too. I could just as well say #ell you're from New York so you're a liberal cocksucker sack of shit that voted for Obama and thus endorse socialized health care, gun control, foreign aid to terrorist organizations, and the EPA! Fuck you commie!" Generalization's a bitch ain't it? Taking the oath and wearing the uniform doesnt mean it's okay to shit on us and say guilty by association, guilty until proven otherwise. I don't work that way, and I like to think I live up to the standards expected of me. If its good enough for you and your boss its good enough for me. You all treat us like we are guilty until proven innocent anyways so why cant we do the same? get off your high horse!!!! Until the time comes and you take your uniform off...your still one of them. Now go load your 7 round mags like the rest of us mere peasants. |
|
Christ it's almost as bad as debating a liberal.
Your assumptions are wayward, friend. I have never met you or treated you that way. I've never treated anyone that way. Zero civilian complaints for me. I don't know if other cops or courts have treated you that way, and it sucks if they have. But I did not want this law. I did not write it. I will not comply with it. I am not of that minority that would. Check your fire, aim higher. |
|
OP, I'm going to be honest after the first sentence, I didn't read much of it, i skimmed a little. It was to long of a rant for my taste.
Anytime LEO can do/own something regular people can't it pisses some people off. When this rift becomes great people get more pissed. Couple this with the fact that law enforcement (certainly nationally) have become more militarized, and there have been many cases of police abuse caught on tape... it puts a bad taste in someones mouth. One bad apple really does spoil the bunch. I didn't even mention the police chiefs that support unconstitutional laws... Check your fire aim higher sounds a lot like the nuremberg defense... the buck stops with each individual. Saying you're boss told you to do something is no excuse, when you are asked to do something you know is unconstitutional. |
|
Quoted:
OP, I'm going to be honest after the first sentence, I didn't read much of it, i skimmed a little. It was to long of a rant for my taste. Anytime LEO can do/own something regular people can't it pisses some people off. When this rift becomes great people get more pissed. Couple this with the fact that law enforcement (certainly nationally) have become more militarized, and there have been many cases of police abuse caught on tape... it puts a bad taste in someones mouth. One bad apple really does spoil the bunch. I didn't even mention the police chiefs that support unconstitutional laws... Check your fire aim higher sounds a lot like the nuremberg defense... the buck stops with each individual. Saying you're boss told you to do something is no excuse, when you are asked to do something you know is unconstitutional. Beach head I'm gonna ignore your post like you did mine until you read all of what I said and realize why your assumptive response was wrong and had nothing to do with what I said. Thanks for playing. |
|
Quoted:
I was born and raised a New Yorker. I owned my first AR and lurked around here long before I was LEO. I have always been on your side in this fight for our rights, not just the 2nd, but for the entire Constitution and the Republic, if we can keep it. I am not alone. Having said that; I am sick and tired of seeing LEO now being demonized and vilified by my own people, perpetuating the very same "Us vs. Them" mentality that people complain of cops harboring, against those we swore an oath to serve and protect. It needs to stop. It is causing a divide between us that is only going to weaken our numbers, and thusly, our strength. I have read several threads that exemplify this. The LaRue thread, the Armalite thread, the Olympic Arms thread. All of them have one thing in common: a reaction that, in summary, amounts to "Yeah! Fuck the cops, they can burn!" Even our own HTF forum mod, that made a "no cop bashing" notice in this forum, jumped into that dog pile in the Armalite thread. I personally can only speak for myself, my partners at work, and a handful of others I work with. But I know those among you either are also LEO, or have friends and family that are LEO. You KNOW that we are on your side, and al ways have been. Do the math, look around, and you will find a majority of honest boots on the ground officers support you, and we consider ourselves on the same team as you. We wrote letters. We wrote emails. We made calls after calls. We donated to the NRA. We fought to educate people on social media. We went to rallies. We exhausted ourselves at every avenue. The SAFE Act happened anyway, and when it passed, we were just as furious and angry as you all were. First I was told, "don't worry, LEO will be exempt," and I said, that's not good enough. When the letter came around to print, sign, and mail to Cuomo asking for him to amend the SAFE Act law to add exemptions for active and retired LEO, I refused to take part in that, as did several others. We didn't care if it pissed coworkers off. We said, this isn't enough, it excludes the law abiding. When the PBA President shot his mouth off demanding an AWB and "high capacity" mag restrictions, speaking on behalf of all Police Officers in the department without even consulting his fellow delegates, before the Commissioner had even said anything in regards to Sandy Hook, I was enraged! I took to facebook and linked the article and declared, "Pat Lynch does not speak for us all!" I am not speaking as an officer upset over the recent refusal to sell policies put in place by several companies; I've got mine, and if it came down to it, I would help you get yours. If you have it already, I would expect you to keep it, and be disappointed if you didn't. I expect you to keep as many rounds in your magazines as they can accept. I am not coming to take these things away from you. I haven't met a coworker or cop from my department otherwise that wants to confiscate them either. But I do know they are out there. I'm ashamed to have to work among them. But they are part of a small group, usually consisting of the upper brass and the political elite you see on TV endorsing these unconstitutional legislations. The same scenario exists for our military. But we shan't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch. When they step forward to do evil and wrong, they will be known, and they will be dealt with. The majority of cops and soldiers, sometimes the two groups overlapping with veterans and reservists, are on your side, have your back, and will not take arms against you, regardless of what designs the upper echelons may be scheming. What I have a problem with is the misguided anger and frustrations being directed at us, as though we wrote and passed these laws, and have designs to disarm you. That is not true, and you know this. "Check your fire, aim higher." It means instead of throwing the flack at us, who are just as upset about these things as you are, focus that at the legislators that come up with this shit and pass in the dark of night, sneaky and dishonest. "Oh but by wearing that uniform you are standing with and endorsing what they're pushing, and if you were really 'with us,' you would either quit or find work in a free state." Shut up, idiot. That is the stupidest cop-out excuse I have heard, not to mention dangerous. You either hate cops to begin with and have a huge chip on your shoulder, or you're dumb. You know our hands are tied. You know that this isn't the only thing we go to work for. You know that there are other people that choose not to own firearms, for whichever reason, that still like and want for the police to be there, and we want to be there for them, to serve and protect. And we do it happily, without expecting any of you to volunteer and answer the domestic violence, robbery, and assault calls, just to name a few. Please try to remember that. We have to be here for everybody, even you, and we volunteered to do it. But that doesn't automatically put us in the same camp as those that seek to disarm the public. Consider, since we've established that the multitude of us are with you, you want us on the inside. We are more useful to you that way in the sense of force multiplication. Just something to think about. I have been asked, what gives cops the right to be better armed than civilians? There's this little thing called escalation that happens when criminals, real wrong doing criminals, procure better armament and equipment than the police are currently afforded, that necessitates police upgrading their own tools and equipment. At that point, we didn't turn around, look at you, and say "But they can't have it." When the socialist/power hungry and lala land head up their ass leftists and liberals that hold a majority in places like this are visited by the good idea fairy, or let their emotions get the better of them, they either think to truly disarm their "subjects," or they think they're going to protect everybody, and that's how sweeping bans happen. Instead of making laws that target the criminals, they make blanketing, broad stroke legislation that punishes everybody. It sucks, and we all hate it, and it's not okay. But when I see people giving Armalite a hard time, saying "you're not going to sell to law abiding citizens but will sell to the people that will use those weapons to disarm us," I think, "this is crazy, do they really believe that?" When we go home, or at least when I go home, I'm one of you. I'm not a buff that puffs his chest out 24/7. I'm not special, none of us think we are. We don't think we're better than you. Have we used exemptions to our advantage to get better equipped stuff? Of course, we aren't stupid, principles in that regard won't help anybody in a gun fight unless you die and become a martyr. But you'd be fools to think we didn't have extra available for our non LEO friends and family. I'm sure, to a cop like me somewhere, some of you are included in that group. This is where punishing the individual instead of the departments that would serve these legislators and enforce their unconstitutional legislation is really a problem. Right now, with baited breath, we watch the courts to see where this will go next. And we sit right next to you on the edges of our seats. I knew this was coming. I've known for years. How and why is another story, but the lack of clarity surrounding it can be maddening. I know how frustrated you all feel. I feel the same. I know how badly you want for there to be a clear cut "bad guy" to aim and vent your anger at, because it makes it easier to focus. But it's not us. It's not the rank and file boots on the ground that live and work in the same communities as you. Do not punish and wish for hateful things upon us, when we do not seek to harm you or your rights or your ability to defend them. Check your fire, aim higher. We sit in the same foxhole as you. Amen brother |
|
Good thread, nice read.
I work with a couple of retired LEO's. One is a staunch opponent of "the peoples right", specifically 2A. In my experience, people that have actually been shot all by full auto AK's in housing projects, and dealt with baby rapers, drug pushers, violent felons and criminals all of their careers hold people in contempt or at least look at people differently. Often casting suspiscion on everone even on those that dont deserve it. This fellow actually believes that no person should own any gun, let alone an AK, AR or pistol. On the other hand is my neighbor, an active duty detective and fellow gun enthusiast that I reload with and have been known to break out our collections to "ooh and ahh" over. I dont bash cops, I believe their job is difficult enough, but just like any other segment of society there are people that are with you and people that oppose what you believe. 1 guy tells me that due to extensive police training only LEO and retired should be allowed to own and another says the only time he REALLY fears for his life is during police shooting evaluations when 1/2 of the cops cant even hit the man sized silouette at 21 feet and instead shoot the ground 4 feet in front of the target stand. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I will turn 180° and support all LEO when the swear they are not going to act or enforce these new bull crap laws. Until then, yes they are the enemy. They will be the people arresting me and putting me in jail for imaginary reasons. If you have any ways to keep them from doing these things, I am all ears. I am sorry it sounds the way it does, it just is the cold hard truth. Quoted: It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. I have already addressed the people you speak of. But you are foolish to put all in the same category like that. Innocent/good people, both LEO and Not, will die because of people thinking that way. And only the good ones. If you can live with killing a cop/father/husband who wouldn't dream of confiscating your weapons or arresting you for possessing them, then you are lost. "But I didn't say that!" Yes you fucking did. And as far as that cop exodus scenario you spoke of on condition of you doing a 180, if you really think something like that would happen, you've not an ounce of tact or strategy in you. But I don't think you really hope or expect or believe something like that would happen since usually, in my experience, those who speak in such absolutes aren't the type to perform a 180 in how they think. Cold hard truth, after all. Im sorry the truth hurts soo much for you. Until you guarantee you are not going to act on these laws you are FULLY supporting them. Thats what the LEO collective community is saying. Thats it. |
|
Well this thread is going swimmingly so far.
Cliff's notes for those keeping score at home: The OP correctly identifies the ill's of the "us vs them" mentality, calls for all who would believe in it to question their own motives and then commences to shitting on people's responses and acting like a cop on the internet. Well played sir, well played. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You work for THEM. THEY sign your check. When the SHTF we will see where your loyalty lies!!!! I bet most will continue to work for king cuomo despite what they say here. If you were guaranteed freedom, weapons, your paycheck and safety for your wife and kids...why would you be out fighting with us mere peasants??? I'll believe it when I see it Do utility workers get the same shit from you? I mean, they work for "the man" too. I could just as well say "Well you're from New York so you're a liberal cocksucker sack of shit that voted for Obama and thus endorse socialized health care, gun control, foreign aid to terrorist organizations, and the EPA! Fuck you commie, you deserve the worst when the system crashes!" Generalization's a bitch ain't it? Taking the oath and wearing the uniform doesnt mean it's okay to shit on us and say guilty by association, guilty until proven otherwise. I don't work that way, and I like to think I live up to the standards expected of me. You can't see the difference? The utility worker can't enforce an illegal law, kick in my door, handcuff my family and drag me off to jail. I'm not saying you will do that, but you're not saying you won't. It's not disrespectful, or flack, or cop bashing. I am asking you, "where do you stand"? "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense. I am behind the police officers of my state in every way, you do a tough job, a job that needs to be done and you do it well. Unfortunately our government has seen fit to put us at this crossroads, to make millions of us criminals with the stroke of a pen. You will be exempted, there is no doubt, and there is no doubt why. Your life isn't worth more than mine, or more than the life of a single mother, but your loyalty is. I am sorry that you(all cops) are in this position, but you are being used and manipulated. In my life I have noticed that when faced with very tough decisions, the correct decision is rarely the easy one. I hope you all have the wisdom to make the correct one if it comes to that. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I will turn 180° and support all LEO when the swear they are not going to act or enforce these new bull crap laws. Until then, yes they are the enemy. They will be the people arresting me and putting me in jail for imaginary reasons. If you have any ways to keep them from doing these things, I am all ears. I am sorry it sounds the way it does, it just is the cold hard truth. Quoted:
It isn't about LEOs. The boycotts are about punishing state and local governments. I have already addressed the people you speak of. But you are foolish to put all in the same category like that. Innocent/good people, both LEO and Not, will die because of people thinking that way. And only the good ones. If you can live with killing a cop/father/husband who wouldn't dream of confiscating your weapons or arresting you for possessing them, then you are lost. "But I didn't say that!" Yes you fucking did. And as far as that cop exodus scenario you spoke of on condition of you doing a 180, if you really think something like that would happen, you've not an ounce of tact or strategy in you. But I don't think you really hope or expect or believe something like that would happen since usually, in my experience, those who speak in such absolutes aren't the type to perform a 180 in how they think. Cold hard truth, after all. Im sorry the truth hurts soo much for you. Until you guarantee you are not going to act on these laws you are FULLY supporting them. Thats what the LEO collective community is saying. Thats it. Count how many times I've said that already in this thread. Consider all the others I've spoken for that I know are good for it. And now factor in all the NY Sheriffs that spoke against it. Then tell me what the LEO collective community is saying. Or, you truly are lost and just don't like law enforcement in general, and are using this situation as an excuse to speak such nonsense. I have explained to you at length, multiple times, that I and many others are not going to stand for this any more than a law abiding man in his right mind would. The gist of your replies has been "lalalala not listening fuck you," and thus giving me reason to wonder if you are in fact in your right mind. |
|
I think when it comes down to it...if you run into an LEO and you have an "illegal" EBR or magazine...it depends on where you live...and what branch you run into...and who in particular you run into.
I'm pretty sure my county sheriffs aren't going to give a flyin' f*&k. We don't have local police where I live. The state police are who I am concerned about. |
|
Quoted:
You can't see the difference? The utility worker can't enforce an illegal law, kick in my door, handcuff my family and drag me off to jail. I'm not saying you will do that, but you're not saying you won't. I am asking you, "where do you stand"? "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense. In my life I have noticed that when faced with very tough decisions, the correct decision is rarely the easy one. I hope you all have the wisdom to make the correct one if it comes to that. 1.) I believe I very much did say I wouldn't do that. Aside from that, I work way uptown in NYC, even though I live on Long Island. I've yet to see a single person arrested for any firearm possession or related charge that wasn't already a repeat offender/felony recidivist/drug pusher/gang member/etc. Basically, the kind of person you wouldn't want having a gun, and the kind you would want to see behind bars. 2.) My whole OP explained where I stand, how did you miss that? 3.) I never said "I was just following orders," nor did I endorse it. I never even mentioned it. "Check your fire, aim higher," the "aim higher" part meaning focus your energy into the legislators up top that come up with and pass these laws. Trust me, I've turned down plenty of arrests in the past I didn't feel comfortable taking that were being pushed on my by shady ass supervisors, who turned around and found a vindictive way to punish me for my defiance. I dealt with it and persevered. 4.) Then we must all be prepared to be labeled the bad guy by the majority at large, in one fashion or another, for a long time, provided we survive long enough to see past that period. Think real hard about what I'm getting at with that one. In all honestly, and it pains me to say it cause I know there are guys just like me among them, I firmly believe that only the NYSP will be the ones attempting to enforce this, if they deem the risk is worth it, and enough guys show up to work to take part in it. But the upstate gentlemen here can better speak to the likelihood of that happening, and testify to NYSP officers' character and feelings in regards. I've only been pulled over by them once, and the guy didn't give me any problems. Not like Nassau highway; those guys are dicks to everybody 
|
|
The whole "if I can't have it you shouldn't be able to either" attitude is retarded. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WANT TO TAKE 2A RIGHTS FROM A NYS CITIZEN!!! The majority of LEO's in NY support citizen 2A rights and oppose the SAFE act.
Those in uniform with powers of arrest don't write the laws but they still require "assault weapons" to perform their job both on and off duty. The job of protecting NY State will still need to be performed regardless of if a few manufactures deny their products to LEO's. I would think that those here would demand that NYS LEO's have the best equipment to keep that Officer safe. |
|
Quoted:
The whole "if I can't have it you shouldn't be able to either" attitude is retarded. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WANT TO TAKE 2A RIGHTS FROM A NYS CITIZEN!!! The majority of LEO's in NY support citizen 2A rights and oppose the SAFE act. Those in uniform with powers of arrest don't write the laws but they still require "assault weapons" to perform their job both on and off duty. The job of protecting NY State will still need to be performed regardless of if a few manufactures deny their products to LEO's. I would think that those here would demand that NYS LEO's have the best equipment to keep them safe. BULLSHIT!!!!! They work for the government!!! If they need stuff we dont so bad then the office can supply them with it when they get to work and collect those things when they leave at night. They are no better then the rest of us. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The whole "if I can't have it you shouldn't be able to either" attitude is retarded. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WANT TO TAKE 2A RIGHTS FROM A NYS CITIZEN!!! The majority of LEO's in NY support citizen 2A rights and oppose the SAFE act. Those in uniform with powers of arrest don't write the laws but they still require "assault weapons" to perform their job both on and off duty. The job of protecting NY State will still need to be performed regardless of if a few manufactures deny their products to LEO's. I would think that those here would demand that NYS LEO's have the best equipment to keep them safe. BULLSHIT!!!!! They work for the government!!! If they need stuff we dont so bad then the office can supply them with it when they get to work and collect those things when they leave at night. They are no better then the rest of us. Nope. Many Officers are required to purchase their own weapon and respond to calls while off duty. |
|
One of the main problems with this law...is it created instant distrust between we citizens...and LEO's.
Prior to this...I would imagine most of us didn't have a problem with LEOs. but now that we are on the verge of being made instant felons...we imagine LEOs taking our guns, putting us in jail ,and breaking down our doors...things of that magnitude. That's serious shit to have on your mind. Most people here are a little more than upset and rightfully so. I've had some sleepless nights over this law. The purpose of state government is not to scare the shit out of millions of people in the state with this law. Which is exactly what they've done. And it has not done one other thing other than that. |
|
Actions speak louder than words. Until you prove yourself otherwise some of us who don't wear the blue/grey/black
will continue to have an "us" and "them" attitude. All the words and sentiments you type here don't mean shit. It's what you do that matters. So are you gonna "enforce" the unconstitutional SAFE Act or not? Only you can answer that. |
|
Quoted: If "assault weapons" have no place in the hands of citizens and are only weapons of the battlefield then they have no place in the hands of officers on NY streets. It can't work both ways if the politicians truly believe these firearms are only for mass killing then so be it but last I checked LEO aren't tasked with mass killings. If a pistol with 7 rounds or bolt action rifle is sufficient to keep me safe then it should be sufficient for everyone else in the state. Correct me if I am wrong but when is the last time an officer had to shoot more then 7 bad guys at once? I mean according to Cuomo these banned weapons kill a person with every shot. Just because you have a badge doesn't make you more equal then the rest of us animals. Quoted: Quoted: The whole "if I can't have it you shouldn't be able to either" attitude is retarded. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN YOU WANT TO TAKE 2A RIGHTS FROM A NYS CITIZEN!!! The majority of LEO's in NY support citizen 2A rights and oppose the SAFE act. Those in uniform with powers of arrest don't write the laws but they still require "assault weapons" to perform their job both on and off duty. The job of protecting NY State will still need to be performed regardless of if a few manufactures deny their products to LEO's. I would think that those here would demand that NYS LEO's have the best equipment to keep them safe. BULLSHIT!!!!! They work for the government!!! If they need stuff we dont so bad then the office can supply them with it when they get to work and collect those things when they leave at night. They are no better then the rest of us. Nope. Many Officers are required to purchase their own weapon and respond to calls while off duty. Maybe if LEO had to go kick down doors with muskets they would throw their PBA and union officers out on their asses if they dared to support a leftist gun grab. Maybe if Cuomo and Barry had body guards equipped with a flint lock pistol they would think twice before imposing these laws on the common man. To the OP's point I don't bash LEO I have alot of friends in LEO. I feel for you all being put in a bad spot, but your not in any worse of a spot then the rest of us that are now threatened with becoming felons. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You can't see the difference? The utility worker can't enforce an illegal law, kick in my door, handcuff my family and drag me off to jail. I'm not saying you will do that, but you're not saying you won't. I am asking you, "where do you stand"? "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense. In my life I have noticed that when faced with very tough decisions, the correct decision is rarely the easy one. I hope you all have the wisdom to make the correct one if it comes to that. 1.) I believe I very much did say I wouldn't do that. Aside from that, I work way uptown in NYC, even though I live on Long Island. I've yet to see a single person arrested for any firearm possession or related charge that wasn't already a repeat offender/felony recidivist/drug pusher/gang member/etc. Basically, the kind of person you wouldn't want having a gun, and the kind you would want to see behind bars. 2.) My whole OP explained where I stand, how did you miss that? 3.) I never said "I was just following orders," nor did I endorse it. I never even mentioned it. "Check your fire, aim higher," the "aim higher" part meaning focus your energy into the legislators up top that come up with and pass these laws. Trust me, I've turned down plenty of arrests in the past I didn't feel comfortable taking that were being pushed on my by shady ass supervisors, who turned around and found a vindictive way to punish me for my defiance. I dealt with it and persevered. 4.) Then we must all be prepared to be labeled the bad guy by the majority at large, in one fashion or another, for a long time, provided we survive long enough to see past that period. Think real hard about what I'm getting at with that one. In all honestly, and it pains me to say it cause I know there are guys just like me among them, I firmly believe that only the NYSP will be the ones attempting to enforce this, if they deem the risk is worth it, and enough guys show up to work to take part in it. But the upstate gentlemen here can better speak to the likelihood of that happening, and testify to NYSP officers' character and feelings in regards. I've only been pulled over by them once, and the guy didn't give me any problems. Not like Nassau highway; those guys are dicks to everybody I'm glad to hear you say that, and if I missed it I apologies, you as an individual may be being treated like "you" as a cop(collectively) and that may be where some of the rub is. I agree that NYSP will be the governors tools for this enforcement, and that is very sad. NYSP in my experience are top notch men and women that do a great credit to the organization they represent. It wouldn't surpirse me at all if federal LEA found a way to involve themselves somehow. I have heard from several LEA that "it is the law, we must enforce it" and that to me is not right, that is the source of my "following orders" comment. There have been many laws that I haven't necessarily agreed with but I complied because they were legal laws and I am an upstanding, law abiding person. This is the first law in my lifetime that is so beyond the pale in it's scope and the manner in which it was passed that it truly is an illegal law. My hope lies with the courts, because every option after that is bad. You live on LI? You in Skelos' district? We need to vote that bastard out! I'm from upstate, to say people are pissed here would be a significant understatement, but know this, we are not anti-cop. We are hard working, honest, law abiding people, the kind of people you would WANT to have a gun.
Stay safe! |
|
Quoted:
Actions speak louder than words. Until you prove yourself otherwise some of us who don't wear the blue/grey/black will continue to have an "us" and "them" attitude. All the words and sentiments you type here don't mean shit. It's what you do that matters. So are you gonna "enforce" the unconstitutional SAFE Act or not? Only you can answer that. 1.) I hope you've never complained about us vs them in the past, cause that's wrong otherwise. 2.) I have answered that. Mind you, guys, I didn't come here to defend myself per se, I didn't do anything to you and can't see myself doing any wrong to you or bringing harm your way in regards to these laws. I've got nothing to prove outside of what I've already said, I know where my loyalties lie, and I've gone over that also a bunch in this thread. I'm trying to repair the rift that developed immediately after SAFE was passed, because the infighting among us (we're all New Yorkers here, aye?) isn't going to help us any, and to perpetuate it is to play into enemy hands. I've been facing an internal conflict of interest since this all started: I could leave and move to a free state and find work there, where this isn't an issue. But I feel obligated stay in the fight with my friends and family entrenched here. I'm still here. |
|
oxmav, you sound like one of the good guys -- proud to have you.
But if you work 'uptown,' for a certain large dept., then you must be familiar with the vastly large number of POs who would NOT be ready to find a way to can an arrest or deal with the resultant crap from a supervisor. Many guys (and girls) are simply going to take the arrest if their supervisor tells them rather than deal with crap (or worse, a potential CD, vacation hit, etc.). You noted that you've dealt with punishment over it -- but many won't. Plenty of guys in impact would be thrilled to take a gun collar, and are not going to hold back on philosophical grounds that they don't even adhere to. I've seen guys try to make a CPW out of a pocket knife, or simple seize it b/c the possessor was shady, intox, etc. We need guys like you in depts to school the next generation well. But you have to recognize that not everyone shares your conviction. In some areas, most do not. That's not a bash, a wholesale condemnation, or anything all that significant. Just a thought, on my part. All of this "cops can burn," "they're the man," etc, is a load of BS. And it needs to stop. Most cops are not "the man." They're citizens, just like us. I get that, and I agree with 99% of your OP. Just keep the flip side in mind when you deal with the skeptical but reasonable folks here. Lots of LEOs sit in the foxhole with us. But there are some that don't, and they will be the first ones that most interface with when it comes time to be branded felons. And all of this has nothing to do with the encouragement of companies not to sell to NYS/LE/LEOs. I firmly believe that you can be 100% of supportive of cops, not bash them or hold any ill feeling whatsoever, and yet employ leverage where it has to be employed. As I pointed out earlier, I'd gladly hand back any exemptions that I have outside of work if it means getting additional people to pay attention. ETA: from your last post. Thanks for doing what you can to bring is all together. The rift is a problem - we're all in this together, need to act that way. And sorry for the illegitimate anti-LE crap that has been posted in this thread. As some have pointed out to me over the last few days, you just have to ignore GD sometimes. The blind LE hating is much the same. |
|
Quoted:If "assault weapons" have no place in the hands of citizens and are only weapons of the battlefield then they have no place in the hands of officers on NY streets.
To the OP's point I don't bash LEO I have alot of friends in LEO. I feel for you all being put in a bad spot, but your not in any worse of a spot then the rest of us that are now threatened with becoming felons. Thanks for your support. But I wonder, what happens when legit/actual criminals get assault weapons and now we've lowered our means of dealing with them to nothing? I get your good for the goose/good for the gander point, but remember what I said in the OP. Escalation necessitates us having assault weapons, cause criminals had them first. Remember Hollywood. We don't want criminals to have them. But LEO personnel did not turn around and say normal people shouldn't have them though, not the kind of personnel I spoke of. We're prepared to face said criminals if they do have them, but the majority of the guys on the ground like I spoke of that support citizens' 2A rights, did not say they should not have them. The legislature and the brass did, and we're just as upset about it as you are. Check your fire, aim higher. For what it's worth, as far as "well why don't you carry 7 rounds", I'd trade in my G19 for a 1911 if they'd let me carry one and wouldn't feel the slightest disadvantaged by it. |
|
We all know there are good LEOs. There are plenty of you on this forum. I am fortunate to call a few "friend."
We also know there are some who will enforce unconstitutional laws and not bat an eyelash. Does the name "Nathan Haddad" ring a bell? Sadly, with the passage of this so-called law, a large rift has been created between civilians, the govt, and those who will be called upon to enforce the govt's commandments. |
|
Quoted:
We all know there are good LEOs. There are plenty of you on this forum. I am fortunate to call a few "friend." We also know there are some who will enforce unconstitutional laws and not bat an eyelash. Does the name "Nathan Haddad" ring a bell? Sadly, with the passage of this so-called law, a large rift has been created between civilians, the govt, and those who will be called upon to enforce the govt's commandments. +1 If you can believe the Government practices Social engineering then you should be accepting of the idea that these same engineers WANT a rift between those in uniform and those not. Does the militarization of our Police forces not further distinguish them from us? We've gone from the Cop on the beat that we all knew to some guy covered with ballistic gear carrying a SMG. Don't get me wrong for a second; there are plenty of shit-bags out there that need to be approached that way, but doing so in every case does not bode well with a public that more and more is becoming distrustful of its Government and its strongmen. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Check your fire, aim higher. (Page 1 of 2)
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.