Posted: 8/10/2018 10:47:48 AM EDT
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Lets discuss if Virginia’s concealed handgun permits allow a holder to legally conceal an AR pistol.
- My understanding is yes the VA CHP permit does allow AR pistols to be concealed. Do you agree or disagree? Also, my understanding is that an AR pistol may exceed 26” in overall length and still be considered a pistol as long as there is no vertical fore-grip. Thoughts? |
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Lets discuss if Virginia’s concealed handgun permits allow a holder to legally conceal an AR pistol. - My understanding is yes the VA CHP permit does allow AR pistols to be concealed. Do you agree or disagree? Also, my understanding is that an AR pistol may exceed 26” in overall length and still be considered a pistol as long as there is no vertical fore-grip. Thoughts? If they believe it is a long gun and concealed they may confiscate it and charge you. |
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I guess this hinges on what qualifies as a handgun under the Code of Virginia. The only definition I can find is vague at best. Do we know that Virginia follows whatever definitions/rules the ATF promulgates? That seems to be what the OP is implying. But that still means you have to go through the 'process.' And attorneys are expensive. Finding one that already knows the law (instead of learning it on your nickel) can be difficult. And then they still have to prepare a case. Expecting the average Deputy Sheriff or other policeman to understand may not go all that well. And then you can be left trying to get your gun released back to you. Some jurisdictions are fine, others are a royal PITA. |
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I guess this hinges on what qualifies as a handgun under the Code of Virginia. The only definition I can find is vague at best. Do we know that Virginia follows whatever definitions/rules the ATF promulgates? That seems to be what the OP is implying. Given that lawsuits are much more expensive than a pistol, I am not worried about confiscation. I want to stay legal and not violate VA state law. |
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A judge might if the Virginia definition is vague or unclear. But that still means you have to go through the 'process.' And attorneys are expensive. Finding one that already knows the law (instead of learning it on your nickel) can be difficult. And then they still have to prepare a case. Expecting the average Deputy Sheriff or other policeman to understand may not go all that well. And then you can be left trying to get your gun pleased back to you. Some jurisdictions are fine, others are a royal PITA. Quoted:
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I guess this hinges on what qualifies as a handgun under the Code of Virginia. The only definition I can find is vague at best. Do we know that Virginia follows whatever definitions/rules the ATF promulgates? That seems to be what the OP is implying. But that still means you have to go through the 'process.' And attorneys are expensive. Finding one that already knows the law (instead of learning it on your nickel) can be difficult. And then they still have to prepare a case. Expecting the average Deputy Sheriff or other policeman to understand may not go all that well. And then you can be left trying to get your gun pleased back to you. Some jurisdictions are fine, others are a royal PITA. |
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I guess this hinges on what qualifies as a handgun under the Code of Virginia. The only definition I can find is vague at best. Do we know that Virginia follows whatever definitions/rules the ATF promulgates? That seems to be what the OP is implying. |
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Quoted: Expecting a run-of-the-mill police officer to understand the details of pistol vs. rifle is going to be very hit or miss. If they believe it is a long gun and concealed they may confiscate it and charge you. |
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.)
Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. |
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. |
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. 
Great response. Thanks. 
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. I completely agree that it SHOULD meet that definition, but we're still back to square one, arguing that the weapon in question would indeed fall under that definition. |
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Quoted: I agree that's the definition, but I'm not aware of any binding case law that says that what we know as an AR pistol would be found to meet that definition. I completely agree that it SHOULD meet that definition, but we're still back to square one, arguing that the weapon in question would indeed fall under that definition. |
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18.2-308.2:2 VA code G. For purposes of this section: Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. G. For purposes of this section: Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. It is also part of 18.2-308.2:2 Definitions in one part of the VA Code in many cases do not extend to other parts of the code. |
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Quoted: 18.2-308.2:2 VA code Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. |
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Note the piece I added in BLUE. It is also part of 18.2-308.2:2 Definitions in one part of the VA Code in many cases do not extend to other parts of the code. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. G. For purposes of this section: Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. It is also part of 18.2-308.2:2 Definitions in one part of the VA Code in many cases do not extend to other parts of the code. |
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Good point. So legally speaking, it is unclear to me how VA defines a handgun regarding concealed handgun permits. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. G. For purposes of this section: Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. It is also part of 18.2-308.2:2 Definitions in one part of the VA Code in many cases do not extend to other parts of the code. For the most part 'legislative intent' is rarely used in Virginia legal analysis. Unlike the US Congress, Virginia does not take down every word said from the floor by a speaker. A 'summary' of activities is kept. What bill has been read, voted on, yeas and nays, etc. but nothing as detailed as the Congressional Record. You have to remember Virginia started long before pretty much anyone else in the 'New World.' |
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Quoted: Good point. So legally speaking, it is unclear to me how VA defines a handgun regarding concealed handgun permits. § 18.2-307.1. Definitions. As used in this article (Article 6.1, Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits), unless the context requires a different meaning: "Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand. See Va. Code § 18.2-307.1 Link to VA Code The question will be whether a judge will find that an AR pistol, as we know it, and as meets federal law, meets this definition such that it can be carried concealed pursuant to a valid Virginia (or other recognized state) CHP. I submit that a reasonable judge would adopt the federal definition regarding AR pistols, but you'll still have to prove that the weapon in question is indeed an AR pistol, meaning prove that it was a bare receiver or sold as a handgun, has never been a rifle, etc. |
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It's defined. § 18.2-307.1. Definitions. As used in this article (Article 6.1, Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits), unless the context requires a different meaning: "Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand. See Va. Code § 18.2-307.1 Link to VA Code The question will be whether a judge will find that an AR pistol, as we know it, and as meets federal law, meets this definition such that it can be carried concealed pursuant to a valid Virginia (or other recognized state) CHP. I submit that a reasonable judge would adopt the federal definition regarding AR pistols, but you'll still have to prove that the weapon in question is indeed an AR pistol, meaning prove that it was a bare receiver or sold as a handgun, has never been a rifle, etc. Quoted:
Quoted: Good point. So legally speaking, it is unclear to me how VA defines a handgun regarding concealed handgun permits. § 18.2-307.1. Definitions. As used in this article (Article 6.1, Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits), unless the context requires a different meaning: "Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand. See Va. Code § 18.2-307.1 Link to VA Code The question will be whether a judge will find that an AR pistol, as we know it, and as meets federal law, meets this definition such that it can be carried concealed pursuant to a valid Virginia (or other recognized state) CHP. I submit that a reasonable judge would adopt the federal definition regarding AR pistols, but you'll still have to prove that the weapon in question is indeed an AR pistol, meaning prove that it was a bare receiver or sold as a handgun, has never been a rifle, etc. This article may be cited as the "Sawed-Off Shotgun and Sawed-Off Rifle Act." |
| That is basically what I based my PDW build off of. AR mp5 9mm lower with 4.5" barrel and maxim pdw arm brace. no forward grip. Should be covered by LEOSA as well for officers. A lot of LEOs are building these now, I think more would understand than you would suspect. Thank god for sanity! |
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No. 18.2-307.1, not 18.2-307. 307.1 lays out definitions that cover the entire concealed handgun permit article. Quoted:
Quoted: Except the Article is § 18.2-307. Short title of article. This article may be cited as the "Sawed-Off Shotgun and Sawed-Off Rifle Act." 18.2-307.1, not 18.2-307. 307.1 lays out definitions that cover the entire concealed handgun permit article. It ONLY applies to THAT section of the law. It is NOT applied as a general definition. "ETA: § 18.2-307.1. Definitions. As used in this article, unless the context requires a different meaning:" Emphasis added. You cannot use Definitions from one Article for another generally. The order of numbering works just like on outline (though using a different system of assigning the actual numbering than a typical academic outline). It defines superior and inferior sections. |
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Quoted: You are citing the definitions for 18.2-307. It ONLY applies to THAT section of the law. It is NOT applied as a general definition. "ETA: § 18.2-307.1. Definitions. As used in this article, unless the context requires a different meaning:" Emphasis added. You cannot use Definitions from one Article for another generally. The order of numbering works just like on outline (though using a different system of assigning the actual numbering than a typical academic outline). It defines superior and inferior sections. 18.2-307.1 applies to all the FOLLOWING code sections, which are the Concealed Handgun statutes. 18.2-307.1 is in Article 6.1, NOT Article 6. "Used in this article" means used in Article 6.1. Title 18, Chapter 7, Article 6 is the Sawed Off Shotgun and Sawed Off Rifle Act. It includes §§ 18.2-299 through 18.2-307 Title 18, Chapter 7, Article 6.1 is the Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits Article. It includes §§ 182-307.1 through 18.2-308.016 Please go look for yourself. Further: Please consider the definitions that are in 18.2-307.1. They include: Ballistic Knife, Handgun, Law-Enforcement Officer, Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence, Personal Knowledge, and Spring Stick. These are terms used in Article 6.1, the concealed weapon article, not the sawed-off shotgun article. The definitions for the Sawed Off Shotgun Act (Article 6) are found in 18.2-299. They include: Sawed-off Shotgun, Sawed-off Rifle, Crime of Violence, and Person. These are terms used in Article 6, the Sawed Off Shotgun Act. It is absolutely clear that the definitions in 18.2-307.1 are for the Concealed Handgun Article. This is clear based both on this section's inclusion as the first section of Article 6.1, but also from a review of the definitions included in 18.2-307.1 and 18.2-299, and a comparison against the terms used in Articles 6 and 6.1. |
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They screwed up the indexing by having an inferior article (18.2 307) split across a superior article (Article 6. "Sawed-Off" Shotgun and "Sawed-Off" Rifle Act and Article 6.1. Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits).
Someone will eventually notice it, probably exploit it, and only then will they correct the error. Article 6. "Sawed-Off" Shotgun and "Sawed-Off" Rifle Act
§ 18.2-299 Definitions § 18.2-300 Possession or use of "sawed-off" shotgun or rifle§ 18.2-301 Repealed § 18.2-303 What article does not apply to § 18.2-303.1 What article does not prohibit § 18.2-304 Manufacturer's and dealer's register; inspection of stock § 18.2-305 Repealed § 18.2-306 Search warrants for "sawed-off" shotguns and rifles; confiscation and destruction § 18.2-307 Short title of article Article 6.1. Concealed Weapons and Concealed Handgun Permits § 18.2-307.1 Definitions Unless the legislature directly ordered them to do this. And that would take a complete review of the modifications to each section (Code 1950, § 18.1-268.9; 1968, c. 661; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1992, c. 580.) for 307 and (2013, c. 746.) for 307.1 along with the explicit text of each bill that modified the sections. |
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To further muddy the waters the VSP treats the Shockwave type of "not a shotgun" as a handgun for background check purposes.   Don't forget to vote y'all!
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I see your point, but the definitions in 307.1 clearly belong to Article 6.1. I think it's simply misnumbered. It matters since the titles, sections, and articles often have definitions for THAT article. And there are multiple uses of "article" throughout the code for different size sections (and subsections). |
| You cannot conceal a "firearm" /AR-15 pistol with overall length over 26" with a vertical grip installed for a two-handed hold as it would be a violation of federal law. The key word is conceal. If there is no second vertical grip then it's fine but if you conceal an AR-15 pistol with overall length over 26" with a second vertical grip, it becomes an AOW even if it's legal under state law. |
I wonder if Fairfax County Police will be able to make the distinction (on the side of the road) 
Virginia Citizens Defense League ALERT dated 09/25/18 Update - Fairfax County passes loaded long-gun prohibition :-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Not yet a Virginia Citizens Defense League member? Join VCDL at: https://vcdl.org/join ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VCDL's calendar: http://www.vcdl.org/meetings ----------------------------------------------------------------------l VA-ALERT archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/727/=now ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to thank the ten members who showed up tonight at the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors meeting to support VCDL's position against an ordinance that would prohibit loaded long guns in vehicles on public roads. I testified that based on a document provided to the Board by the Fairfax County Police Department, they should not pass the ban. The police said two reasons to pass the ban were: * a demonstration of interest in firearms regulation * an opportunity to educate residents about firearms safety I pointed out that neither of those reasons justifies making a new law. The police had two reasons not to pass the ban, both of which I agreed with: * no evidence of problems in Fairfax County related to the transportation of loaded shotguns and rifles * requires officers to manipulate the firearm to determine if the gun is loaded, which could compromise officer safety. I added that it could end up in a situation where an officer inadvertently shoots the guns owner because of a mistake when manipulating the gun One of our members who is a law-enforcement officer told the Board that officers are not trained on any guns but the ones they carry. So they might not know how to safely handle all the different long guns out there. The Fairfax County PD representative said the officers would be given training on a wide variety of guns if the ordinance passes. Oh, boy - that's going to be a time consuming and expensive proposition, if they do it right. Your tax dollars at work... For a minute it looked like the proposed ordinance was going to be improved when supervisor Cook proposed an amendment to exempt those carrying long guns for their safety. Supervisor Herrity seconded it. However, the Board voted the amendment down. Tyranny won out and the final ordinance passed UNANIMOUSLY. It will become effective on January 1, 2019. NOTE: simply having a long gun in your vehicle does NOT give the police the probable cause to see if it is loaded or not. But that's not a guarantee that they won't do so anyhow. VCDL is going to address the enabling law for this ordinance at the next General Assembly session, with the intent of making some improvements. |
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18.2-308.2:2 VA code Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. But since you can afford an attorney (and the fight to get the gun returned) go for it. |
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Quoted: Expecting every local cop to understand the nuances of what they are looking at is a real push. But since you can afford an attorney (and the fight to get the gun returned) go for it. On that note, I'm going to get rid of all my ARs and AKs. I do not want officers taking them away because they assumed they're full auto. Then I'm going to get rid of all my "high capacity" mags and mt Rem Tac14 so I don't land myself in jail as well. There's a real epidemic of these type of things happening around these parts. |
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18.2-308.2:2 VA code Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. While a court MAY look to them they are NOT required to follow them. And "Article" has a number of meanings in the numbering of Virginia laws. It directly applies to the law that was passed without question. THAT numbering is NOT the same as the major numbering of the overall system imposed by the UVA Law school in chapter numbering (one of the jobs they are assigned). |
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I agree that's the definition, but I'm not aware of any binding case law that says that what we know as an AR pistol would be found to meet that definition. I completely agree that it SHOULD meet that definition, but we're still back to square one, arguing that the weapon in question would indeed fall under that definition. Quoted:
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The term "handgun" means: Any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion from one or more barrels when held in one hand. (Section 18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia.) Simply put: if it's listed as a revolver or pistol on the 4473, it's a handgun. Or, if you take a receiver and make a handgun, it's a handgun. I completely agree that it SHOULD meet that definition, but we're still back to square one, arguing that the weapon in question would indeed fall under that definition. In general it does NOT. |
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A handgun with a vertical grip meets the federal definition of a AOW so you might be treading in a grey area trying to carry it under a CHP. Quoted:
Quoted: 18.2-308.2:2 VA code Verified. Thank you. Based on this VA legal handgun definition, an AR pistol of any overall length with no vertical foregrip is indeed a handgun in VA and thus covered by a VA CHP. Actually, one may argue a firearm such as an AR pistol with an OAL greater than 26” and a vertical foregrip may be valid for concealed carry with a VA CHP. |
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Fake news, and it's so not an issue. fear mongering "what if" that hasn't happened and that doesn't happen. If you have a carry permit and aren't committing a crime, nothing is going to happen other than the officer probably striking up conversation about guns and talking your ear off... On that note, I'm going to get rid of all my ARs and AKs. I do not want officers taking them away because they assumed they're full auto. Then I'm going to get rid of all my "high capacity" mags and mt Rem Tac14 so I don't land myself in jail as well. There's a real epidemic of these type of things happening around these parts. Quoted:
Quoted: Expecting every local cop to understand the nuances of what they are looking at is a real push. But since you can afford an attorney (and the fight to get the gun returned) go for it. On that note, I'm going to get rid of all my ARs and AKs. I do not want officers taking them away because they assumed they're full auto. Then I'm going to get rid of all my "high capacity" mags and mt Rem Tac14 so I don't land myself in jail as well. There's a real epidemic of these type of things happening around these parts. MOST police are NOT 'gun people.' The traffic guy (or foot patrol) that just stopped you is NOT likely to know the exact definition of a long gun or handgun under Federal (let alone state) law. And in this case he would be enforcing STATE law. State law can be tighter or looser than Federal law espceially in dealing with firearms. Under Federal law felons may not posses firearms. But many black powder muzzle loaders and cartridge guns are NOT 'firearms' under state law. Some states do restrict the use of muzzle loaders by felons. Others restrict cartridge black powder guns also. Any of those restrictions are valid in THAT state. Local police enforce LOCAL laws. County, city, and sometimes state. State police enforce mostly state laws but also can enforce city and county laws. In Virginia a state cop will arrest you for pot. Any amount of pot. A lower level local cop may let a small amount go by. So if you get caught on I-66 for speeding by teat state guy you can get in a whole lot more trouble than on the highway crossing I-66 by a county cop. |
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