[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fendry WCCM (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 12/17/2007 10:14:15 AM EDT
| Does anyone have contact info for Jim Fendry's office? If so, could you please pass it along to me, thanks. |
You can easily get a hold of Dick. He even has his own web site. We have an asshole for a governor. We have pussies who vote in Madison and Milwaukee and scattered throughout the state. That is why we don't have CCW. |
I don't see the link in your sig to the EFFECTIVE pro-gun movement which you are currently leading...... Are you just blowing off steam, or do you actually have a plan? |
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Knight, I never said I was a leader of this movement or that I had a website. I am a strong supporter and have donated lots of money to various parties in Wisconsin with nothing to show for it. I have made numerous suggestions to the "leadership". All I get in return is either rejection of those ideas or the perpetual plea that it might hurt the grand secret squirrel strategy that is only know to the true cognoscenti. Recently one of the leaders said in effect "there is nothing we can do right now with Doyle in office". I beg to differ. Here are a few ideas. Organize (recruit a county chairman for example) throughout the state. Support and help implement Gene German's open carry resolution idea. Develop and publish a message / slogan for the movement. Develop some CCW talking points and distribute them amongst the faithful. Have the leadership actually get trained and apply for an out state CCW permit. Benchmark other states by working with the leadership there on how they were successful. Meet with JB Van Hollen and solicit his opinion on the Vegas case. Can he help us? Host an event with the local media to educate them on guns and CCW. Maybe a real website would be a good idea. See Minnesota, Ohio, Missouri et al. These ideas only work when there is effective leadership and support. We just don't have it here. You may not like the message but I think its hard to argue with the truth. I know of several strong contributors to our movement who have stopped giving because of the perception that there is a real lack of effort from the leadership on this issue. Jeff |
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OK, Jeff. Which of those tasks are you willing to take on? And which of those tactics will get a CCW bill passed? Much of what you're talking about involves educating the public. I don't believe that concealed carry is even on the public's radar. It's just not a huge issue. I'm not saying that it wouldn't hurt to educate the public, but I don't see it as being particularly helpful. Gary Sherman, Terry Van Akkeren and John Steinbrink all had very good records on gun issues. If we had any governor other than Doyle, I don't think we would have seen the bill vetoed. Sherman, Van Akkeren and Steinbrink flipped to protect the leader of their party. The Republicans would have done the same thing. (In fact, they did. They never allowed a CCW bill to reach Thompson's desk because he didn't want to sign it, and he didn't want to have to veto it). If you're willing to try some things, let me know. But getting volunteers is extremely tough, especially now. As for Jim Fendry not having a website or email: he's nearly 70 years old, doesn't like computers, doesn't want emails, and wants to retire. One more thing. One big reason we don't have a powerful statewide gun group is that nobody wants to pay someone to run it. The time required for someone to head up such a group would preclude him from having a full-time job. An exception is the Safari Club. They hired former state senator Bob Welch as a part-time lobbyist for hunting issues. The amount they're paying him isn't huge, but it's not chump change, either. But the rest of the gun community just seems to want someone to do a whole lot of work for free. Maybe that's why volunteers burn out. |
Well you know how something becomes an issue and gets on peoples radar right? You make it an issue. Thats what every other group screaming for .gov attention does. If we don't make it an issue it won't become one till the next time a bill goes before the legislature, by then it's to late to try and get people to see that CCW is not a bad thing when law abiding citizens are the ones who want to carry concealed weapons. We need to be basicly be calling bullshit on the crap the media will spew forth before they even get a chance to do it. Also why has no one heard anything more form this supposed new group that was formed? |
Add the fact that the Gov has line-item veto powers and that you cant slip the CCW bill into existing laws and force it to pass, you have an EXCELLENT statement there. CCW gives LAW ABIDING people the ability to protect themself. CCW can generate REVENUE for the state by charging for permits and trainings/qualifications. Our political system is too divided in my opinion. It seems like Im one of few poeple here who doesnt hate Jim Doyle. I dont necessarily LIKE him, but I can tolerate him as Governor. We need more COMPROMISE in our government. Everyone wants everything to get their own way, and nothing in between, which means most politicians are either loved or hated. If people could come to some sort of COMPROMISE, then I would think CCW would've been passed years ago. I would think the majority of people in WIsconsin would actually embrace CCW laws, but since most voters in Wisconsin are Democrat, the politicians refuse to break political party stances and a bill allowing CCW never passes. |
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one thing that no ones has touched on, the Senate Majotiy leader, Is a Nurse, that is very Anti gun. a concealed carry Assembly Bill, if it passed the Assembly..would have to get pass her in order for it to go to Commitee, for a floor vote & that won't happen. Its exactly that same reason why Tommy Thompson never got a CCW bill on his desk, the Senate Majotiy leader Chuck Chvala at that time hated guns, CCW legislation never made it to commitee. SO, Not only do we need a new Governor, but a pro gun Senate Majority Leader.. GOOD LUCK !!! |
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WHAT IS STOPPING YOU FROM CARRYING? If it's permission, keep waiting. Is it the fine? Then find a way to protect law abiding people from the legal system-LEGAL DEFENSE FUND- LEGAL- criminal and CIVIL ACTION! and economic SUPPORT. That is the only tactic that will help us. That is what will help those who choose to exercise thier right. It will help those who want to exercise thier right. c361 bc |
Thanks for the update. |
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Dick, Instead of playing J'acuse perhaps we should be working together. Leaders facilitate cooperation and dialog not division. Bulletcatcher, You have a point. For me rather than contribute to one of the ineffective groups we are saddled with today, perhaps the best use of my money is set up a trust which pays the legal fees of those who are prosecuted for lawful open or concealed carry. Jeff |
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I would prefer to carry LEGALLY & not violate the law, like the criminals are doing. plus, you get pinched for concealed carry, misdimenor or not.. & your get a Criminal Record.  Untill we get a pro gun, Governor, Senate Majority leader & a few more gun friendly senators & Assemblymen...CCW is a very dead horse in Wisconsin for some time to come. |
I remember volunteering on this very site and nobody ever contacted me. I guess you had enough people at the time. Edit: If someone wants to pay me 60-70K a year I would be happy to be the top dog and do the work as a full time job. Then again maybe it is easier to move to a free state then fight a battle nobody seems to want to fight. |
The only thing we can do as Wisconsin residents to get CCW passed & make it Legal is to conitunally contact (( Bug )) our Senators, Assembly people & our Governor ( waste of time & postage, I know ) , a handfull ( 5 - 10 - 15- 50 - 100 -300 Like minded Volunteers & even a full time paid lobbiest will not make a dent in this issue or bring us any closer to getting CCW legal. When we did have pro gun people in the Senate & Assembly we still lost from a Veto, then we lost after trying a veto overide.....so, please understand me, I am for CCW 125%, BUT I am not blind to reality, Wisconsin aint getting CCW for along time. Unless we have a horrible Mall or Church shooting & 25 - 50 or more die becuase a flipped out person goes on a killing rampage... Doyle wont make this legal untill he has 50 thousand people marching on the state capitol carrying nooses, pitch forks, torches & demanding he be drawn and quartered...
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Judy Robson is no longer Senate majority leader. The Democrats booted her out after the budget deal. The new Senate majority leader is Senator Russ Decker of the Wausau area. He's voted for the CCW bill every time, and voted for the veto overrides. He's also not particularly fond of Doyle. But he has publicly stated that he doesn't think that there would be a Senate vote on a concealed carry bill, because Doyle will veto such a bill again, and there aren't the votes to override. Can't argue with him on that. XM15e2sGreenBay, when we had the 2002 motion to "pull" the CCW bill from committee to the Senate floor, Chvala did indeed kill it. But the governor at that time was McCallum, and he was ready to sign. I'm still convinced that, if we'd given Chvala around $30,000, he would have allowed a floor vote on the bill. And we had the votes to pass, easily. Plus, the bill had already passed the Assembly. But how do you go about asking for contributions to bribe a politician? As for compromising with Doyle on this, look at Doyle's record. There's no way he would ever come to the table on this. He's as anti-gun as they come. |
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Thank you for correcting me on a few items, I was relatively new to the CCW fight, when McCallum was Gov so please accept my appology for being historicly under educated on the matter & I did not know that Judy Robinson had been ousted (( GOOD NEWS )), I agree with you, as long as we got (( SHITHEAD, I mean Doyle )) we are screwed. maybe in 2010 we can get rid of his ass. Santa all I want for Christmas besides a new Magpul Masada, Is for Governor Doyle to fall deathly ill & to circum to his illness. I have been a good boy this year, I don't really think I am asking for alot.
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For 'PC' sake you'd want to call it a legal defense fund, but the philosophy is ATTACK. The objective is not to make a lot of cases and try to win them but make law enforcers (fiscally) afraid of niot just prosecuting but arresting citizens that ccw. It's about money and intimidation, slappy suits, tieing up manpower and money, fucking with peoples budgets, hurt their wallet. Remember THX1138! 500 people INVESTING 100 bucks would build a formidable network of lawyers and bondsmen, if that 100 bucks only got me out of holding and bailed out quickly it would be worth it. One or two succsessful lawsuits would eliminate the need for raising money and would start to pay dividends to investors. Activists and administrators can be paid, lobbyists can be funded with the spoils. Dividends can be paid to members. Think like a wolf, not a sheep folks. ETA: ( not directed at any post or person, :) ) That is what anti ccw is about, power, not defense. Breaking thier wallets will work before breaking that greed for power. c361 bc |
I'm confused how this would work. How would bonding people out and getting them a lawyer affect budgets or significantly tie up staff? The only way I see this having that effect is if there were massive amounts of CCW arrests, like mass civil disobedience. And if we had that level of dedication, support, or interest in the issue, CCW would have been passed by the legislature already. Maybe I'm missing a key point of the concept?
Lawsuits against who, because they did what? Again, I don't follow how this would work. Since CCW off your own property has been ruled almost entirely illegal, what civil lawsuits are you going to win, and who would you file them against? |
concealedcampus.org Made it hot. Looks nice! I wish I would have made it to the secret squirrel strategy meetings...because from where I'm sitting, it looks like absolutely nothing is going on, nothing is planned, and nothing will be forthcoming. (I'm not saying that's the case, because obviously I know nothing about anything going on behind the scenes. But the complete lack of visible movement makes me feel very pessimistic.) I just read an article that Doyle hasn't decided whether he'll run for re-election (in 2010), but he's already started fundraising "just in case" he decides to run. So he ought to have another record war chest. On another note, Justice Abrahamson has said she'll run for a fourth 10-year term on the Supreme Court. |
Glenn thats kind of my point about why CCW is not on peoples radar as Dick pointed out. It's not on their radar because no one is putting it there. Yah know the intersection of Hwy J and Hwy 20 used to be a terrible intersection for accidents. Some of the locals that lived in the area tried to get some changes to the signage to make it safer. they tried, it didn't work, they gave up. Everyone that is execpt one 17 year old high school student. She got on the county DOT and the state, and she stayed on them for a good bit of time. Eventually things were changed, lights were added, better markings were added and better signage was added. The intersection is now no where near as bad as it was for accidents. It was the result of one squeeky wheel not stopping. It was one person keeping the issue alive and in peoples faces till something was done to correct the issue. If one 17 year old can get a county to do all that, what the hell is wrong with the pro-gun movment in this state that we can't keep CCW as an activly talked about subject with not only our legislaters, but with the people in this state. Why was there no "hey look a CCW holder saved 100's of lives in Colorado" press release from WCCA? or even WGO(yah yah I know) or other pro-gun groups? The point being that some parts of the movment are to hell bent on legislation, on making us request permisssion to exercise a constitutional right. Nothing prohibits me from legaly owning or possesing a firearm in this state. As such I should need no governmets permission to carry it in any manner I feel fit to carry it. Our constitution gives the right with no restriction, it's not like other states where the restriction is writen into the amendment. I mean seriously we are getting no closer to CCW because no one in an accepted organisation is willing to work on anything other than legislation. Without the backing of the established and respected pro-gun organisations in this state, no other option is going to get any notice, or any chance because people will not be willing to get involved if one of the acepted oragnisations is not involved. It's not because of Doyle being in office, it's because our so called Pro-gun leadership has no fucking balls left for the fight that has to be fought now, not a year from now, not when Doyle is out of office. |
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Getting people out of lockup and represented would be the priority. After that every action can be scrutinized, before during and after the arrest. CCW does not have to be the meal ticket. Gotta pick your fights, IANAL, I'm sure something profitable to a litigator would present itself sooner or later. If no one keeps 'watch' NOTHING will happen. c361 bc |
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or, organize a CCW mass protest at the Capitol in Madison. For it to be effective & possibly shut down the capitol we would need at least 1000 - 2000 pro gun Wisconsin residents there , then we contact the media the day before, after the photo session, we all go in a speak to our senators & assembly people. then we all meet up & storm the Governors office.. We would need Massad Ayoub as he is really well know. This would be one way, We need to make this a grass roots effort. |
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glenn_r, there was nothing secret about the meeting. And there's nothing extra-special in the plans. Many people have alluded to the idea on many different gun forums. I wish there was more going on, but nobody seems to be doing anything. Personally, I'm watching to see if people are going to follow through on what they've said they would do. Unless I'm missing something, our only options for getting CCW are the legislature and the supreme court. The legislature isn't going to do anything, and there's no case in the wings for the court. As for Doyle running in 2010, it does look like that's the case. Not only is he raising money, but one of his operatives made a comment to a reporter about a potential Republican challenger. "Bring it on," or words to that effect. |
Perhaps I worded my "secret squirrel" comment too strongly, and if so, I apologize. I just recall statements that certain things that are supposed to be in-the-works shouldn't be talked about on an open forum. I assumed these were developed at that meeting. I don't recall the votes of the WSC judges. Do you recall whether Abrahamson was pro-CCW or not? I'm just trying to get a handle on whether her re-election bid is good news or bad news. |
She's kinda this way kinda that way. I'd have to look it all up again but IIRC she dissented in part on both of the last two cases dealing with CCW. There is going to be a point where the court gets sick of punching holes in the statute. Then they'll just say bye-bye to it. We just need cases that don't fit into the previously punched hole, or just maybe they might but its kind of a grey area so not really but then again it could but we need clarification, type cases. Kinda like Fisher, just with different results. 
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If anyone knows what ABATE of Wisconsin is..it's a state motorcycle rights organization, it stands for , A Brotherhood Against Totalitarian Enactments. They were responsible for getting the Helmet law repealed back in the 70's & got it's reinstatement killed in the 80's. They had a Helmet Rally in Madison at the Capitol, a few thousand bikers rolled into Madison & SHUT the town down, I mean that. The media was all over it, they showed the elected officials in Madison that they ment business & not long after that the law was repealed. ABATE is a Grass roots organization- Just like the WCCA, The only difference....is that ABATE & it's membership actually did something about the Helmet law. I was on their Board of Directors at one time. I know there are a few thousand or more of us here in Wisconsin, that would like to see CCW here in this state, but until we unite and get together & actually do something about this issue that we feel most strongly about ( a 130 + year old obsolete law ), nothing is going to change. We need to get the word out, unite, organize & demonstrate our will to the law makers in Madison. 5 or 10 people can't do it, we all need to make a decision or we can wait another 2,3,4,5,6 or more years for it to become legal. If you wait for the courts to decide this, we might be old and very grey when it does become legal... Let me know what you think or not. |
So can you please tell us what the plan is? Who is going to do what? I for one don't seem to know what is going on, if anything at all. I have offered my services in the past and you nor anyone else has tried to contact me. I am not going to beg to help. I don't beg for anything. I have been out of work for 16 months now with oodles of time on my hands. If you don't want my help that is fine, just don't say that you are short on volunteers. Playing squeaky field mouse begging at the door for a scrap of cheese is IMHO not the way to get CCW. Some times you need to be the lion and let the kingdom hear your roar. I for one like XM's idea it does not even have to be an open carry march. If you get 4K-6K people to roll up on the state capitol, people will take notice. If it is televised others will see what we are doing and hopefully become more vocal. Put the governor on notice that we are tired of not having CCW and we are ready for a fight. This does not mean we cannot do fund raising and things like that. Raise money for air time on the local tv and radio stations and run informative commercials to educate people on CCW and it's benefits. It's high time to go into multi-vector assault mode, and attack from all fronts. It is unfortunate to say, but we are waging war and fighting for a freedom we already have and cannot use. The time to act is now! |
+ 1 ...if not now, with in a few months...
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Have to wonder if the consumptive user groups( Wisconsin bear hunter,Wisconsin Trapper Association and so on) were asked to participate. those 2 groups would benefit greatly from a ccw law. Trappers use firearms for dispatch and so do bear hunters and everytime they get in and out of their vehicle they have reload their firearms. I know the bear Hunters and Trapper both have very good relationships with people in Madison. Wisconsin Wildlife Federation also would be another place to seek a partnership. I also have thrown my name in the ring to help and was never asked or contacted to help so again the not enough volunteers does not fly. |
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For me if I volunteer my services to something & if that something never calls me, I don't get discouraged, I just keep on doing it my self untill they do call. I personally would like to see us all Unite of this common front & get something rolling. There has been nothing but talk for 2 years now. You right, lets get all these various hunting & gun groups conncected, then we can talk about the next step ( a CCW Rally in Madison ) We don't need any one groups permission to do it, but cooperation & unity is crucial, speaking with one voice, get the NRA people, WCCM, bear hunters, trappers, joe & jane blow that sits at home...Gun store owners. easily we could get a couple thousand people together, but the word has to get out & that means more than just putting a thread on Afrcom, Every Gun & Hunting group would have to alert their membership, We would need to get the NRA Involved, they have an email alert system on urgent gun issues. A date needs to be picked, when the legislature is in session & a rally needs to be organized. An open carry Rally, I think would really be asking for trouble with Capitol Police. We would not even get close to the Capitol wearing Guns. The next thing you would see is the riot squads. |
Damn straight on that FT!!! |
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I'm new to Wisconsin (been here about 6 months) and have followed this thread with interest. I agree that the time to act is now. Waiting around for the stars to align so we have the right governor and the right legislators in the right positions means that nothing will ever happen. We need to make the stars align. I've seen what Virginia Citizen's Defense League can do (I moved from Virginia), and they are powerful. They are an all volunteer, grassroots organization. As far as I can tell they get their political muscle by swamping state legislature meetings, city council meetings, etc. They also have a legal defense fund to help people fight bad laws in the courts. VCDL makes the stars align in Virginia for gun rights. I don't know if one of the groups that already exists here in Wisconsin can be transformed into a similar organization, or if a new group needs to be started. I'm willing to help out wherever it is needed. |
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Wisconsin has a very good CCW Organization, its called the WCCM ( Wisconsin concealed carry Movement. com ) We would need to ge them involved in this as they can contact people & assist in organizing something big like this. We also need to volunteer our time & talents to get the word out. If someone here knows the Legislative calander in Madison, a date needs to be selected , preferable in a month or two, which would give people time to ask off work, find other people in their area's of the state to car pool, etc for the Madison Rally. We really need at least a few thousand people to turn out or this will be nothing but a bad joke & it would also tell our law makers in Madison that the people of Wisconsin are not serious about concealed carry. We would need volunteers to make up press releases to notify the media all over the state, TV, Radio , news papers, volunteers to make up flyers for the guns stores in the state, guns organizations, hunting organizations, sportsman clubs, etc. To Organize a Rally in the Capitol is not an easy thing. We would be counting on people to call in sick, and use vacation days, drive a few hours, donate their gas to this cause. If done right this could be the biggest to hit the state in a long time....
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Getting a few thousand people in 2 months is not realistic. I'd shoot for maybe 6 months. You don't even know if you can get the various organizations involved, even if they do, I doubt they have thousands of members standing by ready to ask off work to go to Madison. Sorry, I just dont see it happening. Maybe 100? I doubt you'd get that even. |
You are 100% correct. I do internet marketing, website design, and grassroots internet activism daily at my job, and the internet is probably the most effective tool next to 4k people doing an open-carry march in Madison. I'm sorry but if you're not willing to use the technology of the last 15 years, you have no chance at all. I did a google search and though google comes up with a link to the wcm website, I got a 404 error.... along with the search I got an article about the Fullauto shoot, and it brings negative attention to the WCCM. If you want to be taken seriously I'd recommend the following: 1- Professional Website 2- All of your staff needs to be active with e-mail (including the leader!) 3- Activism e-mail tool (people can signup for e-mail alerts, use this to have them e-mail politicians, its very effective when done right) 4- Get stuff on Facebook, YouTube, Myspace, Meetup, ASAP... (super important!) Look professional and people will help and donate money. We have enough concerned citizens in Wisconsin but most people think negative when it comes to WCCM or Jim Fendry mainly because they think nothing gets accomplished and would rather donate to the NRA, GOA, etc... |
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please don't take we wrong here, but that is one of the reasons we don't have CCW in this state, in 2 months time and we couldnt get 100 ? Its really simple either you want CCW & your willing to do what it takes & have enough passion to fight for it...or your ok with waiting another 10 -15 years until the state gradually goes CCW. If you dont want to take off a day from work, then don't...since they are only in session during the week, if everyone decides not to sacrific a days pay..then CCW will only be a dream. Being an activist means, sacrificing. But, chances are your 100%right , we could wait a year & not get 200 marchers...most gun owners in this state that want CCW can talk the talk & piss and moan, but would not dare to take a day off of work to walk the walk, and actually do something more than complain.. In any event i do my part on a monthly basis, Write letters ( that involve postage ) send emails & make telephone calls to all of my legislators..constantly bugging them about Concealed carry. How many here even bother to do that ? |
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OK, guys, look. I started the WCCA back in 2001 all by myself. I spent the following years trying to round up volunteers for gun shows around the state, and getting people to Madison for committee hearings and floor votes. Volunteers came and went. While this was all going on, I wasn't putting as much time as I should have been into my own business. So, now, I find myself getting jealous when people talk about buying guns, because I can't afford to. And I feel that I wasted all that time driving around the state instead of building up my business. The largest number of people we had at the Capitol was about 200 for a committee hearing, and that was well-publicized. So, how to get thousands of people to a rally in Madison? I'd sure love to hear ideas on that. If someone has tried contacting me, and I didn't return the call, I'm sorry. I'm trying to eke out a living right now, and I don't have the time to devote to the cause that I was putting in a couple of years ago. One of the purposes of the January meeting was to divide up the workload so that one person (me) wasn't doing the majority of the work. There's no way that a single person can do everything that needs to be done. Since that January meeting, nothing's been done. Part of the reason nothing has been done is that nobody seems to know what to do. Doyle will veto any CCW bill. If there's a way to force him to sign a bill, someone should speak up, because the NRA and Gunderson and the others would love to hear about it. DavidK, you got a 404 error on the site? Did you go to www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com? I redid the site, tested it, and everything was working fine. I'll check on that. The www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.org site hasn't been updated in a long time, because that's for the political action committee, and almost nobody ever uses that site. |
The above is why so many of us feel like this:  . People have been suggesting "what to do" for a long time now and all through this thread. But WCCA only sees one and only one thing to do: legislation.Partial 'What to do List': Open carry marches. Legal defense fund - both to help individuals fight an unconstitutional charge AND to be ready to push a case up the court system to challenge the CCW law. Contact the WI AG. Improve organization / communication with the Internet / E-mail / Etc. (I tried the website and it doesn't work - 'connection reset'). These are just the top few things mentioned in this thread. If you want people to help, volunteer, etc, you need to listen to what people want to do and actually try doing things that the people that want to volunteer, want to do. You say yourself that legislation is a dead end for the near future, but you refuse to try anything else. Try doing more things besides the legislation only route and you will get volunteers. Keep doing the same thing and you will get the same results. |
Hmm where have I heard that before........Oh yah FMD 
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein |
OK, let me address those points. Open carry marches. Anyone is able to organize one. The WCCA board members, after talking with the NRA and Gunderson and others, have decided that there's nothing to be gained by them now. Please tell me what effect the marches would have, other than giving the media a "circus" story to run? What outcome do you expect from marches? Legal defense fund. Who do you think got the ball rolling for funding Andres Vegas' defense? His attorney didn't defend him for free. We can certainly raise funds for another good defendant, but we don't have one. Vegas was the best case possible, which DA John Chisolm (and probably Doyle) realized. That's why the Vegas case went no further than a circuit court. It's hard to get a supreme court case without a defendant. Contact the AG. Already in the works. Improve communication/email. Hmmm, seems like the WCCA started doing that years ago. But what is there to report right now? As for the website, I tested it on a couple of different computers and it works fine. Have you tried it lately? If it's not working for you, please let me know which OS you're using and what browser. I also don't understand the objection to focusing on legislation. Other than legislation or a supreme court decision, how are we going to get legalized CCW in Wisconsin? If someone else has better ideas on how to run the group, I'll resign my board position and that person can take it. That's not a "I'm taking my ball and going home" statement. I mean it. If changing the leadership will make a difference, I'm all for it. |