Posted: 2/7/2010 6:28:43 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Yep, it's just not very good. Unless you like super heavy trigger pulls, and gas systems that are inherently flawed and cause random short strokes that can't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time. The trigger pull does suck, But I have never seen the short stroke problem you speak of, I only shoot mil spec. ammo out of it though! |
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The short stroke problem has nothing to do with the ammo... It has to do with the design of the gas piston.. It uses 2 piston rings, that must be out of alignment for it to function properly.
Randomly, the piston rings go into alignment while shooting and it chokes. It can take thousands of rounds before the first time it happens to you, or just a dozen rounds. It is completely random, and that is perhaps the worst part of that malfunction. |
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Quoted:
The short stroke problem has nothing to do with the ammo... It has to do with the design of the gas piston.. It uses 2 piston rings, that must be out of alignment for it to function properly. Randomly, the piston rings go into alignment while shooting and it chokes. It can take thousands of rounds before the first time it happens to you, or just a dozen rounds. It is completely random, and that is perhaps the worst part of that malfunction. I wonder if there is any way to correct this? sort of along the lines of a McFarland one piece gas ring like on the ar15! |
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Quoted:
I wonder if there is any way to correct this? sort of along the lines of a McFarland one piece gas ring like on the ar15! Something like that would probably fix it... that or if the bolt had little nubs keeping the rings in place and out of alignment.... if I had kept it I had thought about doing that, but it would have been a pain since the piston is chromed. |
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the trigger is typical bullpup trigger, it does suck, i havent heard of the latter problems though, mine runs like a clock, it has the typical bullpup advantages and typical disadvantages. Long barrel good great performance in a package that is a about an inch or 2 shorter than a fully collapsed ar, less recoil, you can shoulder it more like a pdw, down the center of your chest making follow ups super fast, but it uses a lot of plastic. Quoted: Yep, it's just not very good. Unless you like super heavy trigger pulls, and gas systems that are inherently flawed and cause random short strokes that can't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time. |
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Quoted: The short stroke problem has nothing to do with the ammo... It has to do with the design of the gas piston.. It uses 2 piston rings, that must be out of alignment for it to function properly. Randomly, the piston rings go into alignment while shooting and it chokes. It can take thousands of rounds before the first time it happens to you, or just a dozen rounds. It is completely random, and that is perhaps the worst part of that malfunction. Bullshit. ETA: The FS2000 and other short stroke piston operated rifles have a small hole in the gas block that leads to the outside world. That hole is essentially a pressure bleed valve that operates with the piston system. This is to ensure a constant operating pressure regardless of the consistency of the ammunition. If, like you say, the gas rings line up and allow gas to leak around the piston, all that would happen is decrease the piston gas bleed duration; or, less gas will be diverted away from the action to compensate. In other words, the required pressure impulse to operate the system is significantly less than you think, and a tiny gap in the gas rings will have no effect as the system is just going to dump pressure when it has enough to operate anyway. Same thing happens when AR bolt gas rings line up... the system still operates. In fact, the AR will still operate with only one gas ring. The piston ring gap will never allow enough gas to bypass to cause short-stroking. It is pure physics. ETA2: Or, let me put it this way: Do you think the engineers at FNH, arguably some of the most knowledgeable and capable small arms engineers in the world, who spent 20 years and millions of dollars designing the F2000 weapon system to be a rugged and reliable military grade rifle, who tested that system to failure thousands of times, would miss such a glaring and simple operational deficiency? |
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Quoted:
Bullshit. ETA: The FS2000 and other short stroke piston operated rifles have a small hole in the gas block that leads to the outside world. That hole is essentially a pressure bleed valve that operates with the piston system. This is to ensure a constant operating pressure regardless of the consistency of the ammunition. If, like you say, the gas rings line up and allow gas to leak around the piston, all that would happen is decrease the piston gas bleed duration; or, less gas will be diverted away from the action to compensate. In other words, the required pressure impulse to operate the system is significantly less than you think, and a tiny gap in the gas rings will have no effect as the system is just going to dump pressure when it has enough to operate anyway. Same thing happens when AR bolt gas rings line up... the system still operates. In fact, the AR will still operate with only one gas ring. The piston ring gap will never allow enough gas to bypass to cause short-stroking. It is pure physics. ETA2: Or, let me put it this way: Do you think the engineers at FNH, arguably some of the most knowledgeable and capable small arms engineers in the world, who spent 20 years and millions of dollars designing the F2000 weapon system to be a rugged and reliable military grade rifle, who tested that system to failure thousands of times, would miss such a glaring and simple operational deficiency? Big talk... Here's my challenge to you. On video(you don't have to show your face or anything like that)... Video tape you with a FS2000, take the gas piston out, line up the the piston rings, so the gap is in alignment. Clearly show they are in alignment then in plane view put the gas piston back in. Load up a magazine with 5+ rounds and try to go through them on video.... Do this all in one video straight through so there can be no editing. Prove me wrong. Frankly you won't be able to. I don't know how much trigger time you have on an FS2000, but I can tell you I have just south of 2000 rounds of trigger time. I doubt you even own a FS2000 if you did you would know the manual emphasizes keeping the piston rings out of alignment... why do you think the manual does that?... But that doesn't matter, just make a video like I described and prove me wrong... if you can 
You're right companies with multi-million dollar engineering budgets can never mess up. Ever hear of a little company called Toyota? |
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Quoted:
take the gas piston out, line up the the piston rings, so the gap is in alignment. Clearly show they are in alignment then in plane view put the gas piston back in. Load up a magazine with 5+ rounds and try to go through them on video.... Do this all in one video straight through so there can be no editing. I have no dog in this fight. But you have me curious, I will give it a shot (Without video) next time I hit the range (I was going to go today but the snow ended that idea!). |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
take the gas piston out, line up the the piston rings, so the gap is in alignment. Clearly show they are in alignment then in plane view put the gas piston back in. Load up a magazine with 5+ rounds and try to go through them on video.... Do this all in one video straight through so there can be no editing. I have no dog in this fight. But you have me curious, I will give it a shot (Without video) next time I hit the range (I was going to go today but the snow ended that idea!). Interesting, I do recall something in the manual about the positioning of the piston rings. Hell… I’ll give it a go as well just to see what happens, that is… when the weather gets better 
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Quoted: Interesting, I do recall something in the manual about the positioning of the piston rings. Hell… I’ll give it a go as well just to see what happens, that is… when the weather gets better Yes, it is in the manual. What the manual doesn't say is if gas leaks affect reliability. It simply says keep them out of alignment to avoid gas leaks. A thing to note is the military teaches infantrymen to keep the gas rings on their M-16/M-4 bolts out of alignment for reliability. The truth is, the rifles will run regardless of alignment, even with only one ring intact. The bolt/carrier assembly on an AR/M-4/M-16 is a piston system. Also, look at the gas plug on your gas block. Notice that little hole? Switch to inclement. Notice the hole rotates to a smaller one? Bleed valve. It vents gas directly from the gas system as a matter of operation. I'm not going to post a video. For one, I don't have a video camera and will not buy one for an internet argument. Second, I simply don't want to post a video. However, how about we have any FS2000 owner interested experiment with their rifles and post their findings? That way, if I'm right, you can't claim video editing shenanigans. Simple: use several kinds of ammo, align the three gas rings and shoot. If it runs, remove a gas ring and shoot some more. Keep going until you get the rifle to fail. Use the inclement gas setting and see how far you get. If the rifles short stroke, I'll man up and admit I'm wrong. I own FS2000 #6215 purchased in October 2006. I lost round count a long time ago, but I easily have more than 4000 including various milsurp, steel cased stuff, and commercially loaded stuff including Igman, Aguila, Federal, Remington, etc. and never had a malfunction not related to user error or bad magazines/shitty surplus ammo. The rifle has never short stroked. |
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As I mentioned above I have also shot this rifle several times, probably have close to 1K rounds out of it. Want proof? 
and me shooting it in OCT 2007 at Niagara Shooting Range 
ETA: Same range same day ARFCOM represent (In before you say I am not shooting the FS2000 in that picture its my AR): 
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Quoted:
The short stroke problem has nothing to do with the ammo... It has to do with the design of the gas piston.. It uses 2 piston rings, that must be out of alignment for it to function properly. Randomly, the piston rings go into alignment while shooting and it chokes. It can take thousands of rounds before the first time it happens to you, or just a dozen rounds. It is completely random, and that is perhaps the worst part of that malfunction. Gas pushes on the piston face, not the rings. The rings just limit blowby/carbon fouling by creating a tighter seal. If rings were required, the SKS, AK, VZ-58, and other ringless piston designs would not work. More likely that your problem gun has a manufacturing defect (incorrectly sized or positioned gas port, etc) |
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Yes. "Big Talk" indeed. Quoted: Quoted: Bullshit. ETA: The FS2000 and other short stroke piston operated rifles have a small hole in the gas block that leads to the outside world. That hole is essentially a pressure bleed valve that operates with the piston system. This is to ensure a constant operating pressure regardless of the consistency of the ammunition. If, like you say, the gas rings line up and allow gas to leak around the piston, all that would happen is decrease the piston gas bleed duration; or, less gas will be diverted away from the action to compensate. In other words, the required pressure impulse to operate the system is significantly less than you think, and a tiny gap in the gas rings will have no effect as the system is just going to dump pressure when it has enough to operate anyway. Same thing happens when AR bolt gas rings line up... the system still operates. In fact, the AR will still operate with only one gas ring. The piston ring gap will never allow enough gas to bypass to cause short-stroking. It is pure physics. ETA2: Or, let me put it this way: Do you think the engineers at FNH, arguably some of the most knowledgeable and capable small arms engineers in the world, who spent 20 years and millions of dollars designing the F2000 weapon system to be a rugged and reliable military grade rifle, who tested that system to failure thousands of times, would miss such a glaring and simple operational deficiency? Big talk... Here's my challenge to you. On video(you don't have to show your face or anything like that)... Video tape you with a FS2000, take the gas piston out, line up the the piston rings, so the gap is in alignment. Clearly show they are in alignment then in plane view put the gas piston back in. Load up a magazine with 5+ rounds and try to go through them on video.... Do this all in one video straight through so there can be no editing. Prove me wrong. Frankly you won't be able to. I don't know how much trigger time you have on an FS2000, but I can tell you I have just south of 2000 rounds of trigger time. I doubt you even own a FS2000 if you did you would know the manual emphasizes keeping the piston rings out of alignment... why do you think the manual does that?... But that doesn't matter, just make a video like I described and prove me wrong... if you can You're right companies with multi-million dollar engineering budgets can never mess up. Ever hear of a little company called Toyota? |
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Quoted: Yes. "Big Talk" indeed. Thank you! A much more thorough test than I was hoping for. My rifle was run on 30-rounds each South African, Wolf 55-gr. and Radway. No malfunctions, though I didn't take the piston out until it was all said and done. My rings were also not aligned after, all three were mixed up. The recoil assembly was a little dirtier than it would have been otherwise, and The piston itself was filthy. Let's put this myth to bed. The FS2000 doesn't require all three rings to be aligned for reliable operation. If you're experiencing short strokes, there's something else wrong. |
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I gave mine a try today.
Lined up the slots, Fired 2 mags, All ok. Checked the piston, slots no longer lined up. Repeated a 2nd time, still good, No malfunctions! PS: I have had the gun for a couple of years now I like the gun but I am still a little concerned about all the plastic parts! |